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Dr. Jessica Peck: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection. And the majority of the time, she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound 250 and say the keyword BABY or visit preborn.com/AFR hello,

 : and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show, prescribing Hope for healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner, and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there, friends, and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families and listen. We've got a big dose of hope today for all of the girls out there, all the ladies, the women. That's who this show is for today. It's for everyone to listen and be edified. But that's what we're going to be talking about today because we are living in a time with when many women and girls are quietly asking the same questions. They're thinking, who am I really? Why am I here? Does my life matter? Am I getting this right? This whatever I'm doing, this, this girlhood, this motherhood, whatever it is, is part of being a woman. Every day, we are bombarded with messages about what it means to be woman, how we should look, how we should lead, how we should mother, how or if we should work, what we should believe, or even whether faith still fits into modern life at all. And these messages do not just stay on our screens bombarding us through social media. They are following us home. They show up in our marriages when expectations just sometimes, if we're really honest, feel super heavy, or in parenting, when we wonder, are we failing our kids as moms, even though we're trying our very best? Sometimes it shows up in friendships when comparison creeps in, and even in church when women feel unsure, like there's a place for their questions, their gifts, their. Their stories. And over that time, that confusion doesn't just affect what we believe. It shapes how we see ourselves, and it impacts our relationship with God. Research from Barna Group confirms what many families are already feeling. It's a really interesting swinging pendulum because we've been talking a lot of time, a long time about men leaving the church, but we're starting to see women, especially younger women, stepping away from the church, not because they don't care about their faith, but they're just not sure where it fits in their lives. And many women are feeling, what is God's design for women? What is this? And it's not just a church attendance concern. It's not just a behavior, a philosophical, a theoretical argument. This is something that's impacting family health. Because when women are unsettled about who they are and what their worth is, it affects their emotional well being. If so, that affects relationships at home and then that affects the marriage and parenting and all of those things and the faith formation of the next generation. So today we are going to slow the conversation down and instead of asking, okay, what does culture say about being a woman? Because it honestly seems like it changes every day, we are asking a better, steadier, healthier question. What does God say? And our guest today to help us talk about that is Jen Oshman. She's a lifeway author, a Bible teacher, a missionary, a church planter's wife, and mom of four daughters. She has more than two decades of ministry experience across three continents. And she brings some theological depth for us today to, to help us with today's conversation. And she has a new seven session Bible study called Very Good that walks women through the whole story of Scripture, Genesis to Revelation, to rediscover God's good design for women and their essential role in his redemptive plan. Jen, I am so glad to have you on today. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jen Oshman: Oh, this is a joy. Thank you for having me. I'm excited about this conversation.

Dr. Jessica Peck: I am too. Well, let's just start a little bit about who you are. Tell us who you are, how you came to know the Lord, and how you're sitting across the microphone for me with this message today.

Jen Oshman: Yeah. So my husband and I are just about to celebrate 27 years of marriage. And we both are first generation Christians in our family. Neither of us were raised, in believing households. And so we have sort of stumbled our way through our faith as young adults who came to Christ. We have always been on the search, desperate for mentors and just help along the way. And now we've been walking with the Lord for a few decades and served, served him in Japan and the Czech Republic. And now we're back in Colorado, our home state. And yes, as you said, we had one daughter in the U.S. two more in Japan adopted a fourth while we were overseas. And we find ourselves back here with a church that we planted nine years ago. And I have the privilege of writing and speaking about these particular issues which you know, mama, four girls. And having been in women's ministry for a long time, I'm very passionate about this topic.

Dr. Jessica Peck: That will definitely do it. Having daughters really changed my perspective because, you know, I think one of the things about having daughters, Jen, is they ask the questions out loud that I'm just keeping inside my head that I'm just pondering and thinking about. And there's something about hearing. Hearing them ask these questions out loud, have the conversation that I'm having in my head that makes it seem more real. Have you had that experience, too?

Jen Oshman: Yes, absolutely. And like I said, having not been raised in the church, I had. I had these questions myself, so I was hungry to ask mentors. But then we lived. We were raising babies first in Japan. So I was also looking at, okay, what does culture say about girls versus what does the Bible say about girls? And then moving to Europe and then back to the US and so that question was always before me because I think as believers in a specific culture context, we tend to think, you know, whatever the church culture in that context does must be biblical. But that's not always true. You know, we have to sort of sometimes disentangle culture from the Bible. And so this question was just on the tip of my tongue and on the tip of their tongues every single day. And so we had to dig into God's word and find out what he had to say.

