Dr. Jessica Peck: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection and the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound250 and say the keyword baby or visit preborn.com/AFR American.
: Family Radio would like to say thank you to PreBorn. We value our partnership with PreBorn as we share some of the same goals, namely the saving of unborn babies and also saving their mothers souls through Jesus. We'd also like to thank you for your support of preborn. You can donate anytime at preborn.com A gift of just $28 provides a free ultrasound for an expectant mother. This NRB broadcast is underwritten in part by PreBorn. Hello and welcome to the doctor Nurse Mama show prescribing Hope for healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of the afternoon, getting to spend time with you prescribing Hope for healthy families. And listen, today I, I am on location prescribing Hope on the Road. I'm coming to you live from the National Religious Broadcasters Conference. We are here. We are. We are just being able to be with so many people who are invested in you. Yes, that's exactly right. They're invested in you. As I'm walking through the hallways, there are people talking about how can we serve our listeners? How can we equip them with messages that are going to encourage them for their families. That is an exciting place to be in a world full of bad news. There is good news here today, and we do see bad news. And one of those messages we're talking about even here at NRB is that the world has changed. We are raising children in a profoundly different world than even 10 years ago. My kids are just starting to get to that launch age and really I raised my kids pre iPad in the grocery store stage. And when I look and teach and I work in pediatrics, I see families all the time and I see them come in with their strollers that close with one button. I think about the time that my husband may or may not have destroyed a stroller in public and thrown it in the dumpster because we couldn't get it to, to collapse. You know, the world has changed and from those things that are just inconveniences, the world has changed to a lot more in the culture, a lot more difficult things. It's not just faster, it's not just louder, it is fundamentally different. And parents are struggling to keep up. That's why we're here. Today, kids are being shaped by digital saturation, by algorithms, constant exposure to competing worldviews. We have echo chambers like never. And many of our ministry strategies were taking our kids to church too, to try to help. But those ministry strategies were built for a world that if we're really honest, no longer exists. And we have program driven ministries instead of people driven ministries. And information is everywhere. But what our kids need even more than that is formation. What they cannot replace, what the world cannot replace, is those trusted guides, those safe relationships, those adults who walk with them over time and disciple them and teach them how to walk with Jesus. And we know and are discovering even more that faith is just not going to stick without the context of healthy relationships. And so we are talking about parents and churches working together in parallel. And we are going to find hope in all of this. I'm really excited for to talk with my guests. We have back Matt Markins. He is a co author of this book that I have right here. Forming Faith in my Hands It's Forming Faith Discipling the Next Generation in a Post Christian Culture. Now these authors, Mike Handler, Sam, say his last name for me. Luce Sam Luce, they have co authored this book and they have bring decades of pastoral leadership, family ministry, experience global discipleship through their work with Awana, which is a pioneer in child discipleship serving churches around the world. They're not only ministry leaders, but fathers who care deeply about the kind of faith that our kids are going to carry into adulthood. Can you see my sense of optimism here even though the world is so tough? Matt, these kinds of messages from ministers like you really encourage me. Welcome back.
Matt Markins: It's great to be with you.
Your earliest memory is the day your dad walked out on your family
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, let's just reintroduce yourself to the listeners, tell them a little bit about you and what's given you such a passion for this message.
Matt Markins: Yeah, so, I'm the president and CEO of Awana. probably my earliest memory is the day that my dad walked out on our family. That is rough in my mind's eye. Wow. I'm sitting on the floor. my older five year, older brother of five years is beside me to my left. My, my parents left the door open. My dad is screaming and yelling, carrying boxes and clothes draped over his arm. Out the door. But my brother's sticking. You know the Disney golden books with the golden spine? He's putting those in front of my face. What's he doing? He's distracting me from the moment. Well, in the weeks to follow, my mother finds her way to a local church. And I remember being in a room that had two adults and two kids, Me being one of them, so four of us. And there's a man who, I presume who is his wife, and he's got a guitar and he's singing the Jesus songs. And from a very young age, I remember thinking, I want this Jesus. This is so much better than what my life is. So my mother continues to go to church. She marries my stepdad. I grew up with Jesus. Peter going across the flannel graph, walking on the water and shout out.
Dr. Jessica Peck: For the flannel graph. You know, all the Bible stories. I'm always going to fall for the flanal guy.
Matt Markins: So I grew up. That was my childhood. Growing up in children's church, in Sunday school, learning the Bible, surrounded by loving, caring adults who pointed me to Christ. So what my parents couldn't give me, Getting me to church got me access to people who discipled me. The church discipled me and pointed me to Christ.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is such an encouraging testimony. I've heard you share that before. I could hear you share it a hundred times because there are kids out there with that same kind of experience. That is not a new story. That is a story that has been told from the beginning of the fall. From that is a story of a broken world. But there is hope in that. And today we're here to talk about this specific book, Forming Faith. Tell us why this book is different. There are a lot of people out there talking in this space, but to me, Matt, when I read this, I thought, yes, this is the message for the moment.
