Transcript

On Pirate Money Radio, we're here for treasure, not just money

Kevin Freeman: Hey, where's your treasure? That's sort of the Capital One question, right? What's in your wallet? Except treasure is far beyond money. As pirates. On Pirate Money Radio, we're here for treasure, not just money. And there's no greater treasure than the heart to the heart of the Father than the souls of people. God loves people. He treasures them. He paid the highest price ever paid for anything when he shed the blood of his Son to redeem people. That's John 3:16, right? For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have every everlasting life. Are people worth more than money? Absolutely. You bet it. That's the case on this program. We're going to explore God's treasure. We're his pirates. We're stealing treasure from the world to place in the kingdom of heaven, we serve the King of kings. And to that end, I, need to tell you a story, or rather, I'd like two gentlemen that I know, one I've known a long time, one I met just recently, to share that story.

First Liberty Institute is a nationwide legal organization that defends religious liberty

And with that, let me welcome Jeremy Dice to Pirate Money Radio.

Jeremy ​Dice: Well, thanks for having me.

Kevin Freeman: Well, we're so glad to have you. You're part of First Liberty. And for full disclosure, I've been on the advisory board for a quarter century. I met Kelly Shackerford back in the year 1999 or 2000. He asked me to join the advisory board. So I'm a big supporter of what you're doing. But, Jeremy, first explain what is First Liberty? How did you get there?

Jeremy ​Dice: Yeah, First Liberty Institute is a nationwide legal organization that all we do is defend religious liberty for all Americans. Now, we do that in a couple different places. We want to make sure that religious liberty is robustly protected within our nation's school. We make sure students and teachers have their religious liberty. people like Coach Kennedy, who wanted to take a knee in silent prayer after the football game, was fired for that. We took that all the way to the Supreme Court, and we won. We, want to make sure religious liberty is protected in our armed forces. You give up a lot of things when you go into the military, but religious liberty should never be one of them. And so recently we defended even the Navy seals when there was a vaccine mandate that was, well, putting them on the sidelines and kicking them out of the military for refusing to, comply with that standard, and we were successful in that case as well. We want to protect our religious liberty in our market marketplace. When you open a business, when you are an employee, you have the right to religious liberty in those offerings as well. That took us with a case with Grof vs. DeJoy at the Supreme Court of the United States, where it requires now everyone from the boardroom to the mailroom to accommodate religion in the workplace. Huge overturning precedent from 1979 in that case, opening up religious liberty within our marketplace. And then we also want to make sure we protect our religious liberty within our houses of worship. You know, there are a lot of those houses of worship. We're going to talk more about those kind of cases today, where people form these relationships to exercise their religion in a corporate setting, like a church or a mosque or a synagogue. We want to make sure that our religious liberty is extended even to those doors as well. And then finally, we want to protect our religious liberty throughout the public square. And this often takes the form of things like monuments. So back in 2019 or 2020, 2019, we got a decision from the Supreme Court protecting a veterans memorial outside of Washington, D.C. and with it, all public displays of religion, whether those are Ten Commandments, monuments, crosses, stars, David, whatever they may be, where we commemorate and use our religion in the public square, we want to make sure it is robustly protected. So, in short, again, we just defend religious liberty for all Americans. And folks can learn [email protected] yeah, now, that's the key.

Kevin Freeman: It's our first liberty. It's right there in the First Amendment.

First Liberty Institute is challenging government efforts to restrict religious liberty

And I want to ask, about that, because you mentioned churches and houses of worship. And the reason that's so important is if you listen in the public square to those who oppose religious liberty, they will often say, well, you just need to keep that in the church or in your house of worship. You don't need to spread that outside. But here's a case today, a storefront church, as I understand, I've never visited it, but I met your client, earlier this year, and somebody told them, you have to abide by our hours and our permissions and our control. And I don't think that's what the founders intended when they wrote that First Amendment.

Jeremy ​Dice: No, not at all. In fact, I think the founders would be shocked at some of the things we see on a daily basis. Bases at First Liberty Institute of how the government is often being used to shut down or curtail what they intended to be a free society. And especially when it comes to religious institutions. You know, outside of the case we're going to talk about today, just look at a few, right? We have a synagogue up in New York, right outside of New York City, on one of the barrier islands out there, that is trying to move into a village. And the town wanted to seize their property through eminent domain. And, we stood in the way of that and are still litigating that case. But ultimately we're going to be successful because the state can't just simply take your property and convert it for their own use when you're trying to use it for religious purposes. That was all pretext as the. As the evidence showed to us, what we thought it was going to be. we represent a church down on the border in San Luis, Arizona, where the city there is upset that the church is doing what churches have done for millennia. Meaning they're giving away food, and they're saying, hey, if you want to donate to defray some of these expenses, you're welcome to put your money in the basket over there, but just take the food. We want you to be well fed. And the city has actually now made the argument that that's a commercial enterprise that has to be regulated. And if they. They do semi trucks to deliver that food to the church, well, you know, they're going to be punished and prosecuted for doing so, even though just down the street at the local elementary and high schools, they receive weekly deliveries by semi truck for their Head Start program. So they're simply not even being fair in those circumstances. And I could continue on and on like this, where the government is using what seems to be sort of inane, ordinances to suppress the religious liberty of churches or make it really, really, really difficult where it doesn't need to be for our houses of worship to operate.