Dr. Jessica Peck: That's a really interesting perspective. I'm sure it's hard. I mean, Japan, Europe, the United States, those are all very different places. And very interesting to think about defining womanhood through the church culture, which is just interesting to think about. But when we think about contemporary culture, it is a culture that constantly is redefining what it means to be a woman. Even if we look at, through American culture, the standards of beauty change, the standards of, you know, what it. What it means for your behavior, whether you're reserved, whether you're free, all of these things. It is constantly changing. But Scripture really begins with a radically different message, one that speaks a, constant. A, constantness. I don't even know if that's a word, but a consistency, right. And message and what God is.

This Bible study goes all the way from Genesis to Revelation

So let's talk about this title first. Very good. Because it starts in the very beginning.

Jen Oshman: Yes, it does. Yeah. I really wanted to be intentional with this Bible study to have a look that was positive. You know, let's put on a positive lens. We know our God is good. And in the beginning, in Genesis and chapters one and two, it says that everything God Made was very good. And that includes Eve. And so I wanted to set that tone for seven weeks of acknowledging that God is good and his creation is good and females were created very good. And that's why I gave the study the topic. And so we see right there, even with the creation of Eve, that God said it was not good for Adam to be alone, that he needed someone to come alongside him to fulfill the calling and the commission that God gave humanity. Adam couldn't do it by himself. He needed a helper. He needed a woman to partner with him, to be fruitful and multiply, to cultivate culture, to, sub, you know, subdue creation. This is something that men and women are called to do together, side by side, in partnership, as we live out the image of God in us.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, the Bible study goes all the way from Genesis to Revelation. Of course, you know, a lot of us may be familiar where most, most believers are familiar with those passages in Genesis and talking about the creation, even though that is something that you could unpack, really for a lifetime and still not unpack all of the mysteries that are there. But this Bible study goes all the way from Genesis to Revelation. Walk us through that and tell us how you see God's design for women from the beginning, all the. To the end of the Bible.

Jen Oshman: Oh, boy. Yeah, I mean, I do actually spend a couple weeks camped out in Genesis because even though we know that story, there's so much that I think we miss. You know, we get really hung up on this word helper, because in our context, in our culture, that word is not. Doesn't have a. Carry, a positive connotation. But that Hebrew word for helper is one that's used of God repeatedly throughout the Old Testament when it says, God is my help or God is my shield, God is my strength. That is that word Ezer, that's used for helper when, ah, Genesis speaks of Eve. And so I think, you know, there's a lot of that we can just even uncover in that first book of the Bible that we're missing. And if we don't lay that foundation, then everything else we study is going to be a bit off because we're going to bring with it that negative feeling of helper. And we're going to bear that on these other passages as we go through. And so I want the reader, I want the Bible study woman to see from the very beginning. Actually, no, Eve is a strong and important ally and partner in the work that God has for us. Let's Apply that lens, to the rest of Scripture. So, yeah, as you say, it's a kind of a sprint through the scriptures. We look at different women in the Old Testament stories, and they are really diverse and complex and varied. And we look at the Old Testament law when it comes to women, which was really daunting, but ended up being really encouraging. We can unpack that a little bit more if you want. But, you know, an initial look at the law feels, I think feels for women in our age, kind of scary. Like, what is going on here? This doesn't sound right, but. But come to find out through some deep study, it was very encouraging. And I look at, lady wisdom in the Proverbs, and of course, Jesus and women is a really delightful time of study. Paul and women is complicated, but, actually ended up being very good also. And even women in Revelation, so we don't leave anything out. We dive in and go, okay, God, what are you really saying here?

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, I definitely want to dive into each one of those. Let's start with the beginning. In Genesis, you said that's foundational. It's really important that we have a good understanding of that foundational concept and then hold that up as a lens to look at the rest of the scripture. What do you think is the thing that women are most missing from that foundation? What is most important to understand? What. What are we not seeing that skewing, maybe how we look at the rest of the story?

Jen Oshman: You know, Eve. It's so interesting when you start to look at Eve. I have discovered that she is sort of like, present everywhere. I mean, there are mental health diagnoses that use the name Eve. There's concerts, there's brands, there's labels, There are, you know, websites, there's movements that use Eve's name. And I think she's everywhere and yet usually pretty misunderstood. You know, she's either like the hero or the problem. And, so I think we tend to look at Eve as, like, I'm not really sure. I'm not sure about this woman. And it colors how we see ourselves. It colors how we see the rest of scripture. but. But the truth is, when we sort of peel it all back and look at the beginning is we see that Eve was necessary. She was required for God's work to go forward. And she was honored by the Lord. The way that he made her was so careful and artistic and so beautiful. And when he presents her to Adam, he honors her and he rejoices. And God gives him this partnership to work Together. And so I think in culture and probably sometimes in the church, maybe due to a lack of understanding or a lack of extreme caution or even the cultural, air that we breathe, we have just a wrong understanding of Eve. And so I wanted to sort of re, you know, reassess that along with the reader so that she could see Eve is good and necessary.

