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Jenna Ellis: I love talking about the things of God. Because of truth and the biblical worldview. The U.S. constitution obligates our government to promot, preserve and protect the rights that our founders recognize come from God our creator, not our government. I believe that scripture in the Bible is very clear that God is the one that raised up each of you and God has allowed us to be brought here to this specific moment in time.

 This is Jenna Ellis in the morning.

Jenna Ellis: Good morning. Good morning.

Christian leaders need to talk more about hell, says Braxton Hunter

Well, for a great 30,000 foot perspective like we do occasionally on this program, it is time to talk about hell. Yes, I know that's a really exciting topic, but it's actually one that Christians and pastors need to talk about more because as they, as a lot of people often say, you know, life is short, enjoy it. I say eternity is long, so prepare for it. And this topic, back in the news and I think, actually interestingly, kind of in a broader sort of pop culture culture, X social media kind of phenomenon, is coming about because of Kirk Cameron and his podcast and the title of that is are we Wrong about Hell? And so this debate has kind of been ongoing for the last week and I wanted to take today to drill down into what the topic of annihilationism actually is, what Christians who adhere to that view of scripture are actually saying because we don't want to ever get into the straw mans and basically put up a false argument of what our opponents are, are saying and then knock it down easily. We want to be faithful to describe what these people are actually arguing and then we can talk about whether or not that argument is true in light of scripture. And so, so Kirk Cameron was basically arguing that he no longer believes in what's called eternal conscious torment for the wicked, which he suggests is cruel and unusual punishment, which is interesting. He's borrowing the language of the U.S. constitution. That's not actually, you know, anything that, that is rooted necessarily in scripture in terms of that that overall phrasing, when we talk about justice, we talk about those concepts. I, obviously the government should be bound to the nature and character of God, who is perfectly just. but to suggest that eternal conscious torment is cruel and unusual punishment is presuming a definition of God and his justice that maybe we need to push back on. So he leads, he leans, he says heavily toward annihilationism, saying explicitly that it fits the character of God. So a lot of theologians and Christians have commented on this. And it seems like this kind of, very narrow sort of doctrine, which is not mainstream in, the broader Protestant view, is resurfacing on social media. And it seems like, oddly, there are a lot of doctrines that, that either were a little bit antiquated or a very narrow FAU following that suddenly become more broad just because someone with a popular platform like a Kirk Cameron sees something and then decides that they want to ascribe to that theory or they want to bring it more mainstream. So we need to always talk about these things because the goal for the Christian is to be faithful to the word of God and to the truth as God himself prescribes it. And as C.S. lewis described in Mere Christianity, the truth of the reality to which we are presented. And so we are not in the business, of course, of putting up a false Jesus or a false gospel and the truth as we would prefer it, but the truth that is, and the nature and character of God, of who he actually is and reveals himself to be, not just what we think, would fit in line with his character, because we happen to prefer it. So with that whole, kind of backdrop to this conversation, let's welcome in Dr. Braxton Hunter, who's the president of Trinity Seminary for this conversation.

Dr. Braxton Hunter joins us to discuss eternal conscious torment and hell

And Dr. Hunter, I really appreciate, you joining for this full show as we, kind of dissect this, this perspective on hell. And so let's start first with kind of, the definitions broadly, because there are some, Christians who don't even believe in the concept of hell, which is kind of where annihilationism is, that eternal conscious punishment, somehow is not a part of justice. So how would they argue this? And how should we even set up this conversation?