Kevin: Please introduce Pastor Chris Savelle on Pirate Money Radio

Kevin Freeman: Well, you know, with that, I'd like you to introduce your client. I met Pastor Chris, like I said, at a conference, but you have been working with him.

Jeremy ​Dice: Please introduce Chris Savelle. Humbles m me every single day. in Dad's place. The ministry that they're doing up there, look, it's a church that you would not probably recognize as a church. You know, it doesn't have the traditional white siding. It doesn't have that steeple and bell tower. But it is the contextual ministry that Chris has been called by God to perform in Bryan, Ohio. Now, where is Bryan, Ohio? Bryan, Ohio, is in the northwest corner of Ohio. If you go to Toledo and go straight west for about an hour, you're going to get to Bryant, Ohio, eventually. It is. Its claim to fame is that it is where the dum dum lollipops are made. And probably every, peppermint, stick or candy, cane you've ever had has been developed there. And the Etch A Sketch was developed first in Bryan, Ohio. But importantly, Pastor Chris has been there for a number of years now, caring for those who have been sort of pushed to the edge of society, those who, need a place to go, even in the middle of the night. And so Pastor Chris has had his church open 24 hours a day for the last year and a half or so. trying to make sure that people are not freezing at night on the streets, sweltering at death in the summertime with no other place to go, or if they just need a place to leave for the night and hang out to play cards or have a conversation and listen to Johnny Cash read the Bible in the middle of the night. That's what Pastor Chris is doing. Among them.

Kevin Freeman: You need to listen to Johnny Cash read the Bible in the middle of it. That sounds so cool. Pastor Chris, welcome to Pirate Money Radio.

Pastor Chris Ovel: Thank you, Kevin. It was actually a, I was at a Muslim, friend I was witnessing to, and he started listening to Johnny Cash read the Bible. so that's where I got that from.

Kevin Freeman: Wow.

Pastor Chris Ovel: But thanks for having me. I really appreciate being on your show.

Dad's Place is serving the heart part of God

Kevin Freeman: Well, you know, Dad's Place, is so cool. When I saw some of the video and the pictures and the things that you're doing, it is serving the heart part of God. God loves people. As we opened with this, God's treasure is people, right? He's willing to spend any amount of money. Even the highest price of the most value, valuable commodity ever spent is the blood of Jesus Christ. And he was willing to spend that to win souls. And that's what you're doing at Dad's Place. Describe a little bit about what brought you into this.

Tell us about what brought you into opening Dad's Place

We got a minute before the break, but tell, tell about what brought you into opening Dad's Place.

Pastor Chris Ovel: Well, I was an atheist. I was 33. And when I came to Christ got saved. he really put on my heart that I was the walking dead and that there were other people out there like me who were dead and didn't know they were dead. And, just gave me this heart to reach people, everyone I could reach, but specifically people who didn't know God didn't attend church. and so that was kind of the founding idea God gave for Dad's Place was we, wanted to feel very comfortable right when you walked in. So, someone who was not raised in a church or had been in a church, they'd walk in, feel like, okay, this is a place where I feel welcome. It's not unfamiliar, and kind of would even almost forgive me, but force people to be a little closer, sit around tables and chairs. and so that was the idea. And it was from the beginning he gave this vision for a 247 church. But, that took several years. I think it was five years in that we finally said, this is the time. so back in 2023, when we opened our doors. 24 7.

Kevin Freeman: Wow. Well, Dad's Place, it's a remarkable story. We're going to talk about this for the rest of the hour. You don't want to miss it. We've got Jeremy Dies, We've got Pastor Crisavel, and we're talking about ministering the heart of God and capturing the treasure of God. We'll be right back after this break.

First Liberty stepped up to defend Dad's Place for religious liberty

Mike Carter: Welcome back to Pirate Money Radio with your host, Kevin Freeman.

Pastor Chris Ovel: Yeah.

Kevin Freeman: And we're joined by First Liberty's, Jeremy Dice and Pastor Chris Avell of Dad's Place. And I'm looking on the First Liberty website, which, reading down about this case, and it's a case. It's a case that means the government has come after them. And First Liberty stepped up and said, we'll defend Dad's Place for religious liberty. Let me just read this. It says, in March 2023, Pastor Chris Ovel of Dad's Place in Bryant, Ohio, began operating his ministry 24 hours a day to serve the most vulnerable in his local community. For months, Dad's Place did so without incident. Now I'm going to stop there. Can you imagine Whataburger, which is well known, it's around here you get hungry in the middle of the night and you need physical food. You can drive to Whataburger and they're open, and you can get you a good cheeseburger or you can get, you know, whatever they're serving at night. But if you have a spiritual need in the middle of the night, what do you do? Well, if you're in a hotel room, you open the drawer and hopefully find a Gideon's Bible and you can get on your knees and you can talk to God. that's helpful. But what if you're in Bryant, Ohio, and you want to find out, you know, I'm feeling empty. I need Something. Is there a place you can go? Where can you go? What can you do? And Dad's place opened up and it was working great. Right, Pastor Chris?

Pastor Chris Ovel: Yes, it was, smooth sailing.