Matt Markins: Well, three quick answers to that. The first one is the. The problem we're trying to solve as an organization is answering this question. What is it the church does that tends to form lasting faith? In other words, of all the pursuits of a church community, of all the resources, investments we make, how we spend our time, what is it that we do that forms faith in children? So from a macro level, that's really everything we do is trying to answer that question. But specifically within this book, we're trying to solve two problems. The first half of the book addresses how do we move? Help the church move from attraction to formation. Attraction is good. Who doesn't want a church that's attracting People, of course, we want to grow our church, but in America, we've had an obsession with numerical growth at the absence of formation. So in the first half of the book, we discuss how do we help the church do that, especially as it relates to children, because we've used children's ministry as a tool, pumped it with entertainment and what we call the Bible light strategy to make it more fun. But in the absence of formation, and we've lost a generation. So we call that the old map. The second half of the book, we're trying to solve the problem of what we call the church and home. Stalemate. Think of what's a stalemate. Like, it's two entities, two or more entities that are stuck in their relationship. Well, the church says, parents, hey, you're responsible to disciple your kids spiritually. And parents say, we think you're responsible. So we've got these two entities that love one another. They think positively of one another, but they don't know how to get past this level of stuckness. And we really walk through how do we get through that?
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Matt, you just said a lot of things with a really nice and friendly voice, but, man, M, you dropped some serious truth in there. And if people really will stop and take a moment and consider what you say, that's going to step on some toes. But that is the truth that is needed for this moment. And you and I have talked about before since COVID especially when the curtains were kind of pulled back on church and everybody was doing church online, and all of a sudden we were comparing and we lost that people connection. I do see a little of that lingering on and feeling like with all of this technological pressure that you have to keep track with all of the. All of the bells and whistles. The old map that you said, I just wrote it down because that's so good to think about. But you are really focusing on formation. That is a timeless truth that has not changed. We need spiritual formation, the way in which we meet culture, our kids in the culture that changes. Why is formation so important in a world of information?
Matt Markins: Well, there's a saying that says it's not a matter of are our children being discipled. It's a matter of who or what is discipling our kids. In other words, we think we're kind of living in neutral. Well, no, we're always being formed. You might accept your cultural surroundings, your daily norms as neutral. but it's not neutral. It's in some way, it's forming them in ways outside of the Ways of Jesus. So what we're asking is, hey, let's ask ourselves as a church and as parents, how's the culture forming us or forming our children? How can we also form them as disciples? Jesus said, broad is the path that leads to destruction, but narrow is a path that leads to life. In other words, it's easy to get out of bed, live our lives normal, not think critically about the environment that our kids are living in. And they're going to inevitably have many options to walk down the broad path. But child discipleship says, hey, what are the ways biblically as well as research backed and consistent with church history that form children in the ways of Jesus? And if we can understand what those are, we can build our home around that, we can build our church around that. You can build a Christian school or sports team around that. Those core objectives are what we need to be focusing on.
Dr. Jessica Peck: The difference is that takes intention. And I think that we live, in this tension really, of having parents who did not grow up in the world they're raising their kids in. And so there's this disconnect, there's a knowledge gap. I mean, we're going to our fifth graders to try to fix our phones. Right, like help me out, the IT.
Matt Markins: Director in our home.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Exactly, because they know how to use this technology. And there's things that we can't anticipate. Like when we're teaching our kids to drive a car, we learned how to drive a car. We know what to tell them. We've lived in that experience when they're, we're trying to tell them to navigate this online world. It's really difficult. So I see two groups of parents, Matt. I see the, the parents who think, okay, I'm going to be engaged, I'm going to, you know, figure out all of these things. And, and my kids are not going to be exposed to that. Like, I'm just going to cut off the exposure. So now I don't have a problem. And then I see the parents who are like, okay, I don't really know what is going on or how to look at what's going on. So I'm just going to have good faith and hope that everything's okay. And both of those strategies can end badly. But I empathize because I'm there. Like, what, what do we do? I think it's just this natural kind of disconnect because it's so overwhelming.
Matt Markins: Parents face toxic smoke of cultural stories that form children
How can you give us a reframe to forming faith, to being intentional? What actions should parents take? Thinking Okay, I need to be more intentional in this world. But where do I even start?