Dr. Braxton Hunter: Yeah, so first of all, thanks so much for having me on the show. I'm so thrilled to be here. I would say that it's important to understand that for many who are conditionalists, that's the term we're using for, those people who hold to annihilationism, as you say, for those folks and for those who believe in eternal conscious torments, the ones that people like Kirk Cameron, I think it's important to understand that they often want to, on both sides emphasize, number one, that we should get our perspective on this from the Bible, whatever the Bible teaches about this, that's what we should believe. And secondly, that, the judgment and justice of God, particularly the justice of God, is so important. I love that you said that. because ultimately God is a good God, but if he's a good God, He's a just God, even if that doesn't always fit our sensibilities. You know, if we were to capture some horrible world dictator or something, and we were to say, okay, well, now you've done this, let's just pat you on the back and let you go, well, that would not be good. And the reason it would not be good is because it wouldn't be just. And so we have this understanding of justice. And I think understanding that what the Bible teaches and that God is just in what he does is so important to this. I'm glad you highlighted it with that. I would say that conditional, well, eternal conscious torment, advocates the traditional view, the view that has been held by the majority of the church for most of its history. and that's. That's not even debatable. They would say that whatever the actual nature of hell is, it is eternal in the sense that it will go on forever without end. which is kind of hard to wrap your mind around that. But that's eternal without end. And then it is conscious. You will be consciously aware of your existence and of what's going on, and it will be torment of some sort. Now, some have cashed that out to literal hell fire and brimstone, as we typically think about it. some have cashed it out as kind of, like you mentioned, C.S. lewis, kind of an existence that is really, depressing, really, unsatisfying, miserable. you could be tormented in that sense. And so maybe it's not literal flames, maybe that's imagery, but it goes on forever. But the principal idea, however, one cashes that out on ect, Eternal conscious torment, is that it goes on forever. You're going to be aware of what's going on, and it will be tormenting in some sense. And then the conditionalist view, is called that because central to this idea is the idea that immortality is not something that is innate to man. it's not that your soul is just intrinsically immortal. And they would point to, say, First Timothy 6, 16, which says that only God has immortality. Or First Corinthians 15, talking about this mortal putting on immortality. Well, if the soul is not immortal intrinsically like that, so that it has to remain somewhere forever, which is kind of a part of the rationale for eternal conscious torment. Then what that would mean is that when, when you die, if your soul and your body are destroyed, then, Then that's, that's it. You didn't. The immortality is conditional upon saving grace and faith in Jesus Christ. And so if you don't have that, then you're not intrinsically immortal. And so you'll die, and they may say that you'll experience suffering when you die. And that may be in different degrees. It may be a fiery, and bloody death, when it happens, but that it will ultimately result in a state where the punishment goes on forever in that you'll be dead forever, but the death is something that will happen and you won't have a further conscious experience. So that's kind of a simple cashing out of those two views.

Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and I appreciate the definitions of those two views.

To determine whether annihilationism or eternal conscious punishment is correct biblical view

And because the question of immortality and the state of the human condition, then the next step to determine whether annihilationism or eternal conscious punishment, is the correct biblical view of hell, we need to then go to anthropology, right. And to talk about who, what is a human being by definition that's made in the image of God. And how do we understand human beings in light of scripture and what God has told us? Because if we take just the verses that you mentioned that these advocates for annihilationism, suggest that immortality or the, the the eternality of the soul is dependent on salvation, then it's really in, in my view, it's, it's it's taking these texts out of context and basically proof texting and saying that, you know, who alone is immortal. Well, God himself obviously, because he is perfect. He doesn't suffer. God the Father does not suffer death. And only by Jesus coming and putting on the human flesh, then he was able to complete the work of the cross. But I think that this is, you know, getting back to why we have to take the full counsel of scripture and then first determine what God says about the human being. So let's define that next.

Dr. Braxton Hunter: Yeah, so I think one of the reasons you're right that people will proof text on this, I think that one of the reasons that traditionalists will argue that, well no, whatever that means, and you gave a possible explanation there, whatever this mortal and putting on immortality or only God is immortal, whatever that means, it can't mean that we don't go on existing in some sense after physical death. And the reason for that is because, it seems like the Bible teaches that you will experience ongoing conscious, torment. And so it kind of comes back to the point in and of itself to get the anthropological point about that.

There are some biblical texts that seem to imply eternal conscious torment is true

So, then what we want to do next is go to some of those texts that seem to imply that traditionalism is true and that, this is a punishment that you will be consciously aware of and it will not end.

Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And. Yeah, go ahead.

