Hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing Hope for Healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends, and welcome to my favorite part of the afternoon, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. Listen from time to time on this program program we talk about some topics that are really, really tough. And we talk about things that we wish that we didn't have to talk about in this broken world. But we talk about things because we need to talk about them. We need to know that we are not alone. Today. We're talking about trusting God even in the broken seasons. And I want you to know that today's program does contain some sensitive discussion about grief and suicide and mental health. And so I want you to take a moment to adjust your list listening audience for those little ears that may be around. And for those of you who this is a more tender subject. I encourage you to listen, but maybe choose when you're going to listen. You can access the podcast at any time. And if you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide, There is support available 24 7. I want you to make sure that you know about the National Suicide and Crisis lifeline. That number is 988. Now most of you know to call 911 in an emergency 988 is for a mental health emergency. I encourage you to put this number in your phone and just put the contact as help. That's it, just help. And then if you know someone who you're concerned about, just feel free to share that and to call and to make sure that you are calling. If you feel like you're at a point of that desperation, you can also text the word home to the number 741741 and that will connect you to the crisis text line.
Dr. Nurse Mama welcomes Catherine Renfro to talk about suicide and grief
So today we're talking about someone who has walked this road. If you're a reg listener, you know, I've shared that suicide has deeply impacted my own life and the life of my family. We have been impacted by this. And we are welcoming a guest today who is here to courageously share her story. We're talking to Catherine Renfro now. She is the National Director of Women's Evangelism at the North American Mission Board. She has spent over a decade in full time ministry helping people discover their purse, their purpose in Christ. But what we know is that even people in ministry are not immune to this kind of heartbreak. And Catherine's story is not just one of Ministry success. It is one of deep personal loss. Now in her early 20s, Catherine received a phone call that would change her life forever when her brother Barrett took his own life. And so she has written a book about that. It's called Hope, Hurt and Healing, Experiencing Jesus in the Wake of Suicide. I really encourage you, if you have been impacted, if you know someone who is impacted, to get this resource for them, because she shares her journey through just unimaginable grief and how she found unexpected grace in the presence of Jesus. Catherine thank you so much for joining us today.
Catherine Renfro: Thank you so much, Dr. Jessica, for allowing me to be a part. I'm honored to be here.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Catherine I'm sure that, you know, growing up, this isn't something that you thought that you would be doing, sitting across the microphone, talking about this part of your story and this part of your life. So before we get there, let's go back to your growing up, how you came to know the Lord and how you stepped into ministry.
Catherine Renfro: Sure, man. I love to go back and think about what Jesus has done in my life. I. I just pray always that I never get over that. I grew up in a family that, that loved the Lord. My mom and dad had me and my brother and my sister in church every Sunday. I'll be honest, I didn't always love it at first, but they were so faithful just to. To have us there. They wanted us to grow up knowing the Lord. And, and, I' at being 13 years old, I had the opportunity to go on my very first mission trip. And I was so excited. Not necessarily about the missions opportunity, but for the fact that I would get to hang out with friends for an entire week. And so I signed up. And, it was one of those mission trips where during the day we, served and did different projects to help people in the community. And at night, we were a part of worship services. And I'll never forget one night just sort of looking around at the crowd and thinking, there's something about these people. They have something that I don't have. And it was a relationship with Jesus. And that's where I really realized that I knew a lot about Jesus, but I didn't actually know Him. I had never been saved. I didn't have a personal relationship with Him. And so I went home and talked with my parents and my pastor and his wife came over for dinner, with our family, and just sat down and spent time answering questions that I had about what it meant to follow Jesus. And it was such a special Night because I still remember it today standing in the living room of my parents house. my brother was there with me, my sister was there and all three of us gave our life to Christ. And that was the journey that literally changed everything. It was the night that changed everything. Jesus saved me and then I just had this passion, just for getting to know him more, serving him. I remember being a senior in high school and you know, you're filling out applications for college and I'm looking at all of the different degree options and I remember thinking, I just wish I could live on a forever mission trip. I grown to love serving people, pointing them to Jesus and, and I didn't know what ministry really looked like at that time, particularly vocational ministry. And so I landed on going to the University of South Carolina and I studied journalism, for those four years. but it was really my senior