Transcript

Dr. Jessica Peck prescribes Hope for Healthy Families on American Family Radio

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing Hope for Healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck. Well, hey there friends and welcome to my favorite part of the afternoon, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. And in a world where we just continue to see news that breaks our heart, that we continue to pray and, and lift up all of the people who are involved and in the tragedies that we've seen, especially the loss of children's lives, we continue to pray for that. And in a world where we see those kinds of news, our hearts just feel heavy. And today we're going to give you something that may what we hope will be uplifting to you. Our prescription for hope today, which we desperately need, is how do you discover messy, beautiful friendships? When we see all of these things that are going on in the world and, and when we're going through things in our individual personal lives, there is something about friendship that makes those burdens a little less burdensome. And I think of the scripture about carry one another's burdens and in so doing fulfill the law of Christ. And let's be really honest because this is a subject I hear about all the time. I hear about it in my own circles. I hear men talking about this, about their friendship and wanting to have friendship. And especially for kids today, how do they navigate friendship when so many of their interactions happen in an online world? Now we may scroll through social media and we watch all of these curated snapshots. We might see girls trips or guys trips. We might see coffee dates or these perfect group photos or these amazing adventures. And it leaves us wondering, why can't I have a friend like that? And behind the likes and the filters. A lot of women especially confess that they feel isolated, they want to connect, but they are really insecure maybe about their ability to be a good friend. And our guest today is author and Bible teacher Christine Hoover. She is back and she talks about this friendship angst and really shares with us that it's more common than we realize. And she offers a biblical and refresh refreshing vision for relationships that embraces both the beauty and the messiness of real life. And we'll talk about what is actually holding us back from deep friendships and how to move beyond that insecurity that we have and self doubt to discover the joy that God intended for us in community. Christine, we're so glad to have you back. Thanks so much for joining Us today.

>> Amber Brown: Thanks so much for having me back. I'm glad to be here.

Christine Bonrich writes about navigating friendships in Messy, Beautiful Friendship

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Christine, I'm so glad to be talking about this. You know, when I think about friendships, I think the person in my life who had the most admirable friendships was my grandmother, my granny. I called her granny. And she was one of those people who. She literally would get up in the morning, she would get dressed, and she would go and unlock her front door, and people would just come and go all day long. No one ever knocked. Which is just radical to me thinking about it now. Like, it wasn't even that you called before you came over. People would just come in, and I would hear them, you know, just call out to her, and she would be ready with them, ready for them with a snack. She would sit down at the kitchen table and she would just work on whatever she was working on. If she was cooking, she kept cooking. If she was sewing, she kept sewing. If she was making cookies for her deep freeze, she would continue do that. Even if she was cleaning a bathroom. They would just follow her back there. And I remember having this conversation with her and just thinking, I want that. I want those kinds of friends who just come over without knocking and join me in whatever I'm doing. And I. And just live that kind of life. And I know that, you know, I've had some. Some really tough experiences with friendships, trying to navigate that. It was hard for me, sometimes as a. As a mom who was working at. Sometimes as a nurse during my mothering journey. And I know that you had that too. So tell us about the friendship experience, experiences that you had that compelled you to write Messy, Beautiful Friendship, which is such a great name, by the way.