Kevin Freeman: People coming in, people getting spiritual needs met. You're serving coffee, donuts. What are you doing? I mean, what's it like when you walk in? It's 3am in the morning. You're not a traditional church. You don't have this big sign up that says services on Sunday at 11:00am Pastor, high and mighty, speaking to the congregation. Nothing wrong with that. But that's not the kind of church you are. You're a different kind of church. So what's the experience like? What do people see when they walk.

Pastor Chris Ovel: In at 3am well, when they walk in at 3am M, they'll see some people who are resting. they'll hear Johnny Cash on the radio. There's almost always people playing cards or something in the middle of the night. just fellowship, but people ready to welcome them in and share the love of Christ with them and teach them, what Christ's love is, who he is. And it's really remarkable because God does so many things in these hours that were just kind of the unexpected hours. you know, people are in crisis at all times of the day, but sometimes it seems like at nighttime can bring out the worst. And so we would have people who, let's say a husband and wife would be in an argument. And it got a little heated and the police got involved. And the police saw no reason to make an arrest, but they really felt it was best for the couple to have part ways for the evening and cool off. and it often left whoever it was in a difficult spot. Where can I go? It's three in the morning. Who do I call? And so it allowed, the community to a place to come and say, hey, here's the place you can go cool off. And what was great is often in those vulnerable times, people are looking for answers. You know, me and my wife aren't getting along. We're about to kill each other. You know, we need some answers. And then we could share the truth that the only thing that can really heal their marriage or be the foundation for a successful marriage is Christ. You know. And so, it's been amazing to see. And early on we would have the police department bringing in people all the time. Whether it was a mental health crisis, they were going to, an emergency in the home. they just got released from the hospital and there was nowhere for Them to go. Really, a beautiful thing.

Kevin Freeman: So you had a good relationship with the police, and when they showed up, you were thinking, this is a ministry opportunity. But one night they showed up and said, we're going to shut you down. How did that happen?

Pastor Chris Ovel: Well, it happened so early. in the morning, I get a call saying, hey, the police are here, and a, zoning official is here, and he just brought something, and they put something on the door. And it was saying we were in zoning violation for allowing people to eat, sleep, and wash clothes on the premises.

Kevin Freeman: So this wasn't about the timing. This wasn't about being open at night. The initial approach was zoning, and you can't feed and clothe people like Jesus commanded us to do. Is that right?

Pastor Chris Ovel: Yeah, that was the initial. What was written on the complaint was eating, sleeping, and people washing their clothes. and so we were given 10 days to rectify the situation. I didn't quite understand what the problem was. and so I reached out to the, mayor, who I thought was the right solution and didn't get a return to my calls. And so I finally got ahold of the zoning administrator, and he said, here's my suggestion to you. Close, at 11:00pm Open at 8:00am which was, I think, a genuine suggestion. He was trying to help, but it simply is not what we were called to do. We were called at Dad's place to be a church that has our facility open 24 7. We're always the church 24 7.

Jeremy ​Dice: Right.

Pastor Chris Ovel: Everyone knows that. but that the facility itself would be open 247 to allow people to come in for whatever they needed.

Jeremy Martin: When government acts to substantially burden free exercise of religion

Kevin Freeman: Let me ask you, Jeremy, so what is the free exercise reference? Tell us about what the First Amendment says and what the founders intended for a church to be able to do.

Jeremy ​Dice: Yeah, the First Amendment is very clear, right? You have the free exercise of religion. And this is how this church exercises their religion. They're supposed to be free to do so. Now, there's another law that is also on the federal statutes, on the books that says that. It's called R. LUPA The Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act. And so when when a government acts to substantially burden the free exercise of religion, it then has to demonstrate in order to do that. They have to say, okay, do you have a compelling interest for that? Is there some reason why you must do this? Why you must substantially burden the free exercise of religion? And if they can actually advance that, then the city has to prove, the government has to prove that they have done so in the least restrictive manner. Not a least restrictive manner. The least restrictive manner, meaning there's no other way for us to accomplish our compelling interest here. We have to intrude upon the free exercise of religion. And we simply contend, and have contended now for, you know, almost two years, I guess, that, the city has, number one, no compelling justification here, and they're not proceeding in the least restrictive means possible. There are all other ways to be able to accomplish their goal of, in this instance, they believe safety or zoning. And depending on what part of the litigation you're talking about and what stage of the case it is, they don't have any reason to be able to compel Pastor Chris to end his ministry overnight.

Kevin Freeman: Well, you know, as you described Pastor Chris earlier, it seems like the safety is increased by having Dad's place open rather than diminished. so whether that's a compelling reason or not, it seems the facts of what you're sharing would go against the city's position. Is it that they just are you downtown and they just didn't want the appearance of vagrancy downtown? Is that.