Matt Markins: My two sons are 23 and 21. And about six, months ago I was having breakfast. Thankfully, they still love me and I have a relationship with them. We eat breakfast on a regular basis. My 21 year old was out to breakfast with me and I was explaining to him about the smoking section. Like in the 70s and 80s, the restaurants had a smoking section. And I said to him, you know, there's really no such thing as a smoking section because no matter where you are, that smoke drifts your direction. And as I said that, I just had this picture of what we're dealing with, with the toxic smoke of the cultural stories that form our children. There is no such thing as a smoking section. That smoke is going to drift our direction. And those stories that we are trying to protect our kids from hearing about how the world began and all of these things that are counterfeit, that smoke is going to drift our direction. So the question is, what do we do with it? We cannot completely, just like your parents couldn't protect you from that smoke in the restaurant in the 80s and 90s. That's how it is. Being a parent today, we cannot, especially in a screen culture. Even if our kids don't have screens, their friends do. They're going to hear the story. So I think a couple things. One thing, I think we can use the incongruence of today's stories to our gospel advantage. So in other words, you're sitting around the house or standing in the kitchen or in the SUV and your young person says something that you're like, that is so not right. Hey, instead of shying away from that, lean into it like, hey, let's talk about that. Let's play that out a little bit. What do you think about that? How do you think that will play out over the next 20 years if that were you? You know, get them to think about this counterfeit cultural narrative that's just been introduced into your home and really treat it as like ah, a subject you want to sit and play around with, but then hold it side by side with the gospel. What does the gospel tell us? We're created. We know where we fell, we know where sin came from. We know who the redeemer is. And we know how one day he's going to restore all things to perfection. That story, creation, fall, redemption, restoration is the story of reality. It's a story of the Bible. And it resonates inside our hearts. Hold that story side by side with that smoke that has just drifted into your home and let children see the difference.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is really good advice. And I think we really need to emphasize that the culture is not neutral. And in both those cases of parenting strategies, which, if I'm really honest, Matt, I have drifted from one to the other, thinking, okay, I'm gonna fight all the fights, and, okay, I can't fight. I'm tired. But I have found such hope in setting intention and just in creating, saying, okay, all right. I acknowledge that the smoke is gonna drift in our direction, that the culture is not neutral. It is going to influence our kids. But I also find hope in knowing that there are ways, relationships with them so they'll still go out with me when I'm 20, when they're 21. I actually just had lunch, with my college age, at breakfast brunch, I guess you could say, because, you know, it's college time, right? Like, not too early, but not too late before class. And just sitting there, what a gift. And having those relationships. I'm convinced that in the context of a healthy relationship, where the family is doing everything they can to pursue God, I'm convinced there is no challenge that they cannot face together. And yes, in this world, we're going to have trouble, but we can take heart, we can be of good cheer because God has already overcome the world and we know how the story ends. We've just got to fight the good fight and run our race in the interim. We'll be right back with more from Matt Markins on forming faith. You really, if you are a parent, if you are a ministry leader, you really need this insight here. Discipling the next generation in a post Christian culture requires acknowledging the reality of where we are, but also embracing the hope of where we are going. I have a lot more questions, a lot more to talk about. We'll be right back. Coming to you live from the National Religious Broadcasters. See you right on the other side of this break.
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Goodbye Yesterday by Elevation Rhythm and Gracie Binion: Goodbye Yesterday I'm living in the. Light of a new day I won't waste another minute in my old ways. Praise the Lord I've been born again Goodbye yesterday I'm living in the light. Of a new day I won't waste another minute in my old ways Praise. The Lord I've been born again.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back friends. That is Goodbye Yesterday by Elevation, Rhythm and Gracie Binion. And we are saying goodbye to yesterday because we are living in today's world. And if you are a parent, if you are a grandparent, if you are around any kids today, number one, you probably need a lingo dictionary to understand what they're even saying because each generation has its vernacular. But it seems like every generation gets a little more complicated. So if you have kids that are telling you skibidi or you're still trying to figure out six seven six seven Yeah, we really don't understand that either you're in the right place. But what we do understand is that kids desperately need caring adults to Step into their life to be intentional, to help them form a biblical worldview, to help form their faith. We've been talking about how culture is not neutral and disengagement is not an option. If we have a hands off approach, culture is going to step into that vacuum. We have information streaming 247 and maybe you're thinking my kids aren't on phones, they're not on screens. Well, unless you are living out in a, in the national park with no cell service and interacting with no one else. Well then you wouldn't be getting this radio program. Kids are being exposed to other kids who have wildly different levels of exposure to media messages. And we need to be at the forefront of that.
Dr. Jessica Peck: We need spiritual formation
I'm here today with the CEO of Awana, Matt Markins. He's written a book with two others, Mike Handler and Sam Luce called Forming Faith, Discipling the Next Generation in a Post Christian Culture. And that's what we' talking about. So Matt, we have established formation is the goal. We need spiritual formation. And then that makes the next question very pressing but also really practical. Where does this formation happen? Where does the faith take root? So let's move it from, yes, theoretically we all agree we want our kids to have a biblical worldview. Where does that happen?
Matt Markins: Yeah, well, let's first define what it is and then we'll also talk about God's two agents of formation, the church and the home.
