Transcript

American Family Radio thanks sponsor, Preborn for supporting pro life advocacy

Dr. Jessica Peck: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection and the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound 250 and say the keyword BABY or visit preborn.com/AFR hello

 : and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing Hope for healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. And listen, today is going to be such an incredible blessing to you. I cannot even describe it. Every once in a while there is a special set of circumstances that God aligns. And for me to sit behind this microphone now here in my third year of this show, which I cannot believe, and to be able to meet some of the people who have been instrumental in the soundtrack of my faith are gifts I believe that God has given to share and to see and to day is one of those days. I am so excited about the guests that we are going to have today. And I know you're wondering who in the world could it be. But I'm going to build out the suspense for a little longer. Let me tell you, for those of you who maybe are relatively new, haven't heard me share a lot of my story. I came from a family of faith and for that I am so very grateful. I was always in church every time the doors were open. I was exposed to the gospel from a very early age. I accepted Christ at the age of 12 and have been walking with the Lord faithfully ever since. I never really had any moments in my life of great rebellion, great doubt, but I have had very significant paths of trauma and trial and things that I've been through that are really hard. I come from generational brokenness where addiction and struggles with, with that run through my family. And there were definitely branches of the family tree where that addiction, that brokenness was not present. But as we're learning more about trauma and healthy relationships and even how God has made us so intricately that the way that we experience those things rewires our brain, rewires our DNA, so that we pass that on from generation to generation. There were a lot of really faithful people in my family who did the Very best they could with what they knew, didn't know, how to relearn ways of unlearning things that they had learned from the past. And it has been. It has definitely been, a tough path at times. And through all of that, the thing that has just anchored me more than anything is my faith. And I see, you know, I see people struggling with faith. I see people struggling without faith. And I will tell you that those moments of God's faithfulness in my life are moments that I would not change. I know that. I know that. I know that God is real, that he loves us, that he has a plan for us, that he sent his son to die for us, and he sent his son to die for you so that we could live with God eternally, forever. And then one day, in a way that we don't understand, he will make all things new. He will make all things right. And one day in heaven, all of the brokenness that we experience in this world will be better. And so here on Earth, we have a choice. We are all walking a broken path. We are broken humans, and we sin and we fall and we fail. And some of us have a harder path than others. That's just the way that life goes. And it's not fun, fair. And I don't understand it, but if God was small enough to be understood, he wouldn't be big enough to be worshiped. But as we're struggling, we have a choice. One path leads to life, another path. The other path leads to hopelessness, leads to destruction. That's all that there is. I don't want to walk on the path that says the best that there is, the best that there ever will be, is what we have here on Earth. And I have to rely on my human frailty to. To make that right and to come up with my own wisdom, my own power, my own strength to overcome my circumstances. Now, I do believe that God equips us. He gives us his strength, he gives us his grace. And we do have that recovery, that resilience, that hope, that restoration to some degree here on earth. And if I have that, then I want to believe that that is there waiting for us in eternity. And I want to pursue that path that leads to life. And throughout my faith journey, there have been people in my life who have written, people who have, especially music. Music has been a part of my life since I was very, very young. I've always been involved in worship, ministry, singing in a choir, but playing music, just playing songs of faith, songs that really reinforce, scripture, have Been so, so very important. And one of those songs that I have played in the darkest hours of my life, that I have sung in the darkest hours of my life starts with that says, my redeemer is faithful and true. Those words I have held on to. And if you know that song, you know that song was written by Steven Curtis Chapman. Now, I have followed Steven Curtis Chapman from his very early days. And in fact, when I was getting ready for this interview today, I went and pulled out all my CD covers, which I have here. Yes, we used to have. For all the youngins out there, we used to have a thing called a CD cover. That's a compact disc and it came with a little paper insert because we couldn't go to the Internet and look up the lyrics. Otherwise we just make them up. So you would listen to the CD and you would read the lyrics as you were listening to that cd. I remember going to the mall and making a custom CD that was like our 90s version of 80s mixtape. But his music has been so instrumental to me. I've been to concerts, I've read the. Their books, I follow their stories. And they are our guests today. And they will be joining us