Dr. Braxton Hunter: Yeah, so we could take a look at those for just a second. Now, I've got, pretty much everything in front of me that, the Bible might possibly be saying about hell. but let's go to some really clear, what seem like really clear answers to the traditionalist. If you go to Mark, chapter nine, it's, Jesus is talking. This is just after he says that if you cause one of these little ones to stumble, be better the millstone hung about your neck and thrown into the sea. And in verse 43 of Mark 9, he says, and if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than having your two hands to go into hell into unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin. And he goes on and says, if your eye causes you to sin, you should gouge it out. You should cut your foot off. And there's this repeated refrain, that, this fire that will not be quenched and a worm that does not die. Well, to someone who is an advocate for eternal conscious torment, the very traditional view of the church, they would say, well, what more do you want? Right? There you go. And you could go also. And I don't want to blast you with too much, data at once, but In Revelation chapter 14, it says, Then another angel, a third one, followed him, saying with a loud voice, if anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of his anger, and will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever. And so, without reading the rest of the text, in Revelation 20, we find out that the devil, who deceived them will be thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where he'll be tormented and the false prophet forever, day and night, forever. and then in Revelation 21, it even specifies the cowardly, the unbelieving, the abominable, the murderers, the sexually immoral person, sorcerers, idolaters, liars, will be part of the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. Now, I want to be clear that annihilationists have answers to these responses to these that should be considered. But these are some of the reasons that someone who affirms eternal, eternal conscious torment does. So he looks at this and he says, look, what more do you want? Right there. It describes this never ending thing that you'll be. That someone will be tormented day and night forever. That will be thrown in those who are immortal persons. I say we, hopefully not me, not if I believe what I do about Jesus, but into that lake of fire. And it gives this idea of this being never ending. So when you look at that, you're like, okay, well then whatever this means about this mortal putting on immortality, whatever it means to say that God is the only one that's immortal, it can't mean that there won't be a continued existence. So that speaks to the anthropological question because we think we have these texts here that seem to imply or directly state that there will be a continuing conscious experience.

Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And then also, what about Luke 16, which is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. And you know, when Lazarus dies and is carried by angels to Abraham's side and you know, paradise or heaven, the rich man dies and is buried, but then finds himself obviously consciously in torment in Hades or hell. And then the rich man pleads for Lazarus across, you know, this great chasm, to just simply, you know, put, cool his tongue because he's in this torment. And then he also asks Lazarus to warn his five brothers, to say, you know, you don't want to come here. And so this is, this is scripture basically showing an example of what, eternal punishment looks like. And certainly it's not just that, this person, this rich man, his torment was that he was then not conscious in the presence of the Lord for all eternity.

This is a text that is appealed to for eternal conscious torment and against conditionalism

Dr. Braxton Hunter: Yeah, this is, this is a text we should talk about for just a minute. One of the things I loved about what you said opening the show is that we don't want to strawman our opponent and we want to make sure we're getting their case down. And you're absolutely right. This is a text that is appealed to for eternal conscious torment and against conditionalism because of the things that were described that you're talking about there. one thing that I want to make kind of hopefully this is helpful, is that in the NewSong Testament, we have three. In the Bible, we have four words, that are translated, unfortunately, hell, instead of using the words that in the Greek or Hebrew, what it would. What the original words were. So those four words are Sheol, and that's mostly Old Testament. And it's a reference to death or the grave. Hades, which is used in Luke 16, which is kind of like the Greek equivalent of that. It's talking about a place of the dead, kind of a generic term for the place of the dead. then you have Tartarus, which is kind of, hard to discern. It may refer to a holding place of some sort, perhaps for the demonic. And then you have Gehenna. And Gehenna is understood by scholars on both sides of this debate to be the term that is used for most clearly, at least for what we're talking about when we're talking about hell after the judgment, Hell. So with Luke 16, what you have here is, if Grandma has passed away and Grandma is buried out here in the cemetery somewhere. Well, the judgment hasn't. The ultimate judgment hasn't happened yet. The new heaven and the new earth, and we get physical bodies and all of that. so where is Grandma right now? Well, we classically say, well, Grandma's in heaven, right? And I think that's fine. but it's an intermediate state. And what I mean by that is it's the state that a person who is in right now disembodied until the ultimate resurrection. And so, the intermediate state must be what Jesus is referring to there. And so, yes, it does give you these. These images of fire and pain and all these kind of things, and just a drop of water on my tongue and all those kind of things like that. On one side of the divide, a very hellish existence as we think of it. And then on the other side, you have Abraham's bosom, you have where, Lazarus is and all those kind of things. Well, the Greek word there is Hades, place of the dead. And so the debate between traditionalists and conditionalist is, number one, is this an event that's happening that Jesus is telling us about? And the case for that would be that it's not a parable because he uses proper names here. And then the conditionalist will say, well, hold on a second. Whatever that existence is, and whatever you think it might tell you about what's coming after the judgment, this is the intermediate state. That is. That is, perhaps where people are now where Grandma is now, hopefully she's on the Abraham's bosom, heavenly side of that. But it doesn't speak to the ultimate judgment of Gehenna. After, after the ultimate judgment, does that, does that help at all?

Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And so, so, so then taking that parable then, so that you're saying, or example, I guess it's, you know, whether it's supposed to be a story versus a literal event is, you know, kind of a threshold question. But then even taking that example from the Bible, then that really, then in what you're describing doesn't seem to be, one of the verses that is either for or against, considering whether, the eternal state of hell is ultimately an annihilationist view versus eternal conscious, punishment. And so, with that, you know, I think it's so important to separate what actually, it textually helps advance the argument or to oppose an opponent, versus, you know, one of these things that, you know, we don't want to be the proof texters, obviously. And so I appreciate you putting that into context. And so, let's take a break here really quickly. And my special guest this morning is Dr. Braxton Hunter, President of Trinity Seminary. He's staying with me throughout the hour as we do kind of a deep dive into this question of what is hell and what does that actually look like for the unbeliever, especially in light of what Kirk Cameron is suggesting. So we will be right back with.

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Jenna Ellis: What does hell actually look like for the unbeliever

Dr. Braxton Hunter: Welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.

Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. And I am here with my special guest this morning, Dr. Braxton Hunter, who's the president of Trinity Seminary. And we are discussing the concept of hell as the Bible, teaches and what we know from the truth of the word of God and what we should know about, what that actually looks like for the unbeliever. someone who dies their physical death and has not, taken hold of the truth of the gospel of Christ, has not been born again and so has not been, saved from their sin into the redemptive work of Christ. What does this actually look like for the unbeliever? And so in the first segment we kind of broke down, you know, some of, the definitions of the difference between annihilationism, which is basically that the human soul is not immortal, and so the unbeliever would simply cease to exist versus eternal conscious torment, that the soul lives on forever regardless of whether you're a believer or unbeliever. And so eternity looks very different, if you are a believer versus an unbeliever.

Dr. Hunter: Kirk Cameron raises question about eternal conscious torment in Christianity

And so, so Dr. Hunter, I want to focus for a moment, on the concept of justice because I think in listening to what Kirk Cameron said, in his kind of newly adopted view or questioning of eternal conscious, torment and, and leaning toward annihilationism, he raises this question of whether it makes sense and is in line with God's nature and character. For someone who, who does not accept salvation, who is not born again, is it truly just that eternal conscious torment is punishment for that person? And you know, and there are always examples that are raised, like the unborn child who of course is a human and so would have a soul, the, the unfortunate tragedies of, you know, child dying or people who maybe haven't ever heard a clear presentation of the gospel and they die, Is it fair? Is it just for God to punish them versus people who maybe actively reject the, the truth of the gospel? We could maybe wrap our head around that. But a lot of people have a problem with, and I think Kirk Cameron is one of them, saying, well, would a truly just and loving God send someone to eternal punishment when in their view it's really quote unquote, not their fault?

Dr. Braxton Hunter: Yeah, I think that there's obviously something a bit intuitive about that thinking. It's kind of like the question of why God would allow suffering. These are the kind of Questions that I think church people will think of growing up in the church, you know, without anyone prompting them to think, well, wait a minute, does the punishment really fit the crime? And on one sense, in one sense, I want to say, well, what traditionalists always say about this is, hey, that just shows you the holiness of God compared to the sin of man. And that, a dramatic picture of that. but ultimately, I'm both surprised and not surprised to hear Kirk Cameron raising this particular issue. And the reason is because the most scholarly of annihilationists will say, hey, if the Bible teaches eternal conscious torment, whether that seems intuitively right to us from a human perspective, we would be forced to believe that. And so our own thoughts about, you know, we don't want to have the idolatry of compassion, as some call it, where we think that we're going to be more spiritual or more compassionate than God. So let me say something about this. Like we said before, I think that we understand intuitively that justice is a good thing. And so if God is good and his nature is good, and God does not change, then God is going to do the just thing, even if that doesn't match our sensibilities. Now, for this side of it, the traditionalist side of it, here's a little thought experiment. I'm not sure who came up with it, but this iteration of it is me. So let's say I'm at home watching my favorite television show, which is the Andy Griffith show, and, a cat is whining at my window. Now, I would never do this, of course, but let's say that this goes on that night after night, and I end up strangling the cat. And then my neighbor gets another cat and another cat and another cat. Well, I don't know what the punishment is, for sinning against the cat, so to speak, by killing it. but it's. It's relatively small compared to my own life. You know, I. Maybe I go to jail overnight. Maybe I pay a penalty because I don't typically. I mean, I never. I never kill cats. but let's say eventually I strangle my neighbor, which would be a bit of an extreme thing over the Andy Griffith show, but I strangled my neighbor. Now, I know there's a penalty that's perhaps equal to my own. What is equal to my own life? Maybe I get capital punishment. Maybe I go to jail for the rest of my life. Prison. So, I understand there's a stair step of justice. Sinning against an animal versus sinning against a Man that's equal to me, my life in value. So then what must be the penalty for sinning against an everlasting God? Well, that stair step of justice that you see inside of yourself. When we talk about the cat versus the man and now God, you can kind of see it, it should step up again. Right. And so that, that just penalty, whether it seems right to us or not, would be an everlasting penalty for sinning against an everlasting God. Now the annihilationists will say it's an everlasting penalty in the sense that you die and everlastingly you'll remain dead. But, but however you cash that out, it if the penalty is everlasting torment for sinning against an everlasting God, and that turns out to be just. Well, what's beautiful about the cross, Jenna, is that we have the only solution to having sinned against an everlasting God. If he must be, just because that's the good thing is if he punishes someone, penalty for that, onto an everlasting man. And that man is Jesus. And so on the cross what we see is both, God retaining that justice in its fullest expression, but an escape from the penalty ourselves because of, Jesus who took that as a man on behalf of mankind. And I just see a real beauty in that. And it kind of helps with the justice side.

Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And I think, we too often in our humanity, we have an implicit sense of fairness and of justice because that's part of the nature and character of God. But we only see that through our own human lens. And if we truly understand, even to the capacity that we can, the perfection of God and who he is compared to how grotesque our sin is, then we begin to understand this chasm and why what we do here in the days that God has given us, and the Bible says that, you know, God numbers our days. And so some of us have, more or less than others of days. But what we do and the decisions we make have an impact on eternity. And this is also why, speaking about eternity and this concept of what actually is hell, even though I think Kirk Cameron, you know, got it, got it wrong, I'm grateful to him for at least raising the question in a broader, I think evangelical kind of framework, nationally. Because too often we focus in churches on how to live for Christ, but we don't focus on how to prepare for eternity as best we can. And we like to put off, the concept and the thought of, death that's appointed to each and every human being, and what actually happens in eternity and the length of just how long eternity is. And so we need to have a view of God's justice and how that affects our decision making. my pastor Once, Dr. Hunter said, you know, if we truly understood how righteous God is, we would not be trying to get away with as much as we can. We would be so disgusted with.

Dr. Braxton Hunter: Oh, that's right.

Jenna Ellis: And it's, just, it's so true. And so, you know, these concepts I think are just so important.

Jenna: I'm glad that this conversation is happening

Dr. Braxton Hunter: Yeah, I think so. And I'm glad you brought up that you're pleased that this conversation is happening. I am too. And one of the things that I really want to guard against and you know, maybe your mileage will vary on this, but, I think that it's important in a moment like this for us if someone like Kirk Cameron, who has been, you know, a great blessing to Christians, if he is getting, if he's doing this, ah, coming to this conclusion based on scripture, and I haven't spoken with him. I'd love to speak with him. A friend of mine, I think is speaking with him, but I would love to speak to him. But if it's coming from scripture, then I think we need to show some grace and say, hey, we're not going to declare someone a heretic or cast them into the fire that they don't believe in or anything like that. But understand that, hey, there are issues. Calvinism versus, whatever non Calvinist position is an example of that, you know, end of, end of days sort of things, end times sort of things is an example of that. And I'm not saying that it doesn't matter. These, all these things matter deeply. And hell matters because it has to do with the ultimate, you know, what did Jesus come to save us from? Well, from our sin. And the consequence of that sin, which is death, which is cashed out as the second death in hell. And so this becomes vitally important. But I do think, you know, we can, it's. There's a sense of alarm that can come over us when we hear of a view like this. First coming into evangelicalism, I think of my mom, for example. My mother is the sweetest woman you could ever imagine meeting. She's probably like you, Jenna. but when she first heard of annihilationism, she was somewhat horrified because, ah, and even though my mother couldn't hold someone's hand to the fire for five seconds, I think that she was horrified by the notion that to have a view like this come into evangelicalism, that is so new and surprising to most people, even though it has a history in the church, it's a minority position, but it has a history in the church. But when it seems new like this, it can be destabilizing to people. And they think, well, wait a minute, this is one of my deeply held beliefs that I've believed all my life. It has to do with what I think Jesus saved me from and all of that. And it can seem very alarming. And so I totally get that. Because ultimately what that comes from is a desire to be faithful to what was delivered to them and what they think the Bible teaches. And so I appreciate that. I think there's things to appreciate on both sides of the discussion, whoever's right or wrong.