Jeremy ​Dice: I think that's truly the answer there because this started out as a zoning issue and it continues to be. That's still part of the equation. But roughly four months into the litigation, maybe more like five months into the case, they changed their, their tactic quite strongly here because they determined that they could actually make more headway if they made this about fire, fire safety. and the natural impulse of most people is, well, the government can really help you out when it comes to fire safety and fire bad. So we're going to make sure that they have the freedom to do so. Well, they changed their tactic at about 5:30 in the morning, one morning in April of 2024. Again, this is after about 12 inspections. 10 or 12 inspections had already occurred by the fire chief during that time, after the pastor had repeatedly made different changes to the church building to bring it up to the fire chief standards. Things like, you know, don't plug too many plugs into a single outlet. there was a big debate over what type of hood it had to go over top of the oven, for instance, in the church. and the church had been making progress on that had been so successfully, in fact, the fire chief cleared them of all the problems. And then he announced that, oh, actually what you need here is a sprinkler system. You need a fire suppression system. And he gave them seven days to install a fire suppression system to make sure that that would be okay, for the people to be there 24 hours a day. The, taco shop that is right next to the pastor's church here, they had a fire code violation, and the fire chief gave them, like, 30 days to make a correction. And that's where they, like, you know, boil grease over there. And they got 30 days. The church was given seven days. And to install that would cost roughly four years worth of rent for the church in order to be actually installed. And that's the bottom line price for that thing. We're not entirely sure that would be the case. And then we looked more closely and discovered that they had said that their concern was people sleeping overnight inside the church building. They needed a fire suppression system for that. So you would think wherever people spend the night and sleep overnight in their town, that everybody would be required to have a fire suppression system. Remember, fire bad. We need to have ways to protect people. That's the compelling interest by the government here. So we looked at the town's meager motels, and there are only a couple of them and a couple apartment complexes and even a senior living facility. And you know what we found? We didn't find a single sprinkler system. The three motels in town do not have a fire suppression system installed inside their rooms. If you go to the apartment complexes, there are no fire sprinklers there. If you go to a senior living facility, where you would argue that they probably need it more than everybody, given how difficult it is for them to ambulate around their apartment, no fire suppression system is required by the city. They are all grandfathered. And only the church was being required to install this. and so, the unfairness, the inequity became really very clear, and we had to continue this case, and we still continue this case, not in one court, but three separate courts, because we brought an offensive action in federal court. But now we are also defending a civil claim by the fire chief as well as a criminal charge by the fire chief. For Pastor Chris in, Dad's Place church, it's been a monumental piece of litigation.

Kevin Freeman: Well, Pastor Chris, you probably shouldn't have been playing Ring of Fire by Johnny Cash that night. but no, this is really kind of a crazy story that you're telling me here. Who would have ever thought? I know we're going to get into exactly the ordeal that you've gone through, Pastor Chris, but what were you thinking when they first showed up? You think, this is administrative, we'll get this fixed. But you've at some point had to figure out that they really just don't want you offering ministry. How do you feel?

Pastor Chris Ovel: Well, when I. When I. They first showed up, the fire chief, because this was after the zoning, as, Jeremy stated, when the fire chief first showed up, I thought, this is great. Here's a friend who's coming to help make us a safer place. What church doesn't want that? We want to be as safe as we can be while, free to exercise, what we're called to do by God. And so I thought, this is good. And he came through and he said, listen, we're going to do a full inspection. We're check every outlet, and. Okay. And he came through, and very great. First thing, he walks through the door, and there's a little, old propane tank from our. We have a grill outside. And so, it was empty. And another pastor friend was worried it would be stolen, so he brought it. He said, hey, put that outside. That kept. So we brought that outside. And, he said, hey, with extension cords. You don't want to be doing that. I'm thinking, this is great. This is really helpful. And this is what we're. How we're hoping to work together. and then. And as it persisted on, you know, the violations, we'd fix one. It seemed like another one would come, and it just seemed hard to really. And some of them seemed confusing.

Pastor Chris and Jeremy Dice talk more about A Dad's Place

Like, it was unclear exactly what we needed to do. Like, it would say, do this or do this, like, lock the door or get rid of this. So we'd lock the door, and then they'd say, we still haven't gotten rid of this. And so it says, do either, or so it was just confusing. So we work through that process. It's quite stressful because they, you know, they keep showing up, and, but we get it all done, and we think, well, this is great. we've kind of satisfied that problem. And then, as Jeremy said, 5:30 in the morning, an inspection occurs, and it's, hey, I got some bad news. I'm gonna have to violate you. You need a sprinkler system. You got seven days. And then the very next day, I was criminally charged.

Kevin Freeman: This is unreal. this is the kind of story that you don't want to hear in America. You think this is what China does? You think this is what, you know, anti Freedom is about? All right, we'll be back with Pastor Chris and Jeremy Dice talking more about A Dad's Place right after this break.

Mike Carter: Pirate Money Radio helping you give Spend and invest in ways that align with Liberty, security and values.

Kevin Freeman talks with Pastor Chris Ovel about ongoing persecution at church

Welcome back with your host, Kevin Freeman.

Kevin Freeman: Yeah, we're talking with Pastor Chris Ovel of A Dad's Place. And also joining us in studio is Jeremy Dice of First Liberty. We just heard the story of the continual persecution of Dad's Place, which is a church. It's a ministry, for people, whoever needs Jesus. In the middle of the night, they're open. During the day, they're open. They're just sharing the love of God of Christ with food. you can wash your clothes there, you can fellowship there, you can listen to Johnny Cash there. and they're using now, initially it was a zoning violation, and then it was a fire code violation, and there's a continual persecution. When was it that you were brought in, Jeremy? When First Liberty was called. How'd you learn about this?