Jen Oshman: Adam could not fulfill commission without his partner

Dr. Jessica Peck: That's really interesting to think about because honestly, like when you're thinking about conversations that happen in circles of women, if you talk about Eve, ultimately you're going to talk about the way that, you know, the curse, that word is going to be used frequently and, and it's not often a positive connotation because we talk about how she was tempted, she ate the apple. I mean all of these things that ah, are kind of the bad things. And you keep saying the words good and necessary. Can you unpack that? Because I've heard you say it several times and I feel like it's important. How was Eve good and necessary?

Jen Oshman: Well, like I said, first of all, Adam could not fulfill the commission that God gave humanity without his partner. And so we couldn't be doing, we couldn't do what God calls us to do in terms of culture and creation. If. But men and women aren't on partnership together. But not that. When the fall happens in Genesis chapter three, which is heartbreaking and tragic and changes everything, God says immediately to Eve that there will be the offspring of Satan will be defeated by the offspring of Eve. And so we see this beginning of this, this thread that's going to be carried through the scriptures of who are the offsprings of Eve? You know, who comes from her, who, who are the people of God? What is the lineage of God through the scriptures where ultimately her offspring is going to overcome the enemy. And of course we finally see that when Mary delivers Jesus and Jesus our Savior overcomes the work of the enemy. But I love that the, the very first mention of our rescue, the, the very first time God says, I'm going to reconcile you, I'm going to bring you back to myself. It's through this announcement that it's going to be through Eve bearing offspring down the lineage of women through the ages. And so seeing her, you know, shifting our mindset is like no women are required for God's grand story is really different than that lens that I think many of us have. That's like, well, women were created second, so we're kind of second best or we're kind of secondary, or we're kind of a Nice add on. That's just not biblical. That's just not true. The Lord said we need Eve on the scene. My will, my providence calls for a woman, woman to participate in my story. And so women aren't just invited. They're not just an afterthought, they're required.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, when we come back, we're going to talk about, as you hinted already, the requirements of the law, because that can be a place where things get really dicey, really quick and talking about it, but you're going to help us to straighten that out. And the truth is, when women are grounded and God's truth about who they are, it doesn't shrink their lives. It doesn't minimize them. It doesn't make them any less. As you said, Jen, it steadies them. It gives them confidence. And that stability is a gift that we can share with our families and the world. We'll be right back with more from Jen Oshman and the Bible study. Very good. We'll see you on the other side of this break.

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Big God by Terrian: with foes on my left and fears on my right they think that I'm, all by myself in this fight but they do not know the infinite size of the God who is by my side hey, under fire but my Goliaths standing in the shadow of the Almighty I ain't lying Testifying, man, I'm talking 'bout a Big God big God when trouble comes around the way only remedy for big odds is a big God Ain't nobody gonna shake my faith no, I'm not afraid Throw my hands up and praise for the times that he pulled me through I'm counting on a big God that they can't stop He's a big God.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Big God by Terrian And that's what we're talking about today. A big guy God with a big grand plan. The greatest story ever told. And we're talking about the role that women play in that story today.

Jen Oshman writes about women in the Old Testament and the law

I'm here with Lifeway author Jen Oshman. She's written a Bible study called Very Good. And as we look today about the way that culture is trying to define and redefine and redefine and redefine what it means to be a woman, we have women all over who are saying, okay, where is the truth? We have women who are searching for the truth. We have girls who are looking to the women and older generations to help them navigate all of these confusing cultural messages that are there. And is it culture off is offering very loud and powerful narratives about power and independence and beauty and success and what it means. And we see all of these confusing messages. We see the rise of trad wives, traditional wives. That is a whole movement on social media. And then we see criticism of that. The dialogue is really loud, but scripture offers something that is quieter but far more enduring. How do women belong in God's redemptive story? And, Jen, I have so many questions. I could honestly ask you questions probably all day about this, because this is something that we do hear about but don't often talk about. This is not something that usually comes up at the dinner table. And it can be kind of a contentious conversation. And one of those contentious topics that I see that you. You've already previewed for us is looking at women through the context of the Old Testament and the law. We've talked about women in Genesis. You walk us through women in the law, and you said, I heard you say that turned out to be encouraging. And I think that's hard for us. my pastor always says we're trying to look at an Eastern book with Western eyes and have all these cultural filters. What did you learn about women in the law? What is culture getting wrong about that today? And what can encourage us for. Encourage us for today?