year of college where the Lord just started doing this work on my heart. And I was serving at my local church at the time. I was investing in middle school and high school girls and I absolutely loved it. And I started thinking, man, I wish I could do this forever. And so not knowing what that looked like, the student pastor at the time sat me down and he just said, hey Catherine I see a calling on your life for vocational ministry and I want to give you opportunities to serve and explore that calling. And just, I'm so grateful that someone sat down with me and expressed what they saw in my life because it was the first time that someone else articulated what I was internally wrestling with and that was this calling to ministry. And so I interned for the summer, turned down a full time job at a news station and began interning which then led me to go to seminary from there. And then I got my first full time job in the local church after that. So that's sort of the journey of coming to know the Lord and then him calling me into vocational journey and the rest has been just an unbelievable pathway of following him.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And you can see God's hand on it all along the way. I mean a journalism degree not wasted. You know, you're a writer now and just using those gifts that God with the seed that God had planted in your heart so long ago. I love that you talked about, you know, affirming that calling you're seeing in someone else's life. I think especially for teenagers who may be wrestling with that, so many of them think, oh, but me, you know, really me is this, would God use me? And to have someone who is Discipling them, who they trust, who is walking with the Lord, to say, yes, you can be used. I see this. I see the hand of God on your life in this way that is really, really powerful. So shout out to all the people who are working in youth ministry, because that is such important work. And. And so tell us, Tell us, Catherine. Tell us about your brother. Tell us what you want us to know about his life.
Catherine Renfro: Yeah, my brother, he was such a fun guy to be around. people loved being around him. He was sort of the life of the party. He always kept things interesting. I, like to say he never stayed inside the lines. you know, he's always pressing the boundaries. even as a kindergartner, my mom remembers getting a phone call. and one of the things that he could not do even as a kindergarten, was color inside the lines. And I feel like that's such a reflection of his life in general. Just staying outside the lines was so much fun. he grew up playing sports. He was a baseball player. He, played baseball through, elementary school, middle school, into high school. He did travel ball. So a lot of our summers were spent, at the baseball field and just had a blast with him. honestly, there was a season of my life where I wanted to be just like him. And so whatever he did, I tried to do. So I knew he played baseball, and I ended up playing softball and loved it, but we got to play sports and ball together. I, remember he kept his hair cut short, so I wanted to keep my hair cut short. You know, just little things like that. I just. I just really looked up to him and wanted to be just like him. And, you know, as I think about my brother's life, I think about who he was, but not just as a person. I think about who he was in Christ because I think a lot of times when tragic things happened, we like to define people by what happened to them. Or sometimes we define ourselves by things that happened to us. but what I know as followers of Jesus, our identity is, is rooted in Christ. And. And, you know, I think about my brother's life and the decision that he made, which I know we'll talk about in a few minutes, but the decision he made to. To take his own life, that doesn't define him. He's not defined by anything that he did or did not do here on earth, but defined by what Jesus had already done for him. And my brother had given his life to Christ. he knew the Lord had a relationship with him. Did he struggle? Absolutely. He struggled here on earth. but I also know the side of my brother that really loved the Lord and loved serving people. He, too, was involved in mission trips, and. And we had a blast doing those together. And so I'm very thankful for the time that the Lord gave us with him.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Catherine I agree with you completely. It's so important to celebrate his life and to say the things that you just did, because so often we. When you talk about that person, you know, you just think about that one event. But Barrett has a legacy. And even now, I'm so grateful for the way that you are honoring his life by providing help and hope for others, by being transparent and sharing your experience, because this is a really tough and tender thing to have. And I'm so grateful, too, that God gave you that reassurance of his salvation. You describing that earlier, being in your living room, knowing with full confidence where he is and that you will see him one day again, is just. Absolutely. Just, beyond belief. Because we think we live in a broken world, and we think, okay, well, then why do these things have to happen? And there's some things that we just won't understand this side of heaven. But I can see. And your story and so many other stories, I can see God's grace in preparing you for those moments and giving you those moments of comfort that would come later. And so, Catherine w. W. In the second segment, we'll talk. We'll dive into that story a little bit more deeply. But for now, I want you to talk about sharing your story, because that is a really hard thing to do. What was your calling? What was your hope in sharing this? Because I think, especially in communities of faith, it's such a tough thing to talk about.