There are three factors that tend to form faith of a child
So first I mentioned earlier that kind of that macro question, what is it the chur does that tends to form lasting faith? through our own research, which includes the reading of the Gospels, quantitative and qualitative research, and then compiling others research, we put all that together and we discovered that there are three primary factors when they're all together that tend to form the faith of a child. And we call those belong. Believe, become, belong is highly relational. Believe is deeply scriptural and become is truly experiential. So let's unpack those real quick. Relational, that's making sure that your child, a child in your church is in a highly relational environment that they go from known to named to notice to name to known. In other words, we have a plan to connect with their heart, to go deeper in relationship with them. That child knows whether it's at church or at home or someone who knows me, cares for me, wants to walk along life beside me and engage me. So that's belong number two or believe that's deeply scriptural, that's making sure your children hear the Bible being read. They see you holding a Physical Bible, not a screen. They, they have the Bible taught to them, they memorize the Bible, they sing the Bible, they understand the biblical narrative. So that's a rich biblical environment at church or, and, or at home. And then thirdly, become. That's experiential. Everything's right now we're having experience, we're talking to each other, that's a real experience. When a child is bullied at school, that's a real experience. When a child has a major milestone in their life, they're experiencing something. So how do we help them to live out their life experiential? By, by following Jesus and living out the spiritual disciplines. But when you put all those three together, belong, believe, become relational, scripture engagement and experiences, that's the pathway to form childhood faith that becomes lasting faith in.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Jesus and a biblical worldview. I'll remind our listeners that we've had a series in the last year called Worldview Wednesdays where we've talked with Josh Mulvihill and unpacked. Exactly what does it mean? Matt and I were just talking in the break how most Christian parents say yes, I want my kids to have a biblical worldview. But if you sat down and took a pop quiz on maybe it would be more difficult than you think. This is where the intention comes in. This is where you have got to change your priorities. And for overwhelmed parents, Matt, we, we look, we live in a world where we are given so many messages as parents and they're all fear based messages like if you don't set your kid up for success in school, then you know, fill in the blanks. If your kid doesn't succeed in sports, then these opportunities are not going to be there. And we're, we say that biblical worldview is our priority, but honestly, if we open up our credit card statement, we open up our calendar, those two accountability checks are going to give us a very different story and saying yeah, that's important, but here's how many hours you spend at sports practice, here's how many hours you spent in spiritual formation. Now this is not intended to be a guilt trip because I am right there with you. But we're going to talk about two places that kids are discipled. The primary place is the home. What does that look like on a practical basis for families who are saying, all right, I don't know if I can do family dinner with, you know, a worship band coming in and singing Kumbaya and a three hour devotional like what does that look like?
Matt Markins: So what if we do three things let's talk about no one's ever shown me how. Let's talk about the culture of the average home and let's talk about practical examples. But the first one, many parents say, you know, the reason I don't disciple my own kids is because I'm insecure. And when we ask, well, why are you insecure? They often say, well, no one's ever shown me how to do it. So at your work, you've probably been given some kind of training. You know, if you're working in a factory, you know how to do the mechanics of the job. If you're working, working in a white collar job, you've been trained on how to do your work. Well, many parents say, I would love to pastor, but tell me, when is the last time someone sat down with me at a table and modeled for me how to disciple my kids? That hasn't happened. So, church leaders, our message to you is build into your church. Churches have baptism classes, new salvation convert classes, or new believers classes. We don't typically have a how to disciple your parents, how to disciple your child class. Why not? Like we need to have those. If what we're looking for from our congregants is that the parents who disciple their own kids, we need to equip them. So that's the first thing. The second thing is the culture of the American home. What happens is we hand parents a resource, church leaders hand parents a resource, and that resource finds its way to the minivan floor.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Why with the goldfish?
Matt Markins: With the goldfish? Again, the parents haven't been shown how. So the parents typically have, have, don't have a culture of discipleship at home. We have a culture of achievement. We have a culture of travel, sports. We have a culture of, you know, all kind. We, perhaps we have a screen culture in our own house, but we don't have a formational biblical child discipleship or discipleship culture. So we need to ask parents, by the way, in the back of the book Forming Faith, we get into that pathway, there's four spheres. We don't have time to unpack all of them, but there's four areas that parents can work on to form, a culture of discipleship in our own home. But it starts with vision. That's the first of the four. In other words, if I'm a parent and I have a two year old, I should ask, let's say his name is Trevor. I should ask myself, what is my vision for Trevor for when he's 37, what do I hope for him, well, I might hope that he has a good job, has a family, a good career, that he's happy. But if as a parent, part of that vision isn't that he's thriving in his face with faith Jesus, and he's a member of a church and a community, if that's not part of the vision, then I have to cultivate that vision for my child that they would love Jesus for the rest of their lives. So if we can get parents to first have a vision that their child would be a Christ follower in their adulthood, that can help, us establish the target or the destination that we're aiming for. But thirdly, practical examples, let's say, okay, I have a vision. I want to disciple my child. But, boy, we're having trouble just getting Bradley to even talk right? So, be a student of Brad. Ask yourself what makes him talk with our son, Warren. We realized when Warren went on walks, he became a chatterbug. It's something about the motion and getting his body moving. so my wife has also said some of her friends who have daughters, when they get facials and their nails.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Done and their hair done, I can attest that's true.