Jen Oshman: Oh, man, your pastor is so right. And I love that phrase that he uses, because it's like we have to put on completely new goggles to read these passages. And that takes a lot of hard work when we really love to pull verses out of context and go, see, this is what I'm talking about. And it just warrants a lot more work than that. So a couple lenses that we have to put on when we look at the Old Testament law. One is that Israel was a communal culture. The ancient cultures were communal. We live in a fiercely independent, individualistic culture. So we're known by our first name. all of our movies are all about, you know, realizing the specific dream that I have. And you know, I'm going to leave behind my family and the old ways. I'm going to leave my town and I'm going to strike out on my own and I'm going to accomplish my dreams. Right? So we really prioritize individuality. Whereas many cultures, even in this age, but especially Israel, that's a communal culture where you're, where you're known by your family name and decisions are made as a family that you're, you're a unit that moves together through the world. Now secondly, it's a patricentric culture, meaning the father or the oldest brother is the head of the family. And that means a couple things. And what we see in the scriptures is that the head of the family is one who is responsible for his family. He's a representative who is responsible. This is not, a call to be authoritative or authoritarian or heavy handed, but it's a call to lead and to be responsible and to represent. So the head of the family goes to the religious, settings or to the sacrifices or to the worship places. The head of the family represents, the family in the legal sphere or out in the community, in the political sphere or as the, the village is making decisions together. That head is the representative for the good of the rest of the people. So those are two lenses that are hard for us because we're like, I don't want to be represented by anybody. I will speak for myself, thank you very much. But if we're looking back thousands of years, thousands of miles away, this design is not bad. It's just different than what we're used to. So that, that communal aspect and that patricentric aspect are both really important. Now I would love to have the wisdom to unpack all of the Old Testament law for you. Nobody has time for that and probably nobody wants to hear all that. But as a woman, I was particularly curious about the laws surrounding menstruation because when we read those, I think as women and we Talk about the, you know, they come up for our daughters at some point. If our daughters are reading through whole Bible, you read that women are expected to, It seems like we're kind of left out for the seven days of our period and the seven days after. There's an interesting law around it. And for me, first glance of reading that, I thought this feels like God's excluding women when we are on our periods, but he made us to have our periods. So this doesn't make sense to me what, what's going on here. But as I began to dive into culture, dive into the law and understand the context more, what I began to see is a couple things. Things. Blood is really important in Israel, right? They sacrifice. They make blood sacrifices and blood offerings is part of the law. So for them, the sight of blood, the, the appearance of blood, the existence of blood is really weighty. It really is important. The life is in the blood. Not only that, there's no urgent care, there's no emergency room. There's. There's an obvious, sort of weakness and tiredness that women experience through menstruation, through childbirth, after childbirth there. It would be evident in an ancient culture that bodies are fragile and that women need rest when they're undergoing these things. So what I began to see about the laws surrounding menstruation is that God was really protecting women. when a woman's on her period and for the seven days after, she gets her own bed and her own chair and the household comes around her and takes care of all of the chores. They take care of the child care, the cooking. She's represented in the religious sett weddings or out in town. She's given the opportunity to lay low and to rest and to recuperate. And so it's not that she's being excluded, it's that she's being provided for. And it makes perfect sense in their context. It's less easy to understand in our context, but I began to see God's heart for protecting women and children and making sure that they're provided for in these tender times. And it just opened my eyes to how, how the entire law, the heart behind the entire law law.

Dr. Jessica Peck: One of the things that I see Jen often discussed in and just media in general, I mean, I'm bombarded by these messages is looking at Old Testament law and seeing something along the lines of this. They'll. They'll pull out, you know, one specific law, like, much like you've unpacked one specific law for us, and they basically use it to say, do you really want to go literally by what the Bible says? Because look at this law, you know, in Deuteronomy and numbers, wherever it is that's about this woman. And do we really want to go back to that? How do you, how do you respond to that? What do you see being misinterpreted or missing the heart of that? How do we, how do we refrain from being confused by those kinds of messages?