Catherine Renfro: Yeah. Well, I just remember when we walked through, the loss of my brother, I didn't know anyone who had encountered something similar. And so it felt like I was alone in the process. Although I was surrounded by so many people, it still felt like. Like I was alone. And. And I'll be honest, I did not want to write this book. I remember being about two years later in Lord, just sort of pressing on my heart to start writing. And I opened my computer. I think I typed one word, and then I closed it, because it just felt, It felt like too much. And over the course of. Of years, the Lord was so faithful to keep putting it on my heart and prompting me to write. And I was not faithful to be obedient in that for a long time. but I Remember going for a run one day and just the Lord being so clear that he was calling me to write. And it had nothing to do with our, but how he wanted to take our story and show other people that there is hope in the midst of their story. And so that was, I think the whole purpose of him calling me to write in the first place was all about Jesus and pointing people to Jesus in the midst of it. well, after I was on the run, I met my neighbor that at the end of the run and we started talking about life and we started talking about a relationship with Jesus and she was sharing with me a journey she had been on. And so I started sharing about the journey I've been on. And she says, and I quote, you have to write a book. And I said, funny you should say that. The Lord's been asking me to do it. I just don't know where to start or, or what to do. It turns out she was an author and she said, what if I coach you along the way? And she did that. And you know, it took me a lot of time, but it felt like every time I sat down to write, somebody would call me who has either just lost someone or who was struggling themselves. That and I know that was the Lord.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's the Lord. That is absolutely the Lord here. Catherine Renfro we're at our first break. We have so much more to talk about. What an amazing testament to God's goodness. We will be right back with more from Catherine Renfro. Hope hurt and healing experiencing Jesus in the wake of suicide. We'll talk more about trusting God even in the broken seasons. When we come back. Candace talks about finding out she was pregnant. Thankfully, an ultrasound provided by PreBorn allowed her to hear her baby's heartbeat. The sonogram sealed the deal for me. My baby was like this tiny little spectrum of hope and I saw his heart beating on the screen and knowing that there's life growing inside. I mean that sonogram changed my life. I went from just Candace to Mom. Thank you to everybody that has given these gifts. You guys are giving more than money. You guys are giving love. Preborn currently has clinics that do not have ultrasound machines. Would you consider a leadership gift and sponsor a machine today? These life Saving machines cost $15,000 more than most. centers can afford Your donation will save countless lives for years to come. Dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby or go to preborn.com/AFR.
Fight On My Knees by Evan Craft: Don'T. Give up, don't give up up on the ones you love. Oh, just A little faith is enough help me to remember My help comes from heaven God, when I surrender I find all I need Strength in every weakness in the name of Jesus Always trying to see Can I fight on my knees?
Today we are talking about suicide and grief and mental health and loss
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Fight on My Knees by Evan Craft. And today we are talking to Catherine Renfro. We're talking about trusting God even in those broken seasons, about fighting on our knees, about praying when we don't know what to say. Today we are talking about a tough subject, but one that we need to talk about, especially as the body of Christ. We are talking today. I want to give a. An advisory to our listeners that we're talking about suicide and grief and mental health and loss. And if you or someone you know has thoughts of suicide, please make sure that you know about the National Crisis lifeline. That number is 9, 8 8. That's 9, 8, 8. Or you can text the word home to the number 741-741 to be connected to the Crisis Health line. And as Catherine shares, has been sharing with us, as shared in her book, grief after suicide is really not a journey that anyone wants to walk for sure, but it's not a journey that anyone should walk alone. Although sometimes our tendency when that happens is to hide. We have a lot of grief. We may have a lot of guilt. We may have just a lot of shame for reasons that are beyond our control, for reasons that are logical or not. But here we're going to explore the role of scripture, of community, of the church, and really bringing comfort and healing to those who are hurting. And even the subtitle of this book, Experiencing Jesus in the Wake of Suicide. Jesus is always there, even in the things that just seem the hardest that we don't understand. And today we'll talk about really how we as friends and family ministry leaders, how do we walk alongside someone who is experiencing that? So, Catherine, I want to go to the story of what happened. That's, largely what you share in your book. And there was one night, the night that Barrett died that really your life was changed. And I. I'd love for you to share about that, what you feel led to share.