>> Amber Brown: M. I love that story of your grandmother. I wish I could sit down with her and ask her all the questions. but my. My journey with friendship, I think. I think it's pretty common as I talk to a lot of women, that I. Friendship was pretty easy for me as a kid. And I know that's not everyone's story, but in general, you know, we show up to school or we show up to a sports team or to a dance team, and those K that we're there with, they become our friends. And we don't really think a lot about making friends as kids. It just kind of happens. And I think the same thing can kind of happen as we go through Teenage hood or, you know, if we go off to college where we're living with peers, we're spending time with peers a, lot. And that Happened for me. I had really good friendships. I still have those friendships from high school and college. But when I graduated college, I went to move to a big city and I was single and I started working. And suddenly I felt like I had stepped over this invisible line that I didn't know I was stepping over, which was called adulthood. And I thought friendship was going to happen the same way that it had happened when I was younger. That if I just show up somewhere to church or to a Bible study or to work, that I would have friends. And it didn't quite happen like that. And I mourned the change. I mourned being far away from a lot of those friends that I had made in high school and college. And I would say for the. For the next decade or so into my mid-30s, I really, really struggled with friendship. And I started to kind of turn inward on myself and blame myself. Like, maybe I've forgotten how to be a friend, or, you know, maybe it's me. and then I sometimes turned it out toward other. My frustrations out toward other women, like, well, why don't they invite me to something? Or why don't they talk to me? Or why don't they include me? And I eventually turned my frustration toward God because I thought, well, friendship is a good gift, and I don't understand why you're not giving that to me, Lord. And so, I really kind of sat in this cloud of frustration and. And isolation and a lot of insecurity for a while. And until a moment. I, Mean, this was probably my early 30s. I picked up a book called Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and the very first chapter is about community. And he talks about that we as Christians, when we enter into relationships with other people, with these expectations of what it should be like. He calls it the Wish Dream. That when we have this wish dream, which is kind of this idealized version of relationship and community and friendship, that we become very frustrated by the very real people in our lives. And we blame ourselves and we blame other people and we blame God. And that was exactly what I had done. And so it really became this changing point in my life where I realized I'm going to have to, relate to people differently. I'm going to have to pursue friendship differently because it hasn't been working for me the way that. The ways that I have pursued it, which were, it's just going to happen to me, right? That was kind of that, that immature version of friendship. And I'd also kind of let that version of friendship turn into, well, if I can just find that one person or if I can just find that one group, then I will feel secure and I will have my people and everything will be fine. And both of those are really immature versions of friendship because they're really ide. Idealizing, especially that. That if I can just find that one person or that group of people, it's really idealizing friendship and community. And that's what I was doing. And I realized that idealizing is idolizing that I was idolizing this form of friendship that is not actually biblical community. When you open scripture, you see a totally different view. Yes, there's great depth and love and community, but there's also this messy part where we have to bear with one another and forgive one another. And so I kind of set out on this journey personally to figure out how do I engage relationships differently so that I can have friendship.

Christine, what are some common experiences women have with friendship today

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Christine, that is so encouraging and so inspiring, so relatable. And I think one of the things that I think about is that you talk about Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Now Dietrich Bonhoeffer lived way before the era of social media. And it's amazing to me how these timeless truths, even though so social media is new, the condition and the temptations and the wanderings of the human heart, those are not new. And those core emotions, those core longings, those stay the same throughout human history. And that's what makes scripture so powerful for us. And looking at, you know, those powerful words for you from Dietrich Bonhoeffer and how much more so it is powerful, the words and the of wisdom that God gives us on scripture, and I think about, you know, that the quote that probably everybody's heard that comparison is the thief of joy, my daughter likes to say it as comparison is that pesky little thief of joy because it always seems to just be following and nagging and, and with every scroll. And now I think in this age of curated friendships where we're seeing that what friendship looks like is these online picture perfect social media worthy, events, whether that's a party that you're hosting in your house, a shower, an athletic event, a hunting trip, whatever. It. I think we look at those things and I am convicted to think back to my granny and think, no, she had those deep abiding friendships and never posted once about it on social media. So how do we, what do you think are some of the common experiences that people have with friendship today? And what can we learn from those lessons that you shared with us from Dietrich Bonhoeffer and from Scripture?