Jeremy ​Dice: We got this right before New Year's Day. This case came in while I was actually on vacation. And my associate got it and he just sent me an email saying we're doing this. And he got a. Got right on it and got a hold of Chris. And Pastor Chris is walking into his church services carrying the donuts to go into the church services on Sunday morning. I think it was actually New Year's Eve, if I remember correctly. and he, he is served by a police officer with some, some citations by the, the city, which New Year's. This was New Year's of 2023.

Kevin Freeman: Okay.

Jeremy ​Dice: And so in 2024, by the end of January, we had filed a federal lawsuit. we sought a temporary restraining order. that became complicated for a lot of reasons. But eventually we got to a hearing in June for that preliminary injunction, and that was denied. But meanwhile, the fire chief had instituted both civil and criminal penalties. Now, initially, those that service of papers that he received walking into church, those were 18 criminal charges that were filed against him. And through some discussion and negotiation, we had those dismissed.

Kevin Freeman: 18, 18 criminal charges.

Jeremy ​Dice: 18 criminal charges for violating the criminal for the fire code. and we were able to get those dismissed. But then when this 5:30 in the morning inspection occurred and they suddenly decided that after four or five months of investigation and inspection, 10 different inspections, cooperation, cooperation by the church, at no point had they, issued any kind of concern about the lack of a fire suppression system. Suddenly In April of 2024, the fire chief says, now you need a fire suppression system, and if you don't have it in seven days, we're going to file criminal charges. He didn't wait Seven days. He filed those criminal charges almost immediately. And, we were able to push that off for a little while. But By December of 2024, Pastor Chris was sitting in a courtroom in a seat where thieves, and robbers had sat before him and was undergoing a criminal trial. and eventually in January of this year, 2025, he was convicted of these charges. So he is now a convicted criminal for having his church open 24 hours a day. He's been fined $200, and he has a suspended 60 day jail sentence hanging over his head. Now, thankfully, all that has been suspended for now, while we appeal those decisions. But, you're looking at Pastor Chris as a hardened criminal for making sure that people have some place of safety to retreat to where there is no other place. In Bryan, Ohio, the city is not exactly rushing to the aid of people that have no place to go. the pastor is trying to be a support and a good community citizen to say, if you can't do it, I'll do it. Just don't prosecute me for helping people. And that's really all this case is about. Just making sure that the pastor has the freedom to do what churches have done for millennia. Care for people, whether it is noon, midnight, three in the afternoon, or four in the morning, have a place for people to go and be safe. That's what Dad's Place is all about.

Kevin Freeman: Yeah, well, you know, the compassion that you're talking about, Pastor Chris, is phenomenal. What you're doing is phenomenal. But, and I suspect even if you'd installed every fire suppression system they wanted, they would have found something else. But you didn't do that because it would have been, you know, four years of rent or something, something like that. It's very expensive. But it's also very expensive to defend yourself against 18 criminal charges or to show up in all of these court cases and file these, responses and everything else. How in the world is Dad's place able to afford doing all of that? I know these First Liberty guys. They're the best of the best. They win Supreme Court cases, and here they're in Bryant, Ohio. How expensive was that and how do you deal with that?

Pastor Chris Ovel: Well, first off, so, yeah, the 18 original charges were zoning charges. What it was is for every day we continued to operate, there was another zoning violation charge. So it was 18 days. So 18 charges. And. But as far as the question, Kevin, First Liberty, is just really an angel of God's, an army of God's angels in the Courtroom. It's been remarkable. So they came in and I didn't. You know, my head is spinning when this all happens. I don't know. I'm not. I know nothing about the legal system. I don't know what to do. And, you know, of course, I have a bunch of people who are my friends and otherwise, and telling me all, you got to do this, do this, do this. And I just prayed. All I knew was I wanted to, If the thing. If such a thing existed. I wanted an attorney who knew God and followed him. And so. And I wasn't quite sure that existed. And so I, started kind of sending seeds out everywhere. And I went on the federal. There was a rlupa, I think it was the website. I went on there, and I filled out some paperwork, and a guy contacted me back from the Department of Justice, and he says shortly, we can't help, but these guys can and connected me with First Liberty. And, it hasn't cost me financially a thing. they have. It's been incredible. You know, they treat me like family. Right from the beginning, before I knew them, they've come, they came in, and, you know, I'm just a mess. Of course, my family, we're all concerned. And they came in and immediately brought us comfort. It wasn't just a couple attorneys show up and say, here's what we're going to do legally. It was literally people, coming alongside, said, hey, let's pray with you.

First Liberty Church supports Pirate Money Radio and Patriot Mobile

What do you need spiritually? How's your family doing? it is really a picture. Talk about the church at work. The church is at work in First Liberty. It's unbelievable to me. I still. Every day I wake up and it's part of my prayers. I just thank God for them and go. But my biggest thanks is that God opened my eyes to such a thing, that his church could operate in such an incredible way that was beyond even my dreams. Right. God works beyond our imagination. And that's what I saw at First Liberty. just a, group of people who were sincerely dedicated to living out their faith by supporting people, on the other front lines of faith, not the legal front lines, but on the, let's say the church, or however you want to phrase that, front lines of their faith. just remarkable. So, while the fire suppression system represented a huge burden, First Liberty has been nothing but a blessing. I mean, I can't. I can't believe this. I can't imagine the cost they've occurred. They've incurred, loving us and. And Being there alongside of us, they're beyond generous. I mean, they just, it's just, it's honestly, it's, it's world changing from my view.