after the first. After the first break. So do not go away. You don't want to miss it. Because they have written a new book that is releasing this week. It's called Still Here Life Together on the Long Way Home. And one of the things that really struck me as I read their book is recognizing that, you know, when you follow someone, and you listen to them on the radio, you listen to their music, you see them on media and you see them in concert, you kind of think, oh, they've got it all together. But the gift that Steven and Mary Beth have given us is a peek at, what it's like at home and a glimpse into their brokenness. And they're so real, just like we are real. And this is what the Lord impressed on my heart. As I. As I saw these two pictures, I saw what they were saying. These were the struggles that we had been through. Here's the. The seasons that we went through, the fights that we fought, the. The things where the enemy tried to break us. And yet here we're trying to go out and do this music. Here's this concert, here's this interview, here's what happened behind the scenes. Here's how the Enemy worked to try to thwart that. And on the other side, I see just a woman crying in her car playing that song over and over again. And that would be me, by the way, playing My Redeemer is Faithful and True. And I know there's so many of you out there. You have a song that speaks to you, a song that encourages you, a song that sings to you just as God sings over us. We know that from Zephaniah. He rejoices over us with singing. And I believe that he has equipped people on this earth to sing over us in a reflection of the way that God sings over us. And I just want to encourage you, those people aren't perfect either. And it is encouraging to know that God makes such beauty out of brokenness. And one of the most powerful stories that I've seen in that happened actually once when I was at a Steven Curtis Chapman concert. Now, this was around the turn of the century, which my children just love to give me such a hard time about. Like, does the year start with a 1, Mom? Does it start with a 1 9? Well, this was right around the turn of the century from the album declaration. And I went to the concert because I went to. I went to see him sing every time he was in town. And he told a story there. A powerful true story of forgiveness and redemption and one of the most well known missionary accounts of the 20th century. Now, many of you probably know this story that I'm about to tell, but you may not know the connection here. So in 1956, there were five missionaries, including two who were probably most well known named Jim Elliot and Nate Saint. Some of you are already nodding, saying, oh, yes, yes, I've heard this story. They were killed while they were attempting to share the gospel with the Wadani, formerly known as the AKA tribe in Ecuador. Now, one of the men involved in the attack, one of the men who was holding the spear, who was there, was a man named Menkay, and he was a Wadani warrior who helped spear those missionaries. Now, years later, an extraordinary transformation took place in his life. And through the courageous ministry of the missionaries, their widows, their family members, including Elizabeth, Elliot and Steve Saint, who was Nate Saint's son, Menkay Came to faith in Christ. And what began as violence was ultimately met with forgiveness. Forgiveness. And it led to a reconciliation, a deep friendship. Now, you may be like me, and you grew up reading that story or hearing that story. It is a true story, a powerful story of redemption and forgiveness. And in today's day and age, we see so much glorification of vengeance, of revenge, of outrage, of eviscerating someone. I keep seeing that word all over social media. And here we have a story and of literal evisceration. it's that graphic and yet radical forgiveness, radical forgiveness that defies any understanding. Well, just like I had heard that story, many of you had heard that story. Steven Curtis Chapman heard that story and he connected with Steve Saint and he invited Menkay to participate in the recording of no Greater Love. Now, you may have heard that song, no Greater Love. And the song concludes, you hear this man chanting in his native language. It is very haunting and beautiful, but it is such a powerful symbol of God's redemptive power that crosses culture, crosses history, and crosses even the most profound loss. And I had heard the song and didn't really know the story behind that. And as I was at the concert, they brought out this man. He went on tour with Steven Curtis Chapman, and he came and he sang. I, I can't even barely talk about it, honestly, without getting emotional, because to such a picture of redemption. And you may think, how could the families of the people who were killed, of the men who were killed, how could they forgive that man? But to see that beauty and that forgiveness is something that will stay with me forever. Because we like to point out the sins of other people. We think, oh, that's so much worse. But when we look at the weight of our own sin, the weight of our own choices, the weight of our own brokenness, we all deserve that penalty of death. We do, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. And I would encourage you to maybe go back and stream that song again. It's called no Greater Love. And to think about that kind of sacrifice, and honestly, that is the kind of sacrifice that God calls us through to marriage. And so and again, as we see revenge and vengeance glorified, which the Bible says, vengeance is mine, say the Lord. We try to take that narrative, we try to take the narrative of marriage as well.