>> Amber Brown: Well, I think a lot of women can relate to the idealizing of. If I just find that one person or that one group and I'll feel a sense of belonging. I think that's a very common longing or pursuit. I think also the thought a lot of women have as I talk about this is that they think everyone else has that and they're the only ones who struggle with friendship. you know, everyone else feels a sense of belonging, or they do have those friend groups. They do have these things they're going to, that we maybe see on social media. And they don't feel lonely, they don't feel insecure or that they might be on the outside. And the truth is, is that we all feel that at some form or in certain circumstances. And sometimes for prolonged periods of time. If we're new to a place or, you know, maybe we've gone through a really hard thing. those can. Those can be long seasons where we feel like we're a little on the outside and we're not sure who our friends are. And so I think that's a really common thing. I think another common experience for women with friendship is that most everyone has experienced hurt in friendship. They have felt rejected or they have felt left behind, or, maybe there's been conflict or misunderstanding. And sometimes that hurt isn't necessarily an overt something. You know, they didn't have a rupture. But maybe even changing of seasons where you were friends with someone when your kids were in preschool and it was easy to meet up with them because your kids just kind of follow along with you. But then when you move into a new season of life and your kids are choosing different things, it affects your time constraints or as you mentioned earlier, sometimes someone's working and someone's not, and it's just hard to get together. And so I think that that can cause sometimes feelings of hurt or misunderstanding. And we all have that. And I have found, even for me, that that is, that is something that I've had to embrace, that friendship is going to come with misunderstanding and hurt. it's going to come with things I'm going to have to work through. I'm, going to have to bear with people. And there have been times where I've felt like, is it even worth it to keep engaging in relationship? And I always come back to that. It is. And I do think the Bible calls us to that and says in Proverbs that we're foolish if we isolate ourselves from community. And so, I always come back to you that it's worth it. But I do think that that's a common thing, too, that many women are trying to overcome a past wound or, something that's caused them to feel insecure or maybe doubt themselves or even have some bitterness, toward other women.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: There's so much to unpack here. We could talk about this all week long, because so many issues, and you're so right.

Christine Hoover talks about letting friendships go during life stages

I guess I want to go first is talking about that life stage thing. That life stage thing is really real, Christine, because it took me a long time to learn that it was okay that some friendships were just for a season and that God gave them to me for that season. Because I think going back to what you said is really convicting. I have this idealized version of, you know, the best friend that you have since third grade, and you keep that person all your whole life. And it's really hard, and it can be really hard to let friendships go. But I remember a friendship I had during my early mothering days. And I was friends, with another woman who had not. I had not had kids when we first started being friends. And I really viewed her as a kind of mentor. And then I had little kids, and then she had older kids. And we were at very different life stages. And there was a lot of hurt that happened from that. Because what I finally realized, and I had to say out loud is, I cannot meet your expectations of friendship at this stage in my life. I just can't. Because my time, my effort has to be going to my kids. And one of the things that I've learned to appreciate so much is that kind of friend that I can maybe not talk to for months and then just maybe text at 11:00 clock at night, and they're like, what's going on? And it's just like, nothing. No, time ever passed. But even more convicting than that, Christine, I feel like instead of wanting that kind of friend, I, think I want to be that kind of friend. So when we come back, I'm going to have some more questions for you about this contrast between an idealized friendship and what God's word tells us about biblical community and where we can find hope in that. But there's lots more that we have to talk about. We'll even talk about Christine's concept of backdoor friendship and how to be a good friend so that you can make good friends. So much more to talk about with Christine Hoover. We'll be right back after the break.

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>> Amber Brown: But we.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Can lay our burdens down. What a friend we have in Jesus Easter is my sins are gone I see grace on every horizon and forever and ever heart is my home.

Christine Hoover says we often long for safe, lasting friendships

Welcome back friends. That is what a Friend by Matt Mayer and we are talking about friends today because we live in a culture where friendship has been redefined. It really has the way that kids develop friendships online. Think about the word unfriend. That didn't exist before social media. And now, if a friend has served their purpose, you can just unfriend them, whether online or in real life. And friendship is often defined by follows and likes. But digital connection can sometimes leave us lonelier than ever as we scroll past comparisons and feel left out of things that we see other people doing together. And we often long for safe, lasting friendships. But there are real things that get in our way. There are busy schedules and past hurt and just Protecting ourselves. And that is, makes it feel, makes friendship feel impossible. But Christine Hoover is here today to remind us that true friendship isn't about having that perfectly curated circle of people who always get us. Our life does not have to be a, made for TV show, although sometimes I have to say life can be chaotic and it can feel like a reality show. But she is reminding us to lean into the people God has placed in our lives. And she's helping us to unpack some practical ways to make and deepen real friendships, even in the middle of chaos. The book is called Messy Beautiful Friendship Finding and Nurturing Deep and Lasting Relationships. And you know, Christine, as a, mom of children, I'm a mom of four. I talk to my kids a lot about friendship and I remember one season in particular where two of my children were really just aching for that kind of friendship and asking me every night to pray for them. And I think what you've said is so convicting when we look at this idealized version of friendship. I think even back to the TV show Friends. And I'm not going to make any commentary on the, on the content of that, but just the fact that it was such a cultural juggernaut just touches on the nerve that people do want friendships. And as I'm talking to my kids and, and talking about their friendship issues, you know, we, we have those as adults too. Help walk us through. What is this comparison? How do we fall into the trap of longing for those idealized friendships that just don't exist versus pursuing friendships in the context of biblical community?