Catherine Renfro: Or. I, So I was in seminary at the time. I was in my very first semester, and I had gone home for fall break and had been hanging out with some friends. It was a Saturday night. I had come home, gone to sleep, and then my phone started ringing at about 2:22 in the morning, which would be Sunday morning at this point. October 15th, 2008. And I remember picking up my phone, seeing my brother's name come across the display. And I put the phone back down because it was so early in the morning. It wasn't, wasn't abnormal for my brother to call, at random times. but for whatever reason, I just felt so prompted to pick up my phone. It was almost like a, ah, prompt from the Holy Spirit just to say, answer. You need to answer this. And so when I picked up my phone, I could just hear my brother on the other end. And he was, he was crying and he just kept shouting my name. and he just kept saying, I can't keep doing this. and I had no idea what he was talking about at the moment. So I, I just tried to talk with him, you know, for a little bit, try to figure out what was going on, what he meant by that. And it just turns out he had a tough night. My brother in the past had struggled with alcohol, usage, and a little bit of drug use. And he had, he had been clean for several months at this point. But for whatever reason, after a tough night, he had turned back to some of those things. And the enemy, I'm convinced now, just had him thinking he would never escape this cycle. because he just kept saying, I can't keep doing this to you guys. I can't keep doing this. And he told me on the phone that, that morning that, that he was going to end it all. And I tried so hard to convince him not to. I told him, you know, we were going to be on our way to his house just to give us time. I'm so grateful for the way the Lord works because typically I would have been four hours away at school, but because I was home for fall break, I was only 30 minutes from where he lived. but he told me not to come because we would not find him alive. And, and m. He did exactly what he said he would do. He ended it all. took his own life. and I'll tell you, it was a journey because I couldn't understand why. And I think there were two components to that. I thought, I don't understand why he could make this decision or would make this decision. But then I couldn't understand why God would allow this to happen. And I sort of started thinking back to my life and, and you know, I had given up, up my own desires. I had given up my own dreams. I was following the Lord. I was pursuing this calling into vocational ministry. I was, I was doing everything that I knew to do to follow him. And so I couldn't reconcile being my first semester away in seminary and then losing my brother to suicide.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I mean, Catherine you articulated that exactly what I know everybody's going to be thinking as they're listening to that story, picturing you, your first semester in seminary, your first weekend home, all of those things, and wondering, how could God not prevent this from happening? And it's so hard to accept the reality that we live in a broken world. And, and how did you even begin to pick up the pieces to go? Because you had to go back to class. You're. You're in the middle of the semester, but here you are, face to face with the most raw, gut wrenching kind of grief you can imagine. You're talking to your sister, you've got your parents, you have all of this in the immediate aftermath. What did that even look like in the beginning? To be able to start to pick up the pieces of your life that was shattered on that night?
Catherine Renfro: Yeah, for so long, it just felt surreal. my dad and I drove over to his house that night, and by the time we got there, there was already, first responders. I remember my dad making me sit in the truck while he talked to an officer. And I, could see him deliver the news to my dad that my brother was gone. And it was almost like I didn't know what to think or what to feel. It just. Just felt. I just felt numb all of a sudden. And I remember calling a friend of mine and just. Just saying, you know, he did it. My brother did this. And she had no idea what I meant, but it was like I could not even articulate what was happening in the moment, you know? And, so. So I remember that happening. I remember us going home in the early morning hours. and then my sister and I, it was a Sunday morning at that point. We got up and we went to church, just the two of us. my mom and dad stayed back. People were starting to come over to our house, but I think we were just longing for a sense of normalcy, even though there was nothing normal about our lives in those moments. But we went to the church where we knew was, really just a safe place for us and also a place where we could encounter the presence of Jesus and the people of Jesus. but even then, it just was, unfathomable. Like, to think this is actually real life. trying to get back, into a normal routine was all I could think about. After we had the funeral and we buried him, I thought, okay, if I just go back to school, we'll get into some sort of routine and things will be okay. And, I think I was just trying to convince myself. I wish someone would have told me in those moments that it's okay to not be okay. Now. We don't stay in those moments because our hope lies in Jesus, who is greater than our circumstances. But I just felt like I needed to make, make things seem, like they were okay. I went back to class and it just felt like I encountered more and more obstacles. my very first class back was a counseling class. And I remember someone raising their hand and asking a question that, that, that really just poured salt into open wounds. this guy had no idea what we had just encountered over fall break. But he said, why do we tell family members who have a loved one that have taken their life that they're in heaven if we know that's not true?
Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, goodness.
Catherine Renfro: And that. That question rocked my world. honestly, I, I knew where my brother was, so I couldn't figure out where this train of thought came from. Like, I don't know where in the Bible that is. And I wrestled.
The Lord was so gracious to put people around me who made phone calls
I don't even know how the professor responded. I actually got up and left the class because it just felt like it was so painful in those moments. but I'm so thankful because the Lord was so gracious just to put people around me who made phone calls to me at just the right time. You know, even walking out of that class, I got a phone call and a friend's like, hey, the Lord just put you on my heart and I want to see how you're doing. And it's like, man, those were some of the most difficult moments. And yet the Lord allowed people to call. Or I would get a text message with someone praying for us, or someone would point me to scripture when I struggled to see, the truth of who Jesus is or the promises in his word. And so, those are some of the ways that we started. Just, just. It was a day by day battle really. But it was this need just to come to Jesus. It not waiting for everything to be okay, but to come in the brokenness, to come in the pain and allow him to really just do what only he could do in my life.
Catherine, what were some of your emotions during your grief journey
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, Catherine I know everyone's experience with grief is different, everyone's story is different, but there are some emotions that are the same. I would love for you to share about maybe some of those emotions that you had, some of that emotional journey. Because with This, I feel like there's. There's a pressure that comes to hide certain emotions. Certain emotions are acceptable to express. Certain are not. Maybe they're not socially acceptable. Maybe there's your own fear that holds you back from sharing those. What was your emotional journey like in. In the context of your healing?
Catherine Renfro: Yeah, there were, I feel like every emotion possible is what I felt during that journey. I felt, ah, a lot of confusion and guilt. how could I have prevented this? How could I have stopped this? and. And I know now there is nothing that I could do. But the enemy wants to use these questions just to drive a wedge, you know, in our minds and relationships with who we know, with. With Jesus. I remember just the Lord putting, Proverbs 3, 5 and 6 on my heart. And it just became a passage of scripture that I clung to so tightly. It says, trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. Acknowledge him in all your ways and he will make your path straight. And I just thought, okay, I can't understand why this happened. I can't understand why I wasn't able to prevent it, what I could have done differently. but I know that that's why the Lord calls us to trust in him with all of our hearts and to lean not on our own understandings because we can't understand it all. And there will be things that we don't know the answer to on this side of heaven. And you mentioned that earlier, but, that was one thing. Another thing that I would question is, Lord, where are you? Where I know that we know. He says, I promise to never leave you or forsake you. But in those moments, I felt like the Lord was nowhere near. And it was almost like at night is when I felt that the most. Like when the. When the day just sort of shut down, things got quiet. more questions came to mind. I would replay the events of that evening. And I remember just saying, lord, I don't know who you are, and I don't know that you are nearby. And I would just, just, just share those honest emotions with him. And I. I'm so thankful that. That I woke up one morning and the Lord just led me to Psalm 139, verses 7 through 10, which says, where can I go from your spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there. If I make my beds in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the Sea even there, your hand will guide me. Your right hand will hold me fast. And it was like in those moments where he would just point my mind a scripture that he would remind me, I am m. Here. I am with you, and you're not. Walking through these circumstances alone. I, think he would remind me of the need for His Word. There were times where I did not want to open the Bible like I did. I didn't really want to see what was written in there, just because I wasn't sure if I believed it. In those moments, and as followers of Jesus, I don't know that. That we feel comfortable saying in our deepest moment, deepest moments of pain, that I don't know what I even believe right now. and then I would see, like Psalm 119, 105. Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light unto my path. Path. And I know it's where we find him is in His Word. And I know it's where we're. We're going to hear his voice is through His Word. And so I'm grateful just that, that when I felt those emotions, he was faithful to respond, through His Word. And if it wasn't me reading His Word for myself, it was sprint sending me scripture that would remind me of the truths of his words along the way. one other passage of Scripture I'll share with you that, that the Lord used to just, bring so much, confidence, I guess, in. In him is, after hearing that question from a classmate of mine about, where people spend eternity if they. If they take their life. I sat down with my pastor at the time and just explained what I had just walked through, what our family had been through. And then this question that someone in our class had just asked, and he was so gracious just to talk about spiritual warfare, which we don't talk about very often. And he had explained how that plays out sometimes in the lives of believers particularly, and how it played out in my brother's life that night. My brother knew that there was hope in Jesus. He knew there was forgiveness in Him. He knew these things. Things, but he couldn't see it. But in Romans 8, verse 38 and 39, it says, I'm convinced that neither death nor life, angels nor demons, neither present nor future nor powers, neither height nor depth nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God for those who are in Christ Jesus. And, that was where I could just take heart and know where he is.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Catherine, that is so hard you're right. Take heart that in this world we will have trouble. And you have encountered the most heartbreaking kind. But you are here to share hope. I have more questions. We have more to talk about. We'll talk more with Catherine Renfro Hope, hurt and healing on the other side of this break. Don't go away. Dr. John Oswalt from the American Family Studios documentary the God who Speaks an.
Dr. John Oswalt : Anthology is a collection of writings on a common theme, and that's what the Bible is. The Bible is the book of Yahweh. It's the book of God. God who is found in three persons. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And this book, with its incredibly common understanding of who God is, why we're here, what life is about, what the world is. This book is the book that speaks to people in incredibly different situations, incredibly different cultures, incredibly different points of view, and yet speaks. Visit thegodwhospeaks.org
If I Got Jesus by Ben Fuller and Megan Danielle: I've had a dollar to my, name. I've had friends that walked away. And I've even lost myself a time or two. There were bridges crossed and burned. but through all the wreckage, I have learned there is one thing that I can never lose. If I got Jesus I've got all that I could ever need Take the world away from me and I'll be okay. If I got Jesus there's a hope that's living deep inside A joy that I could never hide In a safe place to fall If I got Jesus I got it all.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That's if I Got Jesus by Ben Fuller and Megan Danielle. And that's really the message we're talking about today. If you've got Jesus, you've got everything that you need. In a world that seems hopeless, you can find hope. We're talking today to Catherine Renfro
We are talking about Catherine losing her brother to suicide back in 2008
I do want to advise you. We are talking about a. A sensitive issue today, but one that touches way too many people, way too many families. And we're here to help you find help and hope in the midst of hurting. We are talking about Catherine losing her brother to suicide back in 2008. She's written a book about it. It's called Hope, Hurt and Healing, Experiencing Jesus in the Wake of Suicide. And Catherine you have been sharing your story so beautifully, and I have a couple of questions based on what you said.
You talked about feeling guilty about your brother's suicide
the first question that I want you to answer is go back to that guilt that you said that you were feeling. Because I think this is. Although everyone's experience is different, this is very common. And I see this people feeling Guilty. I wish I'd seen the signs. What if I'd done this? And playing that what if game? And you shared earlier that you came to a place of rest in that. In Christ. But I know there are a lot of people listening who still have not come to that place of rest. And so I would love for you to speak to them specifically. Just about feeling that guilt and especially the way you experienced it with your brother calling you. How did you give that over to the Lord?