Kevin Freeman: Well, they are operating as the body of Christ. The body of Christ. You know, a hand cannot say to the foot, I have no need of you. And I know Kelly Shackelford and my friends, Hiram Sasser and Jeremy and others at First Liberty. They're not there at, ah, three in the morning to meet somebody walking in in Bryant, Ohio. They're not able to do it. But they are there in Washington D.C. or maybe in Ohio, talking to the Attorney General or they're able to do that work. And their part of the ministry is beautiful and I love it. I'm so glad to support it. You know, a lot of the times things come down to money with the body of Christ. Treasure, not money. Treasure is really loving God and serving people. That's the treasure of the heart of God. You know, sometimes it does come down to economics, like money. And there are only three things you can do with your money. You can give it, you can spend it, you invest it. At Pirate Money Radio, we work to explain solutions that support all three areas in a way that promotes liberty, security and values. Patriot Mobile, it's a mobile phone company. They support the Pirate Money radio program. Patriot Mobile uses US carriers including AT&T, Verizon and T Mobile. They operate on both Apple and Android phones. More information about our other show, the Economic War Room. And Patriot Mobile is available at, piratemoneyradio.com afr that's piratemoneyradio.com afrr but I know we need to talk to Patriot, Mobile to see if they'll support Dad's place. I believe they support First Liberty. you know, we need to have the entire body of Christ, everyone doing the part God's given us so that we have the ministry of Christ going on. I love what First Liberty is doing. How can people learn more if they want to support.

Jeremy ​Dice: Yeah, I'd encourage folks to go to firstliberty.org, f I r s t liberty.org and you can learn all about our cases, all about the work that we're doing around the country. I have cases right now in at least 10 different states, everything from New Hampshire to Hawaii to Fort Lauderdale, and of course up into Ohio and elsewhere. We just filed a lawsuit this morning in the state of Washington. So we've got cases everywhere in this country to make sure that religious liberty is well [email protected] firstliberty, uh.org to learn more.

Any listener right now knows how they could support Dad's Place

Kevin Freeman: All right, and Dad's Place. Where do we learn more about Dad's Place? We've still got some more of the story we've got to tell, but let's make sure that. That any listener right now knows how they could support Dad's Place.

Pastor Chris Ovel: Sure. Well, we have a Facebook page if you search for Dad's Place, Brian, on how you'll find us. We're not super big on marketing ourselves, but, you know, dadsplacechurchmail.com is our email address. So dadsplacechurchmail.com you can message us, and I'd be happy to talk to you about whatever support you need, prayer support or whatever support you want to give. you know, so that's how they can reach us. You're able to find us. It's Bryant, Ohio. So if you search for a church in Bryant, Ohio, we're likely to come up, you know, and that's probably the best way.

Kevin Freeman: Well, thank you, Pastor Chris.

Ohio law protects religious liberty stronger than the U.S. Constitution

All right, so I want to get into. We've got one more segment after this, and I want to get into how the Ohio Attorney general, is it Dave Yost, came down and checked this out. Does this break Ohio law? This is a big thing happening right now. Communities, actually have the constitutional authority that the state does. There's a distinction there. So describe the Constitution was formed by the states. The federal government was formed by the states. States have supposedly the highest authority. That's how the founders laid it out. But how does the community respond? Do they fall under the authority of the state, or they supersede the authority?

Jeremy ​Dice: They certainly in this case, have to follow the attorney general, who actually is the one in. In charge of enforcing the fire code, ironically enough. and the fire chief and him are a bit at odds, as we'll talk about here in a minute. But actually, one thing we should add to that equation is that the state of Ohio is sort of unique as well. It is a state and it has its own united, part of that state equation that we have here. We're all part of this federal system. But don't forget that the Ohio grew out of something called the Northwest Ordinance. And if you study the Northwest Ordinance, you'll find it is replete with not just calls for freedom, but specifically it calls out religious freedom and is very vocal about how, Judeo Christian thought is supposed to influence its structure of government. Well, that has actually been, now part and parcel of the state of Ohio's. Constitution. So where the First Amendment to the United States Constitution is very robust, very helpful in this case, the religious, freedom Amendment in the, Ohio Constitution is actually stronger than even the First Amendment. And so that interplay between the federal protections for religious liberty as well as the state's stronger protection for religious liberty is gonna come to be very, very important as this case goes on. Because now not only are we in federal court, which we're having to litigate there, but we're also on appeal in the state court system. And that's where that, Ohio protection for religious liberty and the Attorney General of Ohio, Dave Yost, come into play. And we'll talk about that more in the next segment.

Kevin Freeman: Yeah, you know what's amazing about this, though, is, Pastor Chris, when you reached out, you reached out to the Justice Department, and they say, hey, these guys at First Liberty, they may be the right people to talk to. I love how First Liberty has worked with the, with the federal government. It works with state governments. You guys are doing tremendous work protecting America's First Liberty. And that's the right to work, worship God as you see fit. We'll be right back with more after the break.