>> Amber Brown: that's such a good question. And I think it starts with asking ourselves what our wish dream is. That's what Bonhoeffer uses that term. And it's just this visual, the, this this vision that we have, this idealized vision that we have of what we're looking for in friendship. And a lot of times if we do that, what we find is what we are thinking. If I can just find that perfect person. Or in a lot of times for me, my wish dream was someone exactly like me. You, know a stay at home mom when my kids were younger, pastor's wife who understood what ministry meant for me. And so I think starting there and, and asking ourselves, well, what is the wish dream? And then second is just saying, you know what? I have a longing for community. And that is a really good thing. That is something that God has implanted in each of us because we are made for community. So it is not wrong for us to desire Friendship. But we have to put these things together, our wish, dream and that longing, and say, well, really there is an answer to that longing. And there's only one person who is the perfect friend, and that's Jesus. And that sounds so cliche, but it's actually true. because if we think about what our wish dream is, it's that we would be known and loved completely for who we are. That we would never be abandone, we would never be hurt, we would never be misunderstood. Well, all of those things are true about who Jesus is toward us. That we are made, righteous through him, through his death and resurrection. And we're in perfect relationship with God because of him, because of what he's done for us. And so this, this idea of wanting to be known and loved fully, unconditionally, that that's what we have in Him. And so we have to set that good longing first upon him and know he's the perfect friend. And then from that secure place, knowing that we're secure in that love, we can then go and give and receive friendship with people who are imperfect. So they're not going to be like Jesus. They're going to disappoint us. They are going to hurt us and we're going to hurt them. and I think a lot of times what happens is we, when we are idealizing friendship or people, we're really putting them in place of God, wanting them to act the way that he does toward us. And so we get it kind of all twisted up and it can really create a lot of dysfunction in our relationships when we do that. So I try to always start with, you know, this longing, it's good, but let's set our longing upon the true friend. And, and from there, then, you know, Jesus is taugh us how to love. He's demonstrated how to do that. He's taught us how to forgive, and that's going to be necessary in friendship. He's taught us how to go toward other people. he came toward us. And so he's really modeling for us how to be in relationship. and we can go and do that only when we're secure in our friendship with Him.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, some of those truths that you've given, they're. They're so simple. You're right. It almost seems cliche. But that's the grace of God. It's just, it's simple. But that doesn't mean that it's easy.

Christine: Sometimes expectations of people come out in disappointment

And so, Christine, I know that there are people sitting out there thinking, okay, that's It I'm holding on to this wish, dream of a friend. How do we practically step out of that and be intentional and overcoming some of the barriers that are holding us back from pursuing godly friendships? What do we do?

>> Amber Brown: Well, I think that a lot of times for me, what has happened when I've realized, oh, I'm idealizing this person or I'm really disappointed. A lot of times for me it comes out in disappointment with a specific person or with a specific circumstance with a group of people. and why, why am I so disappointed? And a lot of times what I find is that I have expectations of them that they're not meeting. And those expectations are not, you know, it's not a right or wrong, it's a preference. It's. I wish that they would fill in the blank. so I'm expecting something of them that in reality I need to release them from those expectations and just as I would want them to not, be in relationship with me with expectations. And so I think that's a good place to start, is just to say, okay, I do, I do have an idealist version of a friendship and my disappointment is coming out of that. And so I'm going to release people around me from, from my expectation of perfection. and for, and also I think it's just kind of getting back, getting back out there. You know, a lot of times when we feel disappointment or hurt, we pull back to protect ourselves or because we're frustrated. And I think focusing more on, just practically focusing more on how I can love people and engage them and initiate with them rather than sitting and kind of licking my wounds and saying, well, they're not doing this and they're not doing that. in the book I call this being a there you are person rather than a here I am person. I think a lot of times we show up to places and relationships as here I am people, meaning I am going to, I am going to show up and I am here, but I am going to wait for somebody else to go first and initiating or asking a question in conversation or you know, inviting me to something. And I think instead a biblical idea of friendship and thinking of Jesus coming toward us is being a, there you are person. So we are the ones who go toward other people, we are the ones who invite, we're the ones who engage, we're the ones who take the conversation deeper into deeper waters and that kind of thing. I think a lot of times when I'm stuck in that idealized kind of thing is, I have to reorient myself and realize, oh, I'm being a here I am percent and I really need to be there. You are, because that's how Jesus is toward me. And it's really not. I'm not trying to manipulate the system, you know, I'm not trying to manipulate people to get what I want in doing that. I'm just reorienting myself to live according to what scripture tells me to do. Scripture is much more, much more interested in how I am with other people, how I treat them, than how I am treated by other people.