Catherine Renfro: Yeah, I will say, didn't happen overnight. And so I think a lot of times we're like, if we trust the Lord, we should be able to just turn this over to Him. and. And we should. And we do learn to do that. and he's so gracious to meet us in the depths of the brokenness and the guilt. But it is so enemy. Just puts these questions in our minds. We should have seen the signs. We should have been able to. To talk this person out of it. How could we have helped? What could we have done differently? And those are real, real feelings that so many of us experience. And, and I'll say you may feel that now, and then you release it to the Lord, and then you may feel that again in, in a couple of days or weeks, months or years down the line. I think it's this constant running back to Jesus. I, think about First Peter 5, 7. It says, Cast your cares upon the Lord, for He cares for you. And so I think we have to take these feelings of guilt and really give those to the Lord, knowing He sees and he cares. and the. And the truth is, a lot of times we want to know how we could have saved someone. And I know for me, I've struggled with taking on this savior complex almost, as I've come to know, more and more people who have struggled with this, who have, who have had these thoughts and desires to take their own life due to mental health, health, challenges. And I. And I. It's almost like I feel this need to step in and rescue. And that's not what the Lord has called us to do. In, fact, we can't rescue anybody. Ah, I think the Lord allows us to. To point people to him and we just have to trust him, just to do what only he can do in, in those lives. But when we lose someone, we can't take. We can, can't. We can't bear the burden of that because it's not our fault. And there's nothing we could do to change the situation. But we can trust the God who is sovereign over every circumstance and situation and know that we may not have all the answers, but he does. And so run back to him every single time those thoughts of guilt come up.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Catherine that is a really powerful truth. It's really hard to believe in the sovereignty of God, but that is the truth here. That is the truth. If God wished to intervene, if God saw it fit to intervene, he would. But if he intervened in every negative circumstance ever, we wouldn't live in a fallen world. And that is the reality. And somehow I say this all the time. If God was small enough to be understood, he wouldn't be big enough to be worshiped. And somehow, in a way that we do not understand, he will make all things right. And there, And your brother is in a place where there's no more crying, no more guilt, no more pain. And you will see him again. But on the other side of this, I want you to speak to what you. What you said earlier, what your brother said, what Barrett said when he called you. I can't keep putting you through this. Because the other side of that lie is that people who are hurting people are feeling desperate. They start to believe the lie that the enemy is so good at telling, that the world would be better off without you, that your family would be happier that you. You know, you are putting them through torture like you are not worthy of life. And they start to become more afraid of living than they are of dying. And I would love for you to speak to that, knowing that there are people listening who are thinking about taking their own life. And I think it's important and it's fair to know the weight of that impact.
Catherine Renfro: Yeah, I think the. The only thing I know really to say is. Is exactly what you just said. It is a lie from the enemy. The enemy has come to steal, kill, and destroy. And the enemy is out, to wage war on our minds and on our souls and out to destroy. And for those who are feeling like the best option is to no longer be here, I, would just say that it's not true. And I understand you can hear that and struggle to believe that. But I go back to Jesus's words. He says, in this world, you will have trouble. But take heart. I have overcome the world. World. It's not. You might have trouble. If it's not, maybe you'll have trouble, but it's. We will have trouble. And trouble for some looks like mental. Mental illness, some trouble. It looks completely different. But we live in a broken world. And the sin in our. In our lives is what separates us from God. But he loved us so much that he sent his son, Jesus, to live this perfect life that you and I couldn't live. And he died on the cross, this death that we deserve, taken on the punishment for our sin and making a way for us to be forgiven. And what I would say is there is so much forgiveness and grace and hope in Christ, and he can take the messiest parts of us and redeem them. And he's writing a story in our life. And sometimes I would just encourage us just to. A lot of times we like to pick up the pen and take control and write, but that's that, you know, sometimes we just have to surrender and drop the pen and let him write a story. And he'll write an incredible story of forgiveness and redemption and healing, and there's grace to be found in him. And, I wish every person who felt like this could talk to a family who lost someone, because I think if my brother could talk to us now, first of all, I don't think he would have made the decision that he made. I think he wasn't thinking clearly in the moment, due to some things that were in his system. But I also know he would never want to hurt his family. And it does. It leaves the wake of suicide, leaves family members in so much pain and hurt that will last, you know, for a lifetime. I've said. I say this often. wounds do heal, but scars last for a lifetime. And I know the hearts of people. We don't want to hurt anybody. and so for someone who's struggling with those thoughts, I would say one, it is a lie from the enemy, too. There's hope and healing in Christ and your life. Life matters. And you are loved by so many people. And. And just those people want to help you and see you also get help.