Jenna Ellis: Yeah, I agree. And as Christians, if we encounter a new doctrine or maybe just one that's revived, that, has had some historical context or just something we've never heard of before, the Christian response should be to say, well, have I thought of this incorrectly? what does the Bible say about it? Because my personal beliefs are not the measure of what is right and truthful according to the word of God. It's the word of God. And so we should at least have the willingness to approach, these issues and say, you know, if you can persuade me from the Bible to change my position, I am open to that as long as it's in line with the word of God. Because I've, I've changed, son of some of my positions or simply grown in the knowledge of God, through theology classes, through obviously, being in, in church and having my pastor teach substantively. And that's part of growth. Now, that doesn't mean, of course, that we need to do that lightly or we should change our position just because, oh, somebody else has a, different thought. And I've never thought about it that way. Well, I've probably been wrong. You know, it shouldn't be easy.

Dr. Braxton Hunter: Right.

Jenna Ellis: But it should be something that the entire motivation is to be the most faithful to the accuracy of what is revealed in specific revelation, which is the Bible, of course, contrasted with general, which is, you know, what we see of the truth of God in his creation around us.

Jenna: One danger of annihilationism is telling unsaved there's hell

And so with that said, as well, how should we think broadly of this whole conversation of what hell actually is and what that does look like for the unbeliever? Because one of the dangers, I think, of the annihilationist position is that even though they they may say, like Kirk Cameron, well, that a more, a more loving God would simply, not, have human beings persist in this eternal conscious torment. The danger of that is telling the unsaved there's, you know, well, you'll just cease to exist. And that's not really, honestly as scary of a thought. And I think there is a danger in that, that there's no. It takes away from the urgency of the gospel message.

Dr. Braxton Hunter: I see. Yeah. you know, I was telling you during the break that I was an evangelist traveling to different churches and preaching for 15 years, and I still do that on occasion. And for a big part of that ministry, I would always press this issue of hell, and I would say, listen, it's forever. you know, I heard a preacher once say that if an eagle brushed its wing across the tallest mountain in the world only one time every 10,000 years, by the time that mountain was leveled to a plain by the brush of that eagle's wing, eternity would just be beginning. And that's just a way to try to conceptualize. And that certainly is a motivating factor. And frankly, I don't think there's anything wrong with motivating people. You know, some will say, well, you should come to Jesus because you love him. Well, when I first came to my wife, I came to my wife because she was beautiful. I didn't know her yet. And then I fell in love with her as I knew her. And, so if people initially come for salvation from their sin and death and hell, then, you know, I don't personally see a problem with that. What I've done recently, because I think what Kirk Cameron sees and what I see when you're dragging your comb through scripture to see if anything like conditionalism catches, your comb up there, I think like of Matthew, chapter 10, verse 28, this is one of the strong ones, probably one of the most straightforward texts that, as you say, proof texts for annihilationism. It says, and do not be afraid of those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul, but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. So the question there is, okay, well, wait a minute. We know what the destruction of the body is, the killing of the body. and there's a one to one comparison here to the soul. And so to kill the body, if it's. If to kill the soul, if it's something like killing the body, well, then you. What's left, you know, you've killed the person and there's no Longer a conscious experience. And just as I said with the revelation passages and Mark 9, with Jesus, the, eternal conscious torment person says, what more do you want? Well, the conditionalist says about this, what more do you want? And passages like it. And it's not that eternal conscious torment people don't have an answer to this. They do. But the point is that, there are some things there that are enough for me, and the stakes of this are enough that when preach it. Now, Jenna, here's what I say, and I encourage people to think about using this, perhaps themselves, if they're a pastor or a minister. I say, listen, here's what Jesus says in Mark 9. It's better that you cut off your leg, it's better that you cut off your arm, it's better that you gouge out your eye and avoid this fire that, will not be quenched in this worm that doesn't die. And if you're out there in the audience, because nobody's going to, nobody conditionalist or, eternal conscious torment advocate is going to fault you for just giving the words of Jesus, and that's what he says. And then if you just usually follow that up by saying, now if you're out there, and you say, well, yeah, but what if some of that is imagery from the Old Testament about, conquests and things like that, Sodom and places like that, Isaiah 66. And it's. It's not. And it's not literal fire because it doesn't go on. It's not there now. And things like that. What if it's just imagery? Well, if. If you think that that's imagery, whatever you think hell is, the message of Jesus could not be more clear. And the apostles, you don't want any part of hell. Whatever you think it is, you don't want any part of hell. And if Jesus is saying that in every way that human language can grasp is to get that across to you. Now, one last thing, and I don't mean to suck all the wind out of the room, but real quickly, I would say so it is true that people have come to Christ through my ministry and many people's ministries because of this emphasis on eternal conscious torment. It is, to be fair, true of some people that they have come to Christ because of conditionalism when all they had been taught is eternal conscious torment. Gregory Boyd is an example of someone. He has a. Has a book, letters between he and his father. And his father was an unbeliever. And it was when he heard conditionalism taught that he thought finally he could be a Christian because he thought it didn't make any rational sense otherwise. Now I'm not saying that that's the right way to think about this, but what I am saying is there are people on both sides and I would say ultimately we don't decide what we believe about hell or any particular Christian doctrine based on what we think is pleasant enough or awful enough for whatever purpose. But we should base it on, you know, what, what do we think the Bible actually teaches? And that's why I think it's important to get into the Scripture and hash it out. Because it's a really good and fun and profitable debate, I think.