Part two of your book challenges us to rethink our expectations of friendship

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, and in part one of your book, you give us this new vision for friendship. And the chapters are when did friendship become such a struggle? And the dreams that we have for friendship and how God gives friendship and this messy, beautiful friendship, which you've done a great job of, of really challenging us to rethink our expectations of friendship. And then we've been talking about some of these threats that part two of your book is. Threats to friendship. Fear of being burned, the ashes of insecurity. And you go on and talk about some of those. And I think one of the threats that we have in our current lives is just time. You know, I think back to when I was growing up and it was just much more normal for us to have, you know, for our family to have families over for dinner and, and then the adults would sit around the table and they would maybe play a game. They would play dominoes or cards or a board game and the kids would run around and play. And it just feels like in today's world we are so go, go, go, go, go. We are just constantly taking our kids to sports or to school or just doing all of the activities that we need to do. And sometimes we gravitate towards friendships that are around those activities, which may be a good thing. And sometimes it's not a good thing if, I'm being really honest. But you know, those are just the people that we're here with. It's either these friends or no friends. How do we need to make time for friendship? How do you see that in the lens of scripture?

>> Amber Brown: Well, I, I think for me, one thing in my pursuit, in my journey of changing how I view friendship is, as I've already said, being a there you are person, being the one to go toward others. And a part of that is setting aside time to pursue people and making that a priority in my schedule. And that at times, as you've already alluded to, is very challenging with Work and kids and all that kind of thing. But I think that we always have pockets of time that we can set aside and prioritize friendship. For me, when my kids were little, I would get up super early and go meet a friend at a coffee shop before they got up or before my husband left for work. And I always dreaded getting up so early, but I was always glad I did it. And so I think any, anything where we can make deposits in friendship, just, you know, a penny, if you put a penny in over time, that adds up, to something. And so we have to make time deposits in relationships that are important to us. So, you know, I can't give everybody a prescription for that. But I think it's just important to say, where are those pockets of time? And how, if I'm married, how can I talk to my spouse about making that a priority for me as an individual, for my husband to have friends, and also for us as a family or as couples? I think, one of the greatest things we can give our kids is an example of what you just described of your parents having people over, sitting around the table, knowing how to have conversation with people, how to ask a question, how to encourage or comfort someone who's suffering. I think that our kids, they need that more than ever these days because we are so digitalized and isolated, and siloed, to have people in our home or to have them see that we prioritize going to meet a friend and that we're willing to, you know, leave them for a, meal. So that, because, because friendship and community is that important. And I think also prioritizing God's people, the community, that scripture that shows us this picture of that we are a family of God. And so prioritizing. I'm going to be at church with God's people, I'm going to seek friendship within the church. I am going to pursue opportunities to be with other, for me, other women around God's wor. That's where deep friendship can be developed. And that's not the only place. but that's important. And for our kids to see that, that's important to be in relationship, not just showing up to church, but in community with other believers, I think is just so, so important.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I think, that friendship is really important for marriage too. I think it's important for husbands to have friends who are men. And I think it's important for wives to have friends who are women. Because I know, you know, speaking from my own experience, Christine, for me and my husband, there are things that he will definitely talk to me about anything that I want to talk about, but not with the same enthusiasm that I would appreciate. You know, we don't always share the same kind of humor. My husband played hockey all through college, so he follows hockey very closely. And I am just not going to be that person who can talk to him about the latest documentary about the, you know, hockey stats or who's going to go the playoffs. And conversely, you know, he's not going to be able to talk to me about, you know, whatever I may be reading at the time or, you know, whatever that interests me. And so I think sometimes it's really important for us to have those groups of, for those friendships, because in ways that can enrich our marriage, and sometimes that can be hard in the. In the time, you know, of marriage, especially to protect your time. You absolutely need to. To spend time with your spouse. But there are ways, I think, that friendship can even strengthen your marriage. Do you agree with that?