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman tell us that marriage is worth fighting for

And we try to make it into this made for TV movie, this moment of perfection, riding off into the sunset and how, everything is just going to be so glorious and so perfect. And we're going to feel like we're in love. And every day when we wake up, the birds are going to sing and the soundtrack is going to swell and, you know, he will bring me the perfect made coffee and I will say, oh, thank you, dear. And there will never be, a crossword in our lives. But it is true that marriage can be one of the hardest, hardest things that you'll ever do. It is a process of sanctification. And that is because marriage is a picture of Christ and his bride. And. And the enemy loves to attack that. The enemy loves to steal and to kill and to destroy and to tear that down. And we have to fight for it. And that is what Steven and Mary Beth tell us today, is that marriage is worth fighting for. They're giving us in their story, still here behind the scenes of their marriage for the very first time. Not to offer tidy formulas or quick fixes, but tell the truth about what it means to stay, to choose one another, and to trust God. Every day they write. A couple can be a crazy mess today and by the abundant grace of God, still be only a sunrise away from another whole new beginning. And that hope is hard won. It is honest. And that is where we are going to begin, because we cannot believe the lie that marriage is sold as the reward for finding the right person. It is one of God's primary tools for discipling us, for sanctifying. It is a practice field. It is two imperfect people who are learning, sometimes very painfully, how to bear one another in love. When we come back, we'll talk with Steven and Mary Beth about what four decades together have taught them about commitment and repentance and forgiveness and the humility required to keep growing when life keeps changing you. It's not just about navigating personality differences, although that's important. But it's choosing prayer over anger in moments of conflict. And their story is a powerful reminder that lasting luck isn't just built on, compatibility or feelings. Praise the Lord. It is built on grace. The book is still here. Life together on the long way home. And I'll still be here after this break with Steven and Mary Beth Chapman. Abortion moves fast, and right now in our communities, women are being pressured to make irreversible decisions. In moments of fear and panic, they're told to act quickly or risk losing support. And many feel they have no other option. But because of you, they do. At PreBorn Network clinics, a woman receives what the abortion industry will never offer. Compassion without pressure, clarity about the life growing inside her, and real support to welcome her baby and the hope of the gospel. She's given a free ultrasound and space to breathe. And more than 80% of the time when a mother sees her baby on a preborn ultrasound, she chooses life. This March, PreBorn is believing to save 6,800 babies, but it will take 124 partners saying yes every day. I'm asking you to pause your busy day for Just a moment and become a. yes, right now. Just $28 provides one ultrasound. $140 helps five mothers. Every dollar helps save babies and share hope. To donate, dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250 baby. Or visit preborn.com/AFR- that's preborn.com/AFR.

I Will Be Here by Steven Curtis Chapman: Tomorrow morning if you wake up and the sun does not appear I I will be here If in the dark we lose sight of love Hold my hand and have no fear. Cause I I will be here.

Steven Curtis Chapman and his wife Mary Beth talk about new book

Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back friends. That of course is the song I Will Be Here by Steven Curtis Chapman. And friends, I am so excited to tell you that Steven Curtis Chapman and his lovely wife Mary Beth are in fact our guests today. So hearing that song, you will now hear them speak. And they're here today to talk about their new book that is coming out this week. Still here, Life together on the long way home. I encourage you to get a copy of it if you are married. If you know anyone who's married, get them a copy of this book. I've had the privilege of reading it. It is so encouraging. And Mary Beth Chapman is a New York Times best selling author. Steven Curtis Chapman is a multi Grammy award winning artist. They are celebrating 40 years of marriage, A milestone that far surpasses any of those other accomplishments by their own testimony. And it's marked by not perfection, but by perseverance. Mary Beth and Steven, I cannot even tell you how delighted I am to have you here today. Welcome, welcome, welcome.

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: Oh, thank you so much. That was such a sweet introduction.

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: Yes, yes. We are honored to be with you and grateful to get to share our story and our journey and share it with our friends that we have been journeying with for a lot of years through the music and the songs and the books. Thank you for mentioning my wife, the New York Times best selling author, which she always likes to remind me that of the two of us, she is the best New York Times best selling author I am not. and that is true. So I am very proud of her for that, for that fact. But now it's a blessing to get to be with you all. And thanks for what you do. Thanks for the very important ministry that you have there and in the lives of so many people. And we're honored to be a little part of it.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, I want to catch everybody up just in case they don't know your story. We only have a limited time together so I put together a recap. I'M going to give it to you, and then you let me know if I missed anything. Okay, so we start out. This is from your own story, your own words. A hillbilly kid from Kentucky, that's Steven by the way, who started clogging at Opryland, meets someone in the audience who says, hey, I think you're okay. You're pretty good. Let me introduce you to my friend, by the way. His name is Bill Gaither. This. This guy also tells you about a place you'd never heard of called Anderson College. But meanwhile, there is, as you say, a simple Midwestern girl from Ohio who only dreamed about Anderson College. You meet over a mailbox, mix up, have a magical kiss at Red Lobster that was later immortalized in song. You get married that same year, drive away from your wedding with $50 in a green Ford Pinto. You honeymoon at the Cincinnati Zoo, which seemed to be a harbinger of the craziness to come, because six months later, the dog eats your birth control. A bunch of stuff in the middle. Lots of highs, lots of lows. Fast forward to now. Your Grammy and Pop pops, and you end up up still here at the Grand Ole Opry, Inducted, where your kids and grandkids celebrate your induction into that famous wooden circle just steps from all where it began, clogging on a wooden stage nearby. Did I get pretty much the gist of your story?