Mike Carter: Pirate Money Radio, helping you give, spend and invest in ways that align with liberty security values.

Kevin Freeman speaks with Pastor Chris of Bryan, Ohio about Ohio church case

Welcome back with your host, Kevin Freeman.

Kevin Freeman: And our guest from First Liberty Institute, Jeremy, Dice. And our guest from Bryan, Ohio, Pastor, Chrisavel of Dad's place. And we were just talking about there's an attorney General in Ohio named Dave Yost, and apparently he got in the middle of this.

Jeremy ​Dice: Pastor.

Kevin Freeman: Ah, Chris, what did it feel like when you saw an attorney general was coming to visit you and check you out?

Pastor Chris Ovel: Well, at first, to be honest, a little apprehensive because we didn't know, you know, what's he coming to see, what's he, you know, and our kind of interactions with the government to that at that time had been a little uncomfortable. And so, but when he showed up, listen, I, immediately was brought to ease because, he came in looking to meet the people. And I tell you, I had been, this is no joke. I had been. Kevin, I'd been praying for that, that someone from the city, just for a simple word, would come and actually sit down and get to meet and know the people and understand what's going on here. And you can't walk into the place and actually sit down and have a conversation and be a Christian and not go, this is church in action. This is the gospel being lived out. And once we get to that point, where else do we go, you know? And so Attorney, General Yost came in and, he sat and talked with our family. He listened. He took a look around the facilities, and he sat with almost every person in the building. No matter what they looked like, their background was. He heard their stories. and he came back and said to me, m. He marveled, I really believe this, at the amazing people that were in the building, people that, as Jeremy put earlier, society had pushed to the edges. it was incredible. It was really incredible.

Kevin Freeman: You know, you think of the difference here. one government official comes in to check the sprinklers or to check the, outlets. Another comes in to meet the people. And, you know, you hear the phrase, you can't fight city hall. I mean, that's a common colloquial phrase here in America. And yet you're doing that, Pastor Chris, and you're doing it with the help of First Liberty. But did you know Jeremy? Did you know, the Attorney General before this?

Jeremy ​Dice: yeah, I had met him before that, and we had had some conversations about this case, and he ultimately contacted us and said, I want to go meet this place. And so he drove, look, going to northwest Ohio, to Bryan, Ohio. You're not on the way to something. You're going there on purpose. And he did. And there's a great picture of Pastor, Avell, along with the, Attorney General, where they're sort of armed across each other. and you can see in the Attorney General's eyes there are tears. He had been moved so much by that ministry that he was moved to tears. And those tears translated into motivation. And so the Attorney General joined with us on the case. He supported our appeals. He is still supporting. In fact, we split argument time with the Attorney General on appeal. he has supported our briefing. He wrote this great op ed, and part of what he said in that was to say, this is a city using, quote, the petty tools of government to suppress the religious liberty of this church. and that's precisely what's going on here. The best way to understand this case is, unfortunately, something we know all too well. And that's the government's response to Covid, where they're saying, hey, look, you can go to Home Depot, you can go to the liquor store or the casino, no problem. Wear a mask, stay six feet apart. But if you go to church, if you go to your house of worship, you cannot worship. remember, we had to file lawsuits to make sure people could drive in their cars and park in the parking lot of a church to listen over the radio to their pastor, preach through a closed window, off of a flatbed truck in the city of Louisville, in that instance, was going to say, we're going to put people on house arrest if they do that. And, we would push back against that. And ultimately we prevailed because the supreme court reminded everybody that the government can't say, well, go to Home Depot, go to the casino, go to the liquor store, no problem, but don't go to a house of worship. That's religious discrimination. That's precisely what is happening here, where the city has said, well, you got to have a fire suppression system inside the church in order for it to be safe. But you can go to the three motels in town, the apartment complexes in the senior living facility, and sleep all you want in those buildings without any kind of fire suppression system. That is, as mom used to say, just unfair. In the legal terms, it's religious discrimination, and we're going to hold the city of Bryan accountable for doing so. Thankfully, we have the support of, the chief law enforcement officer of the state of Ohio and Dave Yost, who has gladly been willing to push back against what he called the exercise of the petty tools of government at their disposal.

Kevin Freeman: You know, this is a real hostility to religion. It is not. We want to protect people, which we all agree with. Protect people, keep people safe. And, you know, we had Charlie Lewis, who wrote the Kingdomnomics Principles. We had him on the radio program, a few weeks ago, and he made this. He gave the, phrase, lesser authority must ultimately yield to greater authority. Well, lesser authority would be the city ordinance, and the greater authority would be the state law and constitution. And here you've got, representing that authority, you've got the attorney general of the state. You would think that the city would just. Oh, is that what he says? I dropped the case. But they're persisting.

Why do you think they're persisting, Pastor CHRIS?

Why do you think they're persisting, Pastor CHRIS?