>> Amber Brown: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. It's just an extra voice of encouragement of, help. It's. It adds fun. You know, friendship legends are fun as a part of that. And it kind of gets you out of your routine, your, Your home routine or your work routine. And I think it just adds some flavor, some spice, to life having these kinds of relationships. But for me, it's been especially important to have that spiritual encouragement of people who are different than me, women who have different gifts than me, different perspectives, to have their voices in my life at different. Especially at times of adversity or times where I'm making decisions, times where I'm struggling, that they can speak into my life has just. Just been such a valuable gift. But it has taken those pennies, sometimes penny, sometimes nickel deposits, to, To. To get there.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: That's a great analogy with the penny and the nickel deposits. And I know, you know, my m. my husband has a text group of men who he can text to pray for him, friends that will pray for him in a way that is just so enriching. We have so much more to talk about with Christine Houthi. Messy, beautiful friendships. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

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>> Amber Brown: I have a shepherd.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Who always keeps.

>> Amber Brown: Me safe and I found a healer Yes I did Knows my everything.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: And this is my story of redeeming love I have come to know him well.

>> Amber Brown: Oh, I have found a friend in Jesus he is everything to me and I have found a friend in Jesus yes, he is my everything oh, I found a friend in Jesus he is everything to me I have found a.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Friend in Jesus yes, he is my everything welcome back. Welcome back, friends. That is friend in Jesus by Cain. And I promise you, you will find no better friend than Jesus. But Jesus, in the grace that he gives, gives us friendships on earth to carry each other's burdens, to find joy, to share all of the trials and the triumphs and the tragedies that we go through in life. We don't have to do it alone.

Christine Hoover says today's friendships are under pressure because of comparison culture

And I'm talking today to Christine Hoover about messy, beautiful friendships. And today I think friendship is harder than ever because we have comparison culture, we have cancel culture. And friendships today are really under pressure. And many of us carry scars from being betrayed, from being disappointed, from being dropped or abandoned or used. That causes just to withdraw and say, you know what, it's just better to go it alone and to. And not have those friends. But listen, God designed friendships as one of his sweetest gifts. And it's meant to bring encouragement and joy and healing. And so, Christine, let's jump right into that and talk about that.

Christine Ran says friendships are messy and sometimes people can be hurt

We've talked, we've alluded to it a bunch that friendships are messy. They can be beautiful. Let's dive into the messy part because people can be hurt by friendships. And you have some encouragement that when those friendships heard that there may be a lesson that God has for us that we may miss if we just run away too quickly.