Jen Oshman: Well, one of the beautiful things about being alive in this time, 2,000 years after the life of Jesus, as we can look back at Jesus and His Word and we see where he says in the Gospels, I did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. In other words, there's something in the law that is good that points to beautiful truths that are on God's heart. But Jesus came to fulfill the law, so we're no longer bound by it. We no longer have to be really careful about how we obey it. so as to be marked as God's people, to have that relationship and that reconciliation with God, but be Jesus as the ultimate blood sacrifice on our behalf. He reconciles us to the Father. So as we put our hope and our trust in him and his sacrifice and his gift of forgiveness, then he fulfills the law on our behalf. And it's actually really unfair and really unjust because Jesus pays the punishment that we deserve and then he gives us his righteousness. But we're no longer bound by the law, where we are now bound by love and gratitude to Jesus for doing that on our behalf. And so nobody's asking us to return to the Old Testament law because we who are in Christ, we who are on this side of Christ, life, death and resurrection and ascension back to heaven, we know he fulfilled it for us. It's such a gift of grace. There's just freedom here.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Jen, I feel like if somebody asked me that question again, I'm just going to walk around with a little clip of what you just said and play it and say, what she said. That's what I think, because you just articulated that so well. But that is definitely something that I see used as an argument particularly against younger generation, against teenage girls, like, and, and it can be really confusing to talk about that.

Bible study looks at women from the Old Testament looking at cultural context

And one of the things that you unpack in Bible study is some stories from women from the Old Testament looking at the cultural context in which they lived, looking at the way that God designed their lives to fit into the redemptive arc of his master plan for salvation and So I want to talk about. I want to call out some of those specific women. And the first one I want to ask you about is one that probably most women are very familiar with. I know this Bible story because, to be honest, when I was a little girl and I would sit in church and I would be bored by the pastor, I would turn, I would open my Bible and I would read this story, and that is the story of Esther. And there is just something. It's easy to read, it's a little easier to understand. It's much more narrative. But what do we learn from a woman like Esther, with all of those layers that you're talking about? Starting from Genesis, looking at the cultural perspective, what do we learn about, What does Esther teach us about God's plan for women? yeah.

Jen Oshman: Oh, my goodness. Esther. Esther, like all women in Scripture, is complicated. You can't read the story of Esther and go, okay, go be like Esther. Because, I mean, her story starts out right where she's, like, being beautified, and she's, like, in this beauty contest and goes in and sleeps with the king. And, you know, it's like. It's a. It's actually a really hard beginning to her story. It's tragic. We would not want her story for ourselves or any of our daughters. And what we actually see in Esther. And then, of course, she has her cousin, Mora Mordecai, who, is with her through this. What we. What the story of Esther actually tells us is that God is sovereign. God works through these really hard circumstances that even when it looked like, Esther was alone or Esther was forgotten, she was not. And the Lord met her, and he called her to be brave. He said, I've placed you here for this specific time and this specific place, which, by the way, is true of every single one of us. God ordains when and where we would live.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Live.

Jen Oshman: He gives us our abilities, our bodies, our every, You know, our education, even our limitation, our diagnoses, our. Our sicknesses. He gives us all these things that we might use them for his glory and the good of his people. And Esther boldly and courageously does this. And so what we see is God be. You know, God deliver Israel through Esther, who. Esther's in a hard spot. you know, you can't look at Esther and go, she's a perfect example of everything. We go, wow. She's weighing things out. Sometimes she feels like a hero. Sometimes she doesn't. But the Lord uses her life and uses her circumstances and delivers his people through her. And so I think what we find with Esther is she's complicated, as we all are. We're not just totally good or totally bad. Like we've got good days and bad days, but God is sovereign over each one of us and over each and every day.

Another bold and courageous woman that you talk about in Bible study is Deborah

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, another bold and courageous woman that you talk about in the Bible study is Deborah. And she may not be as well known as Esther, but a really intriguing story. So what did you learn about Deborah?

Jen Oshman: Yeah, so Deborah is a female judge. She leads Israel when there is so much that is going on in the world. It's a time of there's evil, things are not going well and Deborah steps up and God uses her as a leader. And it's really beautiful. and even with Deborah, Deborah's life there, JL Is in that story as well. I don't know if your listeners will know who JL is, but she's this woman who takes a tent peg and drives it through the head of an enemy and again delivers Israel. So we see the Lord use women like Deborah and JL and Esther, to lead his people and to, and to rescue them and to deliver them. and I think that's really incredible. And it's not to say look at the heroine, it's to say more. More like look at God, but also look at God's people and how he uses them. We're all unique. We are as diverse as God is creative. And he calls on each one of us to, to fulfill his story in different places and in different ways.

Jen Oshman: What do we learn about Mary as we move into the  New Testament?

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, those are women in the Old Testament. Probably the most well known woman in the Bible is Mary, of course, the mother of Jesus. And what, what do you learn about Mary as we move into the New Testament? You know, you've already drawn some contrast between Old Testament, New Testament and how the story changes, changes. What is what we need to know about Mary? What is misunderstood about her? But what do we, what do we need to know? Where does she fit in all of this conversation?