Jenna Ellis: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, there are some Christians who say, you know, why do we have to get into, you know, the weeds of some of these things? Because then that looks like then, ah, Christians don't have a consensus. And so then, you know, to the outside unbelievers it looks like, well, if we can't even agree on these things, then, you know, how should I believe in you know, some of these other things? But that's missing the point that all Christians believe in the primary doctrines and, and the doctrine that gets into soteriology or the doctrine of salvation, of how to be born again. And by definition you cannot be a Christian without agreeing on the essentials of salvation, the person of Christ. And we all agree on those. otherwise then you are literally outside the church. And the Bible's explicit on that. And so these things are in house debates. I mean, I'm certainly not suggesting that because Kirk Cameron is raising this, that somehow now, you know, he is like other apparent Christians who've then, you know, gone woke or they've totally rejected Christ. And, and and that's been so sad to see. I mean these are what we would call in house debates. These aren't things that should, split us from fellowship. But they are important because as Christians we should always desire to not only know what we believe and understand the Bible to be saying, but just like any other relationship, you know, my relationship with my parents, if I said, well, you know what, I'm fine with just knowing who they are, the essentials, they're my parents, that's enough for me. I wouldn't have a growing relationship with them. I want to know who they are, more deeply. And of course if I have a personal relationship with Christ, and that's the nature of the Christian life, it's not just receiving salvation, it is a personal relationship. I want to grow in the knowledge of who the person of Jesus is. And that requires an in depth study of Scripture. And we shouldn't be afraid to have these kinds of conversations. And so we need to take another break here. so we will be back to kind of wrap up in some conclusions with Dr. Braxton Hunter. But I just want to emphasize for those listening it is so important to have these conversations. We need to be substantively versed in theology or the study of God, because as Christians we need to have answers. We need to know what are primary doctrines, what are things we can disagree on, what are the different positions and then what we are, how we have our own convictions of what the Bible does say and that we have these answers. And as the Bible says, always be prepared to give an answer for the hope that lies within you. So we'll be right back with.

Dr. Braxton Hunter: M. Welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.

Dr. Braxton Hunter discusses annihilationism versus eternal conscious torment

Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. And I'm here with my special guest this morning, Dr. Braxton Hunter, who's the president of Trinity Seminary. And we've been talking about this topic of hell. What what is the truthful definition of hell? What does that look like for the unbeliever? And kind of the two schools of theological thought which are annihilationism versus eternal conscious torment. And as we've described both of these differences and obviously concluding the last segment that this is more of an in house debate. It's not a rejection of the truth of the gospel of Christ to have varying views because obviously none of us who are still living have experienced what eternity looks like. We are making our most informed understanding of what that is. It's not just an educated guess. It's an understanding of what our conviction, where conviction lies when we have a faithful in depth study of the word of God. And so I would commend to listeners to take very seriously theological study. spend more time reading your Bible as the primary source for yourself and then being in a really Good Theology 101 class if your church offers it or there's some really good online versions. Get good commentaries from sources and pastors that you trust. I have the entire you know, John MacArthur NewSong Testament commentary. Even though obviously I disagree with him a little bit on Calvinism, there, it's still, you know, it's a great it's a great companion text and so you know, go deeper and so Dr. Hunter, you know, as we've been talking about this, my my view in studying theology and, and you know, the end of all things and eternity, I reject annihilationism. I think that what, the Bible says and the texts, and others that we haven't even talked about, but the whole, the whole truth of the word of God taken together, that we have to, we can't just go to one verse and say, you know, that's. We're going to take that out of the full council of God and build our whole doctrine around it. We have to take the entirety. I am convinced that, every human being that is created by God in his image has an eternal soul. And where you go in eternity is dependent on whether your name is written in the book of life and whether or not you have been born again. And eternity is going to look consciously very different from whether you are a believer or an unbeliever. And so, this, this whole conversation is so important. And you know, how would you, how would you encourage people to think about this and to come to their own, understanding of what the Bible is teaching?