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: Yeah. Amazing.

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: Very impressive. Very well done.

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: Yeah. And can we take you with us everywhere we go? Because that was a thing to me

Dr. Jessica Peck: about have this in recording. So I feel like that's a legally bonding contract. Yes.

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: Yeah. The only thing I would add is the. The mix up at the. At the mailbox was. The mix up was the fact that my last name was Chapman, as was his. So the mix up was that we were sharing the mailbox, which is exactly how we met. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Peck: But, you know, I can see. I'm sorry to hear. Here's a little da, da, da. I can see the fingerprints of God in this story. I really can see. I love it.

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: I love. Take you everywhere. Yes.

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: I know. This is just too good. You've just got we the song titles in and out. And I'll play the song when you. When you.

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: Okay. Draw out the title. And we can do a little. Yeah, we got a little. We got a song and dance thing going right here. I'll clog and Mary Beth can do her, her moves from her junior, What was it, Junior Miss competition that she was in. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jessica Peck: This is sounding okay. This is Very original and not like a tour you've done before. I kind of think it would be a hit. But in all seriousness, guys, that is the fingerprints of God. You can God weaving together such a beautiful story.

Steven and Mary Beth say God's faithfulness is the cornerstone of their marriage

And the thing that I love is that you share the perspective that it is all the Lord. And I want to read a really short excerpt from your book because you say most of us in marriage think we're going to be the exception. Most of us, when we look ahead into adulthood, think we're going to succeed where others have failed. We're going to know what to do where perhaps others have lost their way and lost their minds and lost their families. We're going to make the kinds of plans and decisions we're going to build, the kind of home and marriage and personal character traits that help us handle whatever comes. And you go on saying that, but you just feel. You say we're going to do it, but you have found that it is not by your own might. It is God's grace throughout your story. And even that song that we played, I Will Be Here, was firstborn as you share it out of the sadness from the divorce of Steven's parents. And yet it is a marriage anthem and that God is making beauty from ashes. How have you seen God's faithfulness be the cornerstone of your marriage?

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: Well, I mean, it's. It's like we would both say God's faithfulness is. It's the cornerstone. It's the headstone. It's the thread woven through it. It's the glue. It's. It's everything. I mean, when. it's probably why. Honestly, we've wrestled with the idea of writing a book all these years, and we've been approached several times. Probably around the time I wrote I Will Be Here was probably the first time because that song was. Was, you know, used in so many weddings and, and it. And it became, you know, known within Christian weddings and. And families. And so we were approached about, you should write a book, about your journey and your marriage. And we've just always felt like, gosh, we. You write books when you figured it out and have, you know, the five steps or the keys or whatever. And we're still. We're still learning, and we're still mostly, we can tell you what not to do, but not what to do.

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: Still looking for the key? Yeah, we're still looking for the key, and we know it's around here somewhere. We just can't find it now. We're, having a hard time finding anything but, but the key, the, the hard thing is, honestly, I think we realized pretty early on the only key. And this is like one page. We can write the book. And it's going to be a one page book. I don't think people are going to. Any publisher is going to be interested. And it is, is God is faithful. God is God. I am not. you know, I could use a lot of song titles to say it, but Our Redeemer is faithful and true. And that's really all we got, is the faithfulness of God and trusting that in our marriage. and yeah, there's a lot of ways we can talk about that. And I can sing songs about it and Mary Beth can talk about it, but it really does come down to that one truth. God brought us together. we believe that God created marriage as this holy, cosmic, kind of very mysterious thing that represents our relationship with Him. so much bigger than we understand, so much more complex and wondrous and, and wonderful and hard and beautiful because it's a, you know, it's not, we're not battling against. There's flesh and blood, there's an enemy that hates it. I mean, it's all of that. But it really comes down to God is faithful. And if we just keep trusting him and running back to Him. So that is definitely the cornerstone for our marriage and our journey together.