Matt Markins: The daughter start talking. So learn. There's all sorts of practical things that we can do to get dialogue happening in the home. And through that dialogue, guess what? We can start to talk about our faith. You can say as a dad or a mom, hey, have I ever tell you about the time that I messed up and sinned really badly and I faced the consequences, but God forgave me? And I want to tell you the story because it's going to happen to you at some point, and you need to know how you're going to get through that. So talking, through dialogue, we can really have the opportunity to disciple our kids.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You just said my two favorite words together in the history of ever but God. And thank goodness for that. Thank the Lord for that. And you know, Matt, I've worked in a newborn nursery for more than actually, I'm just going to say it. Almost 30 years I've worked in a newborn nursery. And I cannot tell you how many times I have handed parents their little precious baby for the very first time. And the look of panic on their faces, like, you expect me to take this home, like, with no supervision. And I remember one dad telling me I had to go through more training for a job as a grocery store janitor than I've had for this. But here you've provided training in this book, so no excuse you could pick up the book and get some training.
Matt Markins: Yeah, we had a great nurse when our oldest was born. But she said the rudest thing when it was time. She said, it's time to go home now.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, I apologize on behalf of my profession.
Matt Markins: We felt the same way. But I tell you what, that same day, we got baby Warren home. I'm standing in the kitchen, I'm looking out the window and I see my wife outside with our three day old child. And she's doing something with him near a tree. I was very curious. I sneak up behind them and I hear her saying, hey, Warren, do you feel this leaf? And she was taking this pudgy hand and just running it over the leaf. She said, when the rain comes, it goes into the ground. The root systems pull it up. And she was saying, just like God made this tree, God made you. And I said to her, he cannot understand you. And she said, he can't understand me now, but if I talk to him as if he can, the days will turn in the way weeks, weeks will turn the months and months will turn the years. And he won't stop talking. That's exactly what's happened. Both. Neither one of our boys will shut up. But what's the story that I'm telling? Deuteronomy 6 says, these words that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Talk about them when you sit at home, when you walk along the road, when you lie down, and when you get. What's the point? To get real practical talk with your kids from the time they're infants. Just develop a culture of, of dialogue, two way conversation between you and them. Even when they can't understand you. Just keep started and you will cultivate a home where when your child is 14, they actually want to talk to you. Right? So if you've missed that window of opportunity, be a student of them. To figure out how to get them talking. Maybe you need to repent to them of not building the heart connection you should have had. It'll be worth it, by the way, to walk that difficult road. But if you have them early and you have the opportunity, start with dialogue. Because if you can talk to them about violin or sports or Mr. Beast or whatever, if you can talk about these things, that gives you the infrastructure to disciple them.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It absolutely does. And I have found great conversation in walking along the road. I think sometimes we imagine in our homes that it has to be this really structured experience. I used to feel that way about Advent, like everyone has to sit down and it has to be beautiful and we have to have the candles, but it's really just walking along the road. And I rem Matt one time when I was walking with my teenagers and we were out walking in the neighborhood and we were having a very intense spiritual discussion. It was fantastic. I mean, we were really like just wrestling out the, the hardest things in life. And I remember this couple kind of walking by us and they kind of did a double take and then looked back around and then kept looking. And we looked at them and they said, that's an intense conversation for a walk. And that's when we realized, oh, perhaps most people do not, you know, walk around where people, are taking their dogs for a walk and talk about the mysteries of life and where are we going when we die, guess what we do. And you have to be comfortable, I think, being that family and starting somewhere. And I had a rough start with that as a mom, Matt. It took me a long time to figure that out. But it just, you have to start somewhere. And when it's awkward and you don't get that immediate feedback, you don't get the, oh, wow, mother, I see you trying to really work on my spiritual formation. I am deeply appreciative of your efforts. It really meant a lot. That is not going to happen.
Matt Markins: No.
Dr. Jessica Peck: They're going to roll their ey and be like, dad, stop. But you got to push through.
Matt Markins: You got to lead. And what's going to happen is one of your friends will get all the credit because your friend, your, your friend Barbara will say the same thing. And your daughter will come home and tell you the epic things that she said. And you're thinking to yourself, I said that to you 17 times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jessica Peck: But then that's when you just realize that God used you to plant the seeds and you're in it for the long game. And it doesn't matter who is there for that revelation. What matters is their spiritual formation. Well, Matt Let's talk about the church because the primary spiritual formation should happen in the home. So parents really need to be intentional about figuring out what are they going to do. But they also need to find a Bible believing church. And that can be tougher than it sounds. And so what is the importance of the church? What does that faith forming church look like?