Dr. Braxton Hunter: Yeah, I think, you know, so I've got a PowerPoint slide that I use in my presentations on hell. I teach a class on hell here at Trinity Seminary. And, on that I can fit almost everything the Bible says about hell on one PowerPoint slide in font size 10. And so this is a manageable discussion. You, whoever you are out there, you can look at the biblical texts, and investigate this for yourself. There are lots of resources online and things like that, but I think it's important to understand with complete openness. It is absolutely the case. It's not debatable that the majority of the history of the church has taken the traditional view. There were early church advocates for, annihilationism or conditional immortality. There were also early advocates for, Christian universalism. And I'm not about to accept anything like that. so I think that, you should take it seriously because I'm glad you brought up Calvinism. I'm decidedly not a Calvinist, but I think Christians should study that issue and understand it to a great depth because it is, though it's inside baseball. It's still important, and it's very important about how you understand the nature of God, the nature of man and all that. And likewise, this issue in the coming years of the church, I think is going to be more and more an issue of inside baseball. That. But it's going to. There may be churches that divide over this. There may be, Christians, that just you know, lose unity over this issue. And so whatever your position is, you need to study this out for yourself in great depth because there's so much we couldn't get to today. There's so much that, you know, annihilationists will point to the plain reading of terms like death and destroyed and perishing, you know, John 3:16, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. But yet then, you'll see traditionalists, point to the passages like some of the ones we discussed. Just to tell you, I mean, I've got 30 something passages here, that traditionalists use in the Old Testament from Jesus teaching, from Pauline texts, from general epistles, from Revelation that seem to teach on a simple reading, eternal conscious torment. The thing I would want people to do is study it for themselves. Understand that it is important because it represents something of what Jesus saved us from. But the traditional position of the church has been for centuries, traditionalism. So it is true and that is one of the strong, things in favor of it, I think.

Jenna Ellis: Yeah, I agree with that. And not to say that you know, all of the church fathers all got everything perfectly, but there is a, there is something to be said for you know, all of the people who have dedicated their lives to understanding the scriptures that when they have consistently reached a similar consensus, that, that, that does speak for something. And so, you know, we aren't trying to reinvent the wheel or say, oh, this is a brand new thing that nobody has ever thought about. And so it is very important to understand, the history, you know, where the doctrines came from, who in history has advocated for them or against them. you know, similarly as Calvinism and and, and all of these different, ways that you can interpret, different passages because necessarily what you believe on hell is going to impact what you believe about salvation. It's going to impact what you believe about the human being, the soul. It's going to impact what you believe about other things. I mean, so these, these topics aren't just isolated and we can say, well it doesn't matter what you think about this because, you know, well, I love Jesus and that's all that I care about is just, you know, I love Jesus and I don't care about the rest of it. Well no, you need to care about it because what you believe about Genesis 1:1 and the creation account will necessarily impact what you believe about the person of God, the person of Jesus, and the necessity of of salvation and the truth of the gospel. What you believe about the end of all things. There are different views of eschatology and revelation and those are in house debates. But what you believe about that necessarily informs your other view. And so this is why we've taken the whole hour today to kind of break this down. And in just the last minute we have here, Dr. Hunter and you can follow him on X at Brax Hunter.

Are there any other resources that you would point to for people besides obviously scripture

Are there any other resources that you would point to for people besides obviously scripture, to learn more about this in depth?

Dr. Braxton Hunter: Yeah, two things. One, our seminary website is trinitysem trinitysem M Edu and people can find out more about us there. And Also our running YouTube channel which is YouTube.com braxton hunter. YouTube.com braxton hunter I have a lot of resources on both sides of this there.

Jenna Ellis: Amazing. And you can follow him again on X at Brax hunter. Really appreciate Dr. Hunter, your time this morning. And as always, listeners can reach me and my team if you have any other questions. Jenna.afr.net. PreBorn's whole mission is to rescue babies from abortion and lead their families to Christ. Last year PreBorn's network of clinics saw 8,900 mothers come to Christ. Please join us in this life saving mission. To donate, go to preborn.com afr.