>> Amber Brown: Mm. Hm. Well, I mean, we all are pretty familiar with the verse in Proverbs. It says, as iron sharpens iron, that friendship is like iron sharpening iron. And so when we think about, hard things in relationships, we think about iron rubbing against iron. And if you've ever seen iron rubbing against iron, you know, there can be sparks, there can be, that can lead to fire. And, it's not. It's like edges rubbing against one another. And so I think part of our idea of friendship, we have to include in that definition whatever biblical friendship is, whatever definition we would give it, it has to include some part about being sharpened by other people and having our rough edges rubbed off. and I think that that's something we don't like to think about. We like to think, oh, friendship is like, people are just coming in my house without knocking, or we're going on vacations together or whatever. But God has designed friendship to sanctify us. And I think if we run away from any sorts of hard conversations or hard relationships too quickly, we can miss out on maybe something God wants to do in us through that relationship. I think about. I had very specific relationship, a few years back with a neighbor who also went to my church. And. And, you know, as I was getting to know, her kids were the same age. They were playing in the street often, and we would hang out. And I, you know, she just kind of rubs me the wrong way sometimes. And I. I think I rubbed her the wrong way sometimes. And she was just very different than me. And we had a lot over a couple of years, we had quite a bit of conflict. And there was just something about her that brought up some things in my own heart that I needed to look at, but I didn't want to because I didn't want. I didn't want the sharpening that came through my relationship with her. But through time, we had some pretty honest conversations with one another where she would confess to me, like, this is how I feel. I struggle with jealousy toward you. And I could be honest with her and tell her that I had struggled with some jealousy toward her and that her personality, you know, in some ways I wish I was more like her. so anyway, I think that through that, what I realized is that God had put her in my life for a reason. And she was not an easy friend. It was not an easy friendship. But I learned some things about myself and I learned some things about how other people, that how they experienced me that I would not have learned through any other way. And I Ran. I tried to run from that sanctification for a while, but she was really persistent and like, no, we're going to work this out. We're going to have these conversations. And I'm so glad that we did. and so I think I learned from that, that God puts, He puts people in our lives sometimes and he allows us to have these ruptures in relationships. I don't think he wants us to have these ruptures, but he can use those as gifts in our lives to show us some things about ourselves. The way we approach conflict may not be biblical or the way that we, approach other people or relate to them. It may be from a place of pride or it may be from a place of insecurity. And we don't know that until we are kind of rubbing up against the iron, sharpening iron. And so I would say to people, I don't think that. I do think that there are some times where friendships are not going to make it. Sometimes, that's just circumstantial, that nobody's done anything wrong. But I also think that sometimes we try to hit the escape hatch a little too quickly because we don't like, some of the difficulty that comes from these kinds of relationships and friendships.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: That's really convicting. And looking at that biblical image of iron, sharpening iron, you don't think about, you know, the, potentially uncomfortable part of that process. And, you know, that convicts me as a parent, Christine, to model the kinds of friendships that I want my kids to have to model those. And I think sometimes in this day of social media, you can see, you know, social media reels that are really popular. And it shows moms who are listening to a lot of times their daughters who come home and talk about friendship drama. And then you'll see a caption something like, somehow, and this is how I found myself hating this girl I don't even know. You know, all of a sudden I don't like this girl. And you find yourself invested in the drama. I think that's really convicting. To pull back on that perspective and to think, you know, what is God teaching you in this friendship? Because there are some friendships that are toxic. There are some friendships that are frankly abusive. But I think that we're too quick to put that label on it and we may call something toxic when really it's just toxic to my sense of well being and comfort. And I think that that can be really convicting. How do we, how do we translate that, those friendship principles to our Kids.