Jen Oshman: Yeah, Mary is just so remarkable to me. In fact, what I love in the early chapters of Luke is we see Elizabeth and then Mary and then Anna. These three women, you know, Elizabeth is old and barren. Mary is very young and a virgin, and then Anna's this prophetess who's in the temple. Just to say that they're, these women are diverse. They are in different ages and stages and God has asked different things of them. But when the gate, when Gabriel the angel comes to Mary and says, you're going to be pregnant because the Holy Spirit is going to come upon you and you're going to carry Jesus, and Jesus is actually going to sit on David's throne forever and ever. you know, that news is wild. And there's nothing in Mary's young life that would be able to make sense of it. But how she responds in Luke chapter two is with this song, where she, she begins to, respond in worship. She goes through this song where she recites some psalms and some events in the Old Testament, and she says, you know, Lord, I've seen your hand from generation to generation, the way that you have spoke to Abraham and our fathers, and, and our people after him. And so Mary, even though she's young, she knows the scriptures, she knows the stories of how God worked through his people. And so she knows even as a young girl that he is trustworthy, worthy, and that he has worked in miraculous ways in the past. So when Gabriel says he's going to work again and it's going to be through you, she's able to receive that and maybe not fully understand it. We know she's got questions, but she's able to say, yeah, you know, that, that actually checks out because I, I know that the Lord has been faithful to every generation and I am one more generation in his story, and so I trust him. May it be to me, as you

Dr. Jessica Peck: have said, one of the things that's encouraged to me, even in hearing you talk, Jen, and reading these stories myself, is learning about the character traits that these women possessed and being inspired by that, whether it was courage or boldness or fear. And like you said, these were very different women in very different circumstances, but they were all used in God's plan. And when women see themselves rightly in God's story, comparison is really quick to lose its grip. And anxiety loosens its hold, and our faith starts to become the lens with which we see everything. We'll be back with more on Very Good with Jen Oshman right after this break.

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Made For More by Bethel Music, Jenn Johnson, and Josh Baldwin : I wasn't made to be tending a grave I was called. Called by name. Born and raised Back to life again I was made for more? So why would I make a bed in my shame? When a fountain of grace is running my way? I know I am Yours And I was made for more? I know who I am? Cause I know who you are? The cross of salvation was only the start now I am chosen free and forgiven? I have a future and it's worth the living.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Made for More by Bethel Music and that's what we're talking about today. We're talking about specific about women. We're talking to women and talking about the design that God had for women. It is really tough today. it's tough on both sides. It is really tough. As a parent, I have sons, I have daughters. And navigating some of these messages. What does it mean to be a woman? What does it mean to be a man? These are questions that our kids are wrestling with. And the truth is we're wrestling with them as adults too. Trying to figure out all of these cultural messages that are so confusing that can come in waves, and trying to ask these hard questions. And let me tell you, it all goes back to the Word of God. It all goes back to the Bible, to that foundation that is a, timeless truth that has never changed. And while culture will change messages over time, and even in the same time, we can have women living in different cultures with radically different interpretations of what that looks like. There are foundational principles in the Word of God telling us about God's plan for women in his design. And we're talking today to, Lifeway author Jen Oshman, who's written a Bible study called Very Good, and that is at the heart of God's design for women. He called his creation Very Good, and that includes women. And Jen, you've been walking us through from Genesis to Revelation, kind of talking about the different lenses that we looked at. And we've talked about the foundational concepts that happened in Genesis. We've talked about some of those cultural concepts that were through the Old Testament and then working through the New Testament and how. How things change after the death and resurrection of Christ.

You talked about how Jesus interacted with women in your Bible study

And I want to start there because you talked about women and Jesus and I mean, honestly, like you said, we could talk about this forever because there, Jesus did have a lot of interactions with a lot of women. And there's a lot of, a lot of chatter, about that, I guess I could say. So how do we listen to how people are talking about that that not be confused, feel grounded in. And how Jesus interact, interacted with women and what that tells us about. About how he felt about women and what our pl. What are places in his plan.