Pastor Chris Ovel: Well, you know, I think it's a few things. There's, of course, on a spiritual level, I think it's just the principalities at work here. You know, we are seeing people every day, give their life to Christ every day, be set free from sin and death. And I think the enemy probably doesn't like that very much. but from the city standpoint now, I think they feel there's no way out without getting some egg on their face. And no one likes to get egg on their face. I don't like it. And so I Think they've kind of, they've decided to dig in and you know, so the only thing they can do is just hope and pray and try every avenue to make sure that, the church looks like we were just running ragged and that the city was justified in its fears. but we can't operate by fear. I think, I think that's such a big, part of this is fear, fear of the people. Hey, you know, we got people there that are homeless. That's scary. What's that going to mean for us, for our neighborhoods? we have people there who are, you know, have been incarcerated for things before. You know, again, that may not even be a homeless person, just someone who attends our church and it's, you know, so it can be scary. And I think they operated, and responded in fear and I think they continue to operate in fear.

Kevin Freeman: Well, you know, if there are homeless people in my city, I would prefer that they have a place to go instead of being sleeping on the streets and maybe getting in trouble or getting hurt or whatever else. So I think the ministry is actually vital. And you know, a lot of cities welcome shelters. They want shelters because they want to have less, crime problems and issues from a fear standpoint. But I want to make sure, if you're in our audience, start praying for. I'm not going to shame her name, but the fire chief, the mayor, the city attorney, all of these people, you know, because we can tell this is not the heart of God, what they're pursuing. And if it's out of fear or if it's to prevent the gospel being shared or people getting saved, you know, that's serving a wrong kingdom and they need to be set free from that. They're God's treasure too. They may have in their mind that they're doing the right thing, but it's not the right thing if they're going against, against the will of God and certainly the will of, the Attorney General of the state, certainly against the Constitution of Ohio, the Constitution of the United States. So we need to be praying for them. This is an important ministry, dad's place that is bringing people, it's finding God's treasure and bringing people to the kingdom and that pleases the heart of God.

Jeremy Dice: Pastor Chris has a duty to something beyond the state

Jeremy, do you have any, comments? We've just got a couple minutes left.

Jeremy ​Dice: Yeah, look, I think that higher power you mentioned that Davios may be the higher power power in the state of Ohio and it might be. The constitution would be, but there's actually an Even higher power than all of that. And that is the Savior that Chris serves. And so for Chris, he has a duty to something beyond the state, beyond the city, beyond the mayor, beyond the fire chief. He has to stand before a holy and righteous God and perform what he is called to do. If you go back and read James, Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance on Religion, this is an old document around the time of the Constitution. He talks about, sort of why do we protect religion, where, you know, he says, to one man it's just simply, you know, worship, but to somebody else, it's, you know, a divine calling. And the role of government is to protect that space for what one person might just simply say is something we can throw away. It is actually a divine requirement on another person that if they do not pursue that, they may suffer in some human terms, but they will suffer eternal damnation on spiritual terms. And that is why we protect the right of people in religious liberty and the expression and the free exercise thereof. And so that's what I think is happening here, where Pastor Chris has this calling to, work, in the way that he has been called. It's different than the way that the mayor's church operates. It's different than the way that the church. In fact, I saw him ask, questions and depositions of the fire chief and the assistant fire chief, and they were both sort of like, well, I've never seen the church ever do something like this before. Well, that actually might be a bit of an indictment on churches writ large in the country, where we're not actually caring for people in the way the Dad's Place is. But it is at least emblematic of the fact that, yeah, this is different. But that's okay. We support that difference, and we protect the right of people like Pastor Chris and the good folks at Dad's Place Church to be able to operate that. That's why we have a First Amendment. That's why we put restrictions upon the power of government, the power of a mayor. That's why we try to restrain the petty tools of government from being utilized against people like Pastor Chris and Dad's, Place Church. You talked about hostility to religion a little bit ago, and that may actually be the case. I don't know the hearts of the mayor and the fire chief and their attorneys. I really don't. And I don't want to ascribe bad motives, although I might even be tempted to at times. But it doesn't really matter what their intentionality is behind this Hostility can take the place can come in the form of just the imposition of onerous regulations for no good reason, or certainly for the imposition of regulations in an unfair way. So saying that the church has to have a fire suppression system but not a motel, for instance, they don't have to do that. That's just open discrimination that the Supreme Court one time called odious to our.

Kevin Freeman: Constitution and a violation of law.

Jeremy ​Dice: It's absolutely a violation of law. We think so, and we think that the court courts will ultimately agree with us as well. So the city has taken a rather substantial gamble at, saying how much power do we actually have and how much can we exercise here? I think at the end of the day, that power is going to be restrained.

Kevin Freeman: Pastor Chris, 30 seconds. Any message you want to share?

Pastor Chris Ovel: Sure. I think I'll echo the message of the fire chief. Who him and I agree on something, but maybe in a different plane. his message is he's concerned about people sleeping in the church. His concern is something like this. The church needs to wake up. People are in fire danger. And I think that's quite the true message. The church needs to stay awake. People are in fire danger. That's the. He and I share the exact same message. He may be talking about the, flesh, but I'm talking about spiritually. We need to be awake. The church needs to wake up because people are in fire danger.

Kevin Freeman: That's great. Pastor Chris Ofell of Dad's Place, Jeremy Dice of First Liberty, thank you so much. If you have have questions or comments, reach out to us [email protected]. listen wherever you get your podcasts. This is Kevin Freeman, joined by Jeremy and Chris for Pirate Money Radio.