Christine: Sometimes when there's discord, children feel left out

>> Amber Brown: Such a good question. this, I mean, I think we feel it even more for our kids and we feel it for ourselves. Sometimes when there's a, discord or somebody, one of our children is feeling left out or they don't feel like they have any friends. I've had some of the most, some of the most heart wrenching conversations with my kids about friendship. And one of them that comes to mind is, one time one of my sons got in the car from hanging out with some friends and he, he told me that he had in some sense been mistreated. And I at first was like, are you sure you, you know, I'm asking questions to make sure that he understood the situation correctly. And I'm realizing he did understand the situation correctly. He was hurt and he was, he was in some ways bullied. And in that moment, I'm so sad. But I think, I think sometimes we need to sit with our kids in the sadness of what they're feeling and just be like, that is, that's hurtful or that's sad. but also that person isn't a good friend. Like what, let's talk about what friendship looks like. And I don't want to, you know, condemn that child, but I want to help them to see, I want to give them tools through that to say, oh, that's not what a friend does. A friend is somebody who would protect. A friend is someone who's going to say kind things rather than harmful things. And so helping them see that of like, I think that you need to in some ways release, in this specific situation, you need to release the desire that this person is going to be your friend. I think that you're pursuing this and they're clearly showing you that one, they're not a good friend and two, that they don't want to be friends with you. But who are people around you that you feel encouraged by or you feel like that they're kind to you? let's name those people. Okay, how are you going to pursue that friend? Maybe you've had your eyes set on this person that, that isn't a good friend. But let's turn our attention and let's think about ways we can invite that person to hang out or that kind of thing. So that came out of that conversation with them. and I think just helping kids observe how they feel around people, what makes them feel like, what gives them life, who encourages their faith, who encourages them to, do the right thing and helping them to see not only is that A good friend, but that's the kind of friend you want to be to other people. You want to be somebody who holds confidences because it hurt you when that other person told something you told them. and so just helping them, kind of giving them a perspective and forming their idea of what true friendship is. And how do you handle when you've been hurt and how do you know when you've hurt other people? And it's legitimately something that you need to go to them and you need to say, I'm sorry. Do you have the skill of saying I'm sorry? And all of these things are things we have to model for them in our own relationships, in our home, and also with friendships. But I think just being willing to enter into some of these hard conversations when it is hard for us as parents. I know that feeling of almost like a dagger in the heart when you know your child has been wounded. It's really hard to not get angry or to not, you know, lash out at the child or even the parents of the child. but to just help them to think biblically about how to respond and what they're going to do do with what they have experienced and what they know.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm seeing a very clear contrast between the two paradigms that you're giving. I'm seeing two choices here. For parents whose children experience difficulty in friendship. You can choose drama or discipleship. Those are. That's it. Because I see and I feel that temptation. I want to step into this melodrama and say, well, she should have done this, and I'm going to tell her mother. And, you know, I mean, you just step into the drama and, oh, well, let's tell this friend to tell this friend. And then all of a sudden, you're in on all of these conspiracies to manipulate friendships. It is not Godly. It is not godly. But I have been there, Christine, for the shame, you know, for the mama bear inside of me. But I really. I just feel the Lord convicting me. You're choosing drama over discipleship. And this is an opportunity. Friendship is an opportunity to disciple our kids. And one of the things that we want our kids to find in friendship is people who will give them what you call and what we know in Scripture as faithful wounds and with who will tell them the truth. We also want them to not have friends who are just going to be, you know, sycophants and just saying, like, oh, yes, everything you say is wonderful and great. What does it mean to have a faithful wound to have a hurt that you can trust.

>> Amber Brown: Well, I think that might be hard for children and teenagers. It's hard for us as adults. I think that that's another conversation we can have with our kids if something happens to. Where we do feel that their friend has tried to love them by telling them what's true to help them to see that that's actually what a friend does. but I would say for me, that's even something as an adult I really, really struggled with, struggled to do as well. I mean, I'm in a. I actually just yesterday was thinking about a friendship that I have where I know I need to call her, to call her to a higher place. but I. I've needed to sit with her where she is, but I need to at some point call her, color out a little bit with truth and love. and just say, hey, let's. Let's keep the goal in mind, this certain goal in mind. It's a biblical goal, and that's a hard thing to do. It's a hard line to walk of love and truth. but I think that one. We need to know that Scripture gives us permission and actually calls us to do that for one another. It's a part of sanctification, the sanctification process, and the way God's designed the church. but I think it's really, really important, and we can teach this to our kids. Is. Are we the person to say it? Do we have the relationship? I only have these kinds of conversations in relationships where I have a deep. It's a deep relationship, deep trust. And I've walked with them for a while. They could probably say I love them. I can say that I love them. And I think I'm the person. And that comes with much prayer. In the book, I read a whole chapter on this. Like, there's some things to do before you even go to a friend. M. But with much prayer. And I would say this friend that I was just talking about. I know the Lord has confirmed to me over and over through prayer through, sermons that I am the one to be with her in it. I am the one to. And for whatever reason, he's given me the favor with her to say some hard things and have some pretty, hard conversations. And so I just think that that comes with maturity and time. I don't know how necessarily we help our kids with that, but I do think we can model for them the depth of relationship that we would be willing to, take the risk of. Of being misunderstood to love our friends enough to tell them the truth. When the Lord leads us to do that.

You give a new vision for friendship in your new book

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Christine, you dive into that more in your book. You give a new vision for friendship. What threats we see that happen to our friendships, how we discover and deepen friendship. How do you be a friend? There are a lot of chapters on that. And how do we reach receive friends? There's some questions for friends to discuss together and some wisdom from the Bible on friendship. And it is a tough thing. But friendship doesn't require perfection because it doesn't exist. It just requires presence. And as you are seeking and developing friendships, I pray the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you. And I'll see you back here next time. The views and opinions expressed in this.

>> Amber Brown: Broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.