Jen Oshman: I just loved doing the deep dive into Jesus's relationship with women, you know, especially after going through the Old Testament and like, oh, these stories are so heavy and complicated and trying to decipher them. Well, the stories between Jesus and women are pretty straightforward and therefore, they were just kind of a balm to my soul after weeks of hard work in the other stories. But what I love about seeing the way Jesus interacts with women, we can look at the. All of the stories and say Jesus was constantly moving toward women, which for a rabbi in his age was really countercultural. rabbis during Jesus's time would disciple men only. But we see that women are present at Jesus's birth. They're present throughout his ministry. In fact, In Luke chapter 8, verses 1 through 3, we see that women traveled with Jesus and his disciples and even supported their ministry from their own possessions. and then we see that women are so they're president his, his birth throughout his life and ministry. They're there at his death, they're there at his burial, and they're there at his resurrection. Actually the only demographic that's present at all of these important highlights in the life of our Lord. And so I just love to see how Jesus goes toward women, how he prioritized women, how he made space and invited women to learn from him, to be healed by Him. He embrace, embraced women. He received their embrace. Like we never see Jesus shrinking back from women. Like, oh no, what is she gonna do? Or I can't be seen with her, Or I'm embarrassed. He's never ashamed, he's never annoyed, he's never inconvenienced. Like he welcomes, and invites women. And not only that, but then we see he. He calls women to go, to be part of his kingdom. Moving forward. He commissions all of us to go and make disciples, women included. And so I think sometimes when things get confusing in cult, even in the church, just running to these stories can sort of recenter us and remind us of God's heart for women and inclusion of women and the necessity of women. these can be a really sort of recentering place for us to go.

Dr. Jessica Peck: And you're right. And then after, after you talked about Jesus interaction with women, which there were so many just personal interactions. The, the woman who had the problem with Bleeding. I think about the woman at the well. I mean, all of these, like, it's, it's so, it's so funny to me that when I think about those stories, we think of stories in terms of those titles. The woman, it's like the woman. And then a descriptor to talk about a descriptor of all of these women that, that Jesus interacted with. And especially, you know, the, the story of, of women being there at the resurrection, which is just. I always, I love that I, I would encourage you to pick up your Bible and go back and read that. If you're thinking, wait, what happened there? Go back and read it. It's so good. And you're right. Then we get to Paul and that's complicated and probably going to have day because we're going to need more time to unpack that. But let's, let's just skip to the end for right now and then hopefully people will pick up the Bible study and, and get more information.

Jen : How do we start talking about identity in the Bible?

But let's talk about Revelation because that is an unlikely place to talk about the presence of women. What do you see in the end?

Jen Oshman: Yeah, I mean, there, so there are a number of, you know, Revelation is its own, its own book in the Bible. Right. It is apocalyptic, it's prophetic. there are lots of lenses that we have to put on when we, to the book of Revelation. So I would do it a disservice to not say that, to do that deep work when you come to the book of Revelation. But what we see at the end is this woman who delivers a child and the dragon seeks to devour the child. And instead the dragon is thrown into the lake of fire. And this is kind of, this goes back to Genesis chapter three, when we look at the offspring of Eve and the offspring of the serpent. And it's sort of the gospel or the whole grand story of God told very quickly that a woman bore a child, the dragon sought to devour him, and instead the dragon was defeated. This is the truth. This is God's grand story. the child delivers us, the child rescues us. And that is Jesus. He is our Savior. And through him we have salvation. And that's what we see from Genesis to Revelation is the story of the offspring of Eve, the store, God's grand story through the generations, and that ultimately we are delivered by his son. And it's a precious gift and one that I want to keep telling, to the end of my day.

Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, when we look at Bible studies, when I see Bible studies that are available to me as a woman. Studies that I've been a part of or that I've promoted. Many of them are either a book of the Bible or they're topical in nature. Specific topic that, you know, women are dealing with, a specific struggle. And you look at that and you spend time with that, and there's nothing wrong with either one of those, for sure. What I see different in your Bible study, Jen, is that it's really more about ideas, identity, it's more formational. And when I look at today's world, especially as a pediatric nurse practitioner, as a mom of young people, they. There's an identity crisis that is going on in this world. And so many competing messages about who people are, who women are, specifically as we're talking about this today. And I see the world pulling those cultural messages because they're motivated by marketing. They want to create an identity crisis so they, they can, they can, market a product to fix that. And the, the lens through which we look at ourselves through scripture is so radically different. And you're a mom of four. How do you initiate these conversations about identity? Because it's not as easy, it's not as cut and dried as the topical approach, the, you know, book by book approach. These are, these are issues that are at the core of who we are. But how do we start talking about, about this?