Matt Markins: Well, we. There's this common message in children's ministry that, the church only has kids for about 40 hours a year or one hour a week or whatever it might be. There's of all kinds, sorts of statistics that Fly around. And part of the point of using that within the children's ministry, church leadership, community has been to say, hey, we don't have them enough. Parents need to disciple their kids. Which is, it's mathematically true, it's theologically true. But I feel like we've almost swung that so far to one direction that we, we have, really abdicated ourselves of the responsibility of that one hour a week that we might have or however often the kids are in church on a monthly basis. My point is moments matter. If you have a child once a month or four weeks a month, every moment you have with them matters. Think about. There are probably moments in your life where I said, talk to me about something that happened in a moment that changed your life or was a big stone of remembrance, so to speak. Well, we never know when those moments are going to be. So we need to have a highly relational community, connect with children when we have that opportunity, teach them the gospel, love them, disciple them, them when we have them. And those moments add up over time. So you look for a Bible believing church. Look for a church that not only wants to put on a good program, but wants to teach children the Bible the way the Bible's intended to be taught. That's what we're looking for as a partner, for us as parents to partner with that kind of a church that sees kids and wants to disciple them. That's what we're looking for.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, my producer here, she was a longtime children's minister and she told me something that really stuck with me. She said, said is she would watch parents come and pick up their kids, you know, thousands and thousands. It's over a long time. The primary question that parents ask when they come to pick up their kids is, did you have fun? Now, it's not a bad question to ask. And we want our kids to have fun because we can get into the science of that. Fun actually enhances learning, but it really is sending a powerful message to what we're expecting our kids to get when they go. Our kids are hardwired to try to meet our expectations, especially when they're young like that. And so they think, okay, I'm here, I didn't have fun. Fun. I don't want to go back. And so asking questions like, did you feel loved? Did you feel supported? Did you feel connected? What did you learn? That's really what we want them to get. And those messages, just like you were talking about from the very beginning, they add up over time.
Matt Markins: Yep.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, listen, we'll be right back. And we are going to contrast. We're going to make a contrast between Mr. Rogers and Walt Disney. Yep. You're not going to want to miss that. Come on, all you Gen Xers out there who love Mr. Rogers like I do, come on back. We're going to talk about it, as is talked about in this book, Forming Faith, Discipling the Next Generation in a Post Christian Culture. Matt Markins, Mike Handler and Sam Luce And we'll be right back with Matt Markins here from the national Religious Broadcasters See you on the other side of this break.
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Jesus Over Everything by Andrew Holt and The Belonging Company: Jesus over everything. He reigns forever more. Our song for all eternity Jesus Christ is Lord.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Jesus Over Everything by Andrew Holt and the Belonging Company. And that's what we're really talking about today is Jesus over everything. And in this world there are so many things that pull for our time, for our attention, for our resources, for our heart direction. And we can be so well intentioned as Christian parents, as grandparents, as teachers, as coaches, as anyone invested in the lives of the generations who are growing up. We're talking about Gen Z, we're talking about Gen Alpha. We're talking about the generation baby being born even after that as we speak, the generation to be named, we want to invest in them. We want to have a biblical worldview. We want to fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. We want to have all of those good intentions. But so often culture gets in the way and those really real things like, oh yeah, we have to have a roof over our head and we have to put food on our table and people have to have, you know, go to school and all of these things, it is really difficult. But we are coming to you today with a really encouraging message to about forming faith. We're talking about the book written by Matt Markins, Mike Handler and Sam Luce Forming Faith Discipling the Next Generation in a Post Christian Culture. If you're a parent, a grandparent, a teacher, a coach, a ministry leader, especially a Ministry leader. You need this vision and this encouragement, this tool in your hands. And we're talking about, how do we bring this home? And I promised Matt that we were going to do this contrast. So let's. You draw a contrast in the book, which I think is great. The, Gen Xer in all here for the contrast between Mr. Rogers and Walt Disney. But before I ask you to dive in, I'll share with you what I shared during the break. I'll share with our listeners. I love Mr. Rogers like, I love watching it. I love watching him put on his sweater. I love watching him explain how crayons are made. I loved all of the puppets. And one day, it was actually during COVID I thought, you know what? We need something really, you know, just that's gonna feel like a balm to your soul. You know, my kids did make fun of me. I did use those words, and they made fun of me. I put on Mr. Rogers, and they watched, and they were really co. Quiet, and they looked over at me and they said, mom, that's the creepiest thing we've ever seen. What are those puppets? Is he doing the voices? This is weird, but, you know, it's. It's an artifact for its time. But you contrast that with Disney, which the message is essentially, follow your heart. And we know that scripture says, well, your heart's wicked above all things. Who can understand it? So tell us about this contrast that you have and how it can be instructive for us.