Dr. Jessica Peck: We know from research on survivors that when asked when they survive an attempt, most of them are so grateful that they have an opportunity at life. And so we. We know that. And I think it just is. You can't say it any more clearly than you did, Catherine, that the enemy comes to. To steal, to kill, and to destroy. And that happens here. And so I'd love for you just to take the last few minutes here, Catherine to talk to families, to communities, to people who are going through that. Because I think about that person in seminary who said that question that probably has no idea even to this day, how much that rocked your world. And knowing that even in the goodness of God. He can take that question and use it it for your good, to have a prompt so that now you have come to a point of certainty on knowing what you believe on that. And maybe it did have some good in that. I think about, you know, what Joseph said, that what you intended for evil, but God intended for good and the saving of many lives. But there's a lot of times where we just don't know how to talk about this well. We don't know how to act well. What advice would you give to communities who experience this peripherally? You know, it's a friend, it's a, it's a friend's child. It's. It's somebody else. How do you walk alongside them?
Catherine Renfro: Well, yeah, that's a great question. there's a couple of things that I would encourage. Just walking alongside someone, I would say just show up. the ministry of presence goes further than any word that can be spoken. And a lot of times we feel like we need the right words to say. but I go back to Galatians, Chapter six, verse two, that says, bear one another's burdens, and so in doing so, you'll fulfill the law of Christ. And sometimes we just, we just need people to come alongside and help bear the weight of those burdens. I think about the paralytic that was carried on the mat to Jesus by his friends, you know, and they get there and there's this crowd surrounding Jesus. And when they can't get to Jesus, they climb up on the, the roof of the house, cut a hole in the roof and lower him down. I think sometimes we're the ones that get to carry people to Jesus. And for families who have, who have lost someone, to, to suicide, I would say it's okay to be the one who needs to be carried to Jesus. let people come around you and carry you to Him. then I would, I would say, just acknowledge that there's unanswered questions. We want to understand it all. And the truth is that we're not going to understand everything on this side of eternity. But I Love what Jeremiah 33. 3 says. This call to me will answer you. So when we have questions, I think there's two ways to respond. We can either run from God in our response or we can run to Him. And I would encourage families who, who have walked this journey and people who are coming alongside of someone who's walked the journey, and lean into Jesus together, seek him together, and allow him just to speak, in a way that only he can in such a personal way, through his word. The other thing that I've seen just played out in my own life just so many times is what, Second Corinthians 1 says. It says, God comforts us so that we can comfort others with the comfort we ourselves have received. Less than 30 days after losing my brother to suicide died, I encountered a young lady who came up to me and just said, Catherine I'm terrified that my sister will be in your shoes one day. And this young lady had struggled, with, some things, that had caused her to want to take her own life multiple times. And we got to sit down together. She. She saw what our family had just walked through. she said she saw how I was, pursuing Jesus, which is, by the way, is only by the grace of the Lord, because there were so times that I was tempted to just run from him, you know, but she ended up, we've talked about the gospel, and we talked about the hope that there is in Christ, and she gave her life to Jesus that day, and he literally changed everything for her. And so what I would say is, is God literally takes. You mentioned this earlier, what the enemy intends for harm. He uses it for good, for the saving of many lives. And that's what he can and will do through your story. Story, research shows every 40 seconds, someone takes their life. Right now, what that tells me is there is a need for hope, there is a need for truth, there's a need for Jesus, and. And maybe the Lord uses your family and your story, to show someone else, who he is and how he can come alongside and how he really is the great redeemer, rescuer, and provider. And so, I've seen so many people just come to know Jesus as a result, and I pray that's the same, for every person listening as well.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Amen, Catherine Yes, that is one of my favorite scriptures. I think people often leave off that little phrase for the saving of many lives. And in this case, it could not be even more true. Thank you for sharing your story, Catherine. We won't know the side of heaven, how many lives your brother's life has saved and how many lives you are, your courage and obedience and sharing your story has saved. And if you're looking for more resources, of course, get a copy of Catherine's book, Hope, Hurt, and Healing Experiencing Jesus in the Wake of Suicide. You can also go to NickV, as in Victor nickvministries.org if you've been following along you know, I've had a series with Nick Vujicic at, the Champions for the Brokenhearted. And one of those shows that we did was featuring the resources available for responding to suicide and specifically preparing your church to respond. So please go and check that out. Remember that the hotline is 9, 8, 8, and wherever you are, whatever you are doing today, whatever burdens you're carrying, I pray that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you. And I'll see you right here next time.
Jeff Chamblee: The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of, the American Family association or American Family Radio.