Jen Oshman: I love this question. Well, I think that we are given many, many opportunities if we have ears to hear and eyes to see. I, and I would love to hear. You know, I'm sure you feel the same way and would love to hear your response to that as well. But I think one of the things that I learned as a mom of girls in particular, because I don't have any sons, but one thing that I learned was how important it was to ask questions when one of my daughters said something. You know, when something came up, literally anything. You know, I've got this test tomorrow I'm worried about, or this is going on my friend group, or we're homecoming dress shopping, or we're worried about the tryout. I mean, just so many things asking questions, and sometimes I don't know what to ask, so I just say, tell me more about that or what do you mean about that? Or why do you like that? Or what, what rubs you the wrong way about that? And just being very curious first and foremost, because I think sometimes we apply our insecurities or our fears about our children to some of the things they say and we assume, you know, they've run from A to Z already. And probably they haven't. And probably they're motivated by or feeling things that we don't even know. We've just assumed them because we're feeling something ourselves. And so the first thing that I feel like is really essential is to be a curious parent and to say, tell me more about that. Unpack that for me. And then the second thing I would say that was kind of a staple for me as I was raising my daughters was to be constantly reminding them that they are already approved of in Christ Jesus, that the Lord looks on them already with delight and approval and that there's nothing that they can do to lose his love or to earn more love, that they are already. They are secure in God, that making the grade or making the team, M or making the audition, or handling things the right way is not what makes them secure in Christ. It's Christ's death and resurrection on their behalf that secures them firmly in the hands of their heavenly Father. And so I just. I always wanted to remind them. I would pray for them every morning on the way to school and just remind them through prayer that it's not their performance that drives their identity. It is their Father who made them and their Savior who died for them. And nothing can change, change that.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Jen, you know, speaking mom to mom here, it is really hard to do that. And I find myself, and I know other moms find themselves pulled when, when our kids come home and they have a problem, we go into fix it mode. We go into, okay, how can I exert some control over these circumstances? Whether it's you making the team or making it into this friend group or whatever it is, how can I fix that so that, you know, you will feel supported? I don't want my child to feel any pain. And, and we kind of almost give our. Ourselves this, this self test. Like, okay, did we handle that well? Like, was I good armchair therapist here? Like, did I ask the right questions and do they have an immediate return, giving us the immediate gratification that, yes, we did indeed solve their problem. We provided good customer service in our home. And that may sound overly simple, but I do feel like a lot of times in Western culture, that is. That is our first impulse as moms. And you talked about it at the beginning, Jen, how we have this individualistic culture and we want to help our kids to achieve their dreams, to, you know, fly as far as they can, to get what they want, to make goals and earn it. And, and those things are not inherently wrong. And, please don't hear me say that. But it sounds so simple, and yet it's so hard to redirect ourselves to say, oh, okay, yeah, those things are good. Those things can be supportive. Those things can be helpful when done in a healthy context in appropriate ways. But how do we really re anchor ourselves to make sure that that's the question that they're answering? Okay, all right, I'm gonna help you with what you do, but do you know who you are? How do we continue on our own journey as moms, as grandmothers, as older women mentoring younger women? How do we reflect, frame that?

Jen Oshman: I think, first of all, we have to be secure in Christ ourselves.

As moms, we have to preach the gospel to ourselves all the time

Like, we have to be preaching the gospel to ourselves. Because so often what we do is go, okay, if my kids are successful or happy or healthy, then I'm a good mom. And that is not true. These children are made by God and for God, and they have. You know, I had a friend once say, you cannot write your child's testimony like the Lord is going to reach them the way he's going to reach them. And oftentimes that's going to be the way he reached us, which is through pain and sin, suffering. So often, not always, but often, it's when we go through loss or grief or hardship that we cry out to God, and we have nothing to offer, and he rescues us, and he loves us, and he. He cares for us. And so I think as moms, we have to be, reminding and rehearsing the gospel to ourselves all the time. My identity is not in my child's performance, or my identity is not in how my child views me. My identity is, I'm safe and secure in the arms of my father, and there's nothing I can do to change that. And then we're, as we rehearse that to ourselves, we rehearse that to children. You know, there is no formula for this. God is going to do what he's going to do. And sometimes, things are not going to go the way that we thought they would. But that's okay that the Lord is still trustworthy. Like, will we trust him even when it's hard? And so, you know, as a mom on this side of it, My youngest is now 18, which does not mean I'm not. I'm finished. I'm not. But I can look back to 18 years of just quiet abiding in the Lord, rehearsing of the Gospel, and so see that it's true. More is caught than taught. And so moms and dads as we remain quietly secure and safe, as you know, we don't freak out. We don't join the anxiety chaos. We, we remain calm and point ourselves and our loved ones to the Lord. They catch that security. They feel that peace, they feel that stability. And I can see the proverbial truths in that now that as as I've laid that before them, that has shaped my kids by God's grace. And they now have some of that calm too.

Dr. Jessica Peck: I love it. And we're already at the end of our time together. Listen, the Bible study is very good and I hope that you will talk with the women in your life about God's design for them as very good. And as you do, I pray the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you. And I'll see you right back here next time.

Dr. Jessica Peck: we'd like to thank our sponsors, including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies' lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR the views and

Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.