Matt Markins: Well, as Sam points out in the book, Walt Disney built a fantasy land, but, Fred Rogers lived in a neighborhood. And so what are the motivations between these two ecosystems? Well, the motivation of Fantasyland is escapism. Like, let's build a simulation world where we can all go and forget about our troubles for a while. And that has its place, but that won't help you form a resiliency to get through your lifetime. Fred Rogers had a neighborhood. He. He went into the neighborhood. He really used, conversation and dialogue to really bring some really interesting topics into our day at that time in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, that children really needed because children were in the middle of all these situations. But what did he do in that process? He looked straight in the camera. He talked with a gentle, kind voice, and he loved those children, and he spoke truth, and he connected with them, relate. So really, that's kind of our analysis of the children's ministry in America. We've sort of doubled and quadrupled down on entertainment, in the absence of relationships. So what does your children's ministry at your church need? You need an environment where children feel like they belong. They're, they're seen, they're noticed, they're named, they're known. Your leaders and volunteers can track with them from week to week, can connect with them. Them, can, can really kind of journey through life with them. So when they, when they're, when they come to that leader and say, guess what, my parents are splitting, or hey, I won my basketball tournament, or what, Whether it's the ups or the downs to have the church be able to walk beside them and connect with them relationally, it, in addition to the fun, like you said earlier, fun unlocks sorts of things inside the brain and the imagination, the chemicals in the body. Fun is great, but the question is, how many, what logs are we using to stoke that fun fire? Sometimes we've overloaded on like sugar high type stuff in children's ministry that's not producing lasting faith. Especially when you, when you, combine that with the Bible light strategy, it's a recipe for, for not forming children to be disciples. So we love fun, but we want to put more emphasis on relationship as we disciple our kids.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, you're right. Entertainment. Entertainment sells. And entertainment is priority. It is expected. And we even see modifications now of this word. There's not only entertainment, there's infotainment. Exactly. Yes. You and I are tracking the same way. And these are marketable commodities. And they wouldn't be marketable if there was no demand. But the, the funny thing is, is that the demand is coming from the adults who are planning these experiences. Whereas really what kids want more than anything is that connection. And we live in a world that's going at the speed of a smartphone. And there is something radically different about someone sitting down at the pace of Fred Rogers sitting down. Like, I have nowhere else to be. I got nothing else to do. I am just here for you. And even looking at the camera, this is something that I've been talking about a lot and learning about is a phenomenon called. Okay, you're gonna have to listen closely. It's called phubbing. It's P h u b b I n g. It's new to me. This is new to you. I'm teaching you something.
Matt Markins: Okay.
Dr. Jessica Peck: All right. It's called phubbing. P H u B B I n G. Phone snubbing. It's called phone snubbing. It is something quantifiable that we have in research tools that we can measure this, how much someone is engaging in this Fubbing behavior because it actually impacts digestion, it impacts concentration. One of the number one things that it does when parents are engaging and looking at their phones and not their kids, it automatically increases feelings of disrespect. Oh yeah, they start to disrespect you. So we have got to look in their eyes. And when you look in someone's eyes for at least 20 seconds, it releases oxytocin, which is a bonding chemical in your brain. Unlocks, learning, unlocks relationships. God has given us these, these ways that we're hardwired for connection, but we keep trying to override them with technology and culture. We gotta resist that. But it's hard. It's hard. Matt?
One is fun and one is engagement. We need to think about what's our strategy for engaging kids
Matt Markins: Yeah. I think there's two key words I would articulate the difference between one is fun and one is engagement. So fun. Again, as we've. I think we've done a good job. Hopefully we have saying fun is important, fun has its. But we, we use the visual image of a. If fun is a fire and it's an important fire, it needs certain logs to fuel. Fuel. Kids everywhere are having fun around the world and we need to be putting logs in that fire. But the question is what logs are we putting in there and how many? That, that's how we should think about fun. But secondly, I think even better than fun, there's a better word for a church leader and a parent, which is engagement. What was, what was Fred Rogers doing? He was engaging that child through, through the lens, through the screen of that tv, by the content, by the way he connected the tone, the way, words, etc. Etc. So we need to be thinking about fun as important. But fun is one of the ways that we, what, one of the ways we engage kids. Engagement is the more important thing. It's the lasting thing, it's the enduring thing. We need to think about what's our strategy for engaging kids. And fun is simply one of those ways.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's exactly right. It's like the vehicle that's going to take you to the destination, but it's not the destination itself. And that can be. That's a really tough thing because of the way that culture is shaping kids expectations. And that's where we come in and we can help shape their expectations. But when I see kids who are wanting that connection, you know who I see really stepping in to fill the gap as grandparents and there's this disconnect in messaging because there's the, the culture says, hey, older people, they cannot possibly understand what we're going through. They don't know what it's like to live in today's world, but the fact is they do. They may not know exactly what it's like to experience technology, but they know what it's like to experience heartache, to experience bankruptcy, to experience loneliness. All of those emotions and the core sin issues that run from the beginning of time. And they have something that parents don't. They have time to engage with their kids and, and we see Gen Z really wanting to have deep, meaningful conversations. But parents who maybe just don't have time, or maybe just that, you know, you don't get that immediate feedback that feel good, like, oh, I tried that, didn't feel good. I'll just stay disengaged. How do we resist that?
Matt Markins: Well, you know, grandparents can do a great job of telling stories. Many times parents like, it could be the pace that keeps them from connecting to their kids like they need to, or it could be pride, or we're just insecure. We don't know how to model some of the most important things in the world for our kids. One of those most important things, is forgiveness, repentance, humility. In other words, your kids are going to face failure, they're going to face the need for forgiveness. Hopefully they're learning it from you, but many times they'll learn it from the grandparents. They might have a grandfather or a grandmother that tells a story about like, oh my goodness, I cannot believe my grandmother was a fill in the blank. Or that my grandfather, grandfather did fill in the blank. My grandfather used to, back in the early 1900s, would hop train cars and steal coal. Like, like these are things your parents are never going to tell you, but your grandparents might tell you. Right? So that gives an opportunity to introduce interesting themes like what do we do about sin, what do we do about failure? What do we do about repentance? And so that broader community of the family, aunts and uncles, parents, we can, they can help, help come alongside of these kids and help give them fill in some of the gaps that maybe parents aren't giving or can't or can't. Or just need a little more inspiration.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah, that's right. So the primary spiritual formation should happen in the home. But as parents, I think we need to be really intentional about cultivating those people around us, inviting them to intentionally join us and telling grandparents, hey, this is what we're working on right now. I'd really appreciate it if you would. If you have stories that are related to this, if you have a word of encouragement that's related to this. Like, step alongside me and then tell your kids, kids, these are people you can trust. These are people who are walking the road of faith before you and they're going to help me.
Building a home team for each one of your kids is important
Matt Markins: You're getting into one of our four. We covered vision, one of the four areas of culture, building in the home. This is actually one of the second one, which is about building a home team for your child. So if you have three kids, every one of your moms and dad, every one of your three kids needs a home team of four or five people that's designed for each one of your kids. What do I mean by that? Like, let's, let's say, say, your daughter Emma. And Emma is more of an artist. Well, does she have four loving, caring, adult, Christian disciple making adults in her life who could have a positive influence over the course of her childhood and teen years? Now, you're not asking these people for a weekly commitment. You're saying to these four people, five people, hey, two or three times throughout the year, could you make an intentional connection with Emma? Maybe take her out for ice cream, maybe stop by the house, maybe. Maybe make sure when you see her at church you're really making meaningful connection. These are people who are helping you. You, moms, dad, you can do so much, but you cannot do it all. These people will help each one of your kids, to have a positive disciple making impression on their lives, to point them toward Jesus. So we call this building a home team for each one of your kids.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I am so in favor of that because I think in today's day and age, we tend to, to hide a little bit. We feel the pressures of perfectionism. We don't want people to know if there's cracks behind the scenes. We don't want people to know, oh, maybe we're not getting along so well. We feel that pressure. And then when our kids have a problem, research shows that almost 90% of us will go straight to the Internet and say, what should I do about this? Yeah, exactly. And that is real. I mean, if people think that is not real, that is absolutely real. What should I do about this? And, and those are tools that can be useful, but they cannot replace these relationships. What I say, Matt, I tell people to have five people on their team. I say, you need an intercessor, somebody who will pray for you, who you can just text at the drop of a hat and just say, pray for me. You need a counselor that may be professional, maybe lay, but somebody who's going to tell you the truth. Who is going to speak words of wisdom to you, not going to tell you what you want to hear. You also need somebody who is in the same boat. Like you said, Emma's an artist. She needs somebody who's an artist. Your, your kids are going through a divorce. You need somebody else who's walked that road. Whatever. Your kid has a chronic debilitating illness, they need somebody else like that. The fourth one is a ride or die. Just somebody who loves them, who for who they are, who is going to accept them faults and all. Who's going to say, like, you know, I probably shouldn't even say this on the radio, but like, where are we bearing the body? Like that kind of sentiment. And the last one is a healthcare provider. You need a healthcare provider who shares and honors your worldview, who is going to partner with you in that. Those are the five people that I say that you need to be intentional about cultivating.
You are the CEO of Awana, a global child discipleship organization
And you have a lot more resources, in here as well. One of the resources that you are the CEO of is Awana. That is the way that you engage kids. I would love to hear a little bit about that.
Matt Markins: Well, we are a global child discipleship organization. We're in 140 countries. And, what we do is we equip churches and we equip parents on how to disciple their kids. So some of our programs or ministries that we might be most well known for. The, first one is childdiscipleship.com. if you go to childdiscipleship.com right now as a parent or a church leader, you're going to get free resources to help you on a weekly basis. The site is updated every week with fresh information. Also, if your church has a Sunday school or a children's church on the weekend, we have a new program called Brite B R I T E. It's one of the fastest growing children's ministries in America. It's biblical based. And we're going to help teach your kids the Bible in a way that focuses on how to help them grow in their faith. And thirdly, we have the fastest growing program in Africa right now called the Africa Child in school initiative. For $650 or $54 a month, your church can put Awana in a public school in one of 16 countries in Africa. Africa. It's exploding in growth. People everywhere are giving to this and each school is about 600 to 800 kids on average. So for $650, you can change an entire community.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is amazing. And where do we go to do.
Matt Markins: That, go to awana.org/donate awana.org/donate you can put Awana in a public school in perpetuity for just $650 or $54 a month.
Dr. Jessica Peck: In a world full of bad news and doom scrolling, you can be a harbinger of hope. And I am so grateful to every single one of you who are listening. I know that because you're listening that you want to find hope and you want to share that hope with other people. And I pray that wherever you are and whatever you're doing, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you. And listen. I'll be right back here tomorrow coming to you again live from the national Religious Broadcasters. Thanks for joining us today. We'll see you tomorrow. We'd like to thank our sponsors including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR the views and.
Jeff Chamblee: Opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