One of the things I really appreciate about your book is this kind of look behind the scenes

Dr. Jessica Peck: One of the things I really appreciate about your book is this kind of look behind the scenes because, you know, I shared with you. I'm someone who's followed you from your early career. I have been at a lot of your concerts, and I see all of the things that are going on on behind the scenes, the struggles that you share in this book, the just the real path that you are. Real human people walking paths of brokenness. Some of those were generational brokenness that were left before you. And yet at the same time, I see myself and so many millions of others sitting in our living rooms, driving in our cars, pushing play, singing, you know, hearing My Redeemer is faithful and true. And seeing even in the middle of all of that brokenness and the messiness of humanity, God using your ministry and Mary Beth, you were such a big part of that and it required a sacrifice from you and such attention because you share a lot about your personalities. You're the planner. Steven is the player, like in more ways than one, right? He plays the guitar and he likes to play and have fun. And I understand that because I'm the planner in our relationship. What has that been like in your in your marriage, what are some of the things that you shared about navigating that tension and being such an important part of Steven's ministry?

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: Yeah, yeah. I think that, you know, gosh, early on in our marriage, I think that's where a lot of the tension was because I wanted to, you know, what, what we all want to do, we want to fix our spouse, which is kind of a fancy way to say we want him to be like us. you know, we want, we want our husbands to be in. We think. And the reality is, you know, falling in, falling in love and marrying someone that is so essentially different than you, it's what's attractive at. Right. It's like it's all the things that you kind of wish that you had some of those qualities of. I wish I could be a little more playful. I wish I didn't have to feel like that was so tied to my spreadsheets and my, my, you know, daily planner, my weekly planner, monthly planner, all of that. And then, you know, it doesn't take very long in a marriage for those very differences to become irritating. Right. And you know, for, for us, you know, we started our family accidentally because you mentioned the puppy. Puppy eating the birth control pill. We you know, with we. Emily showed up really early in our, on our marriage. So not only were we, you know, trying to, you know, control a calendar and a lifestyle of his career slash marriage, then we also were, you know, very young parents. And so some of those really, really early struggles were me just, you know, demanding that we lived by a calendar, we breathed by a calendar and we had everything, you know, planned out, written down. And of course we got married before computer even had a calendar on a program. So we're talking about paper calendars and daytimers, you know, and all of those things. But I think over the years the, the, you know, for me it's the prying of the fingers off of the control that I felt I needed to have and begin to understand that, you know, God called us to be together in this ministry and how can we work together for me to become a little less. Less tied to and for him to understand it is important that I love my wife in a way that she feels loved, she feels seen, she feels heard. So how can I, you know, help step into the planning and the controlling. And I've watched my husband give up whole tours depending on, you know, where our children are at, ah, in different phases of life, how he tours. Is he going to be gone 3 months non stop is that easier. So then when he comes home, he can, you know, unengage, or is it better to be gone four or five days, come home three or four days? You know, so many decisions I saw him begin to start making because he saw how important it was for me to feel loved, you know, in that one area of planning and calendar and all of that. And as now 40 some years has passed, I think we could probably go on record to say I've just thrown my hands up and thought, okay, whatever the day brings. I guess it's become so hard to have any sort of, you know, planning and long term conversations because we know that it's one area definitely where the enemy knows. You know, our. My daughter and her husband try to have weekly calendar meetings and I'm like, we know more. Could have a weekly calendar meeting. We did try. Yeah. At a certain point you just kind of give up and go, you know, what, Is it really that important? Yes. Some things are. Yes. We can also, you know, learn to laugh through them and do our best to, to try to make the point, you know, to make the plan. We direct our steps, you know, we, we make our plans. God directs our.

Dr. Jessica Peck: And he laughs a little.

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: Yeah, so it's, it's, it's all of it. It's, it's all a mess and it's all also, you know, me letting go a little bit and seeing him trying to step into some of it as well.

Steven shares illustration about X and a triangle in his new book

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Steven you shared a story in the book about an encounter you had with your dad fishing and talking about how to honor that planner in Mary Beth. And then illustration about a comparison between an X and a triangle and how this has helped you to come closer to Mary Beth. Can you share with our listeners about that?

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: Yeah, the. I think. I don't even know where we first sort of came across the, the triangle kind of idea. I know the X. I still remember sitting in our first of many, many too many maybe some would say certainly, our first invested heavily into the counselor counseling ministries of many people, over the years in Nashville and been grateful for much of that and sometimes very frustrated by some of it because like that doesn't seem to be helping us at all. But we sat in the early days, actually around the time I wrote I will be here and had a counselor do the first of, you know, many, many different personality tests. I think at that point they called it that, they called it that the personality test. Now you've got the, you know, all the different, you know, forms of that, but it was one of those early ones where they, they created a graph from kind of your. How do you respond to this situation? How would you, you know, how would you handle this? What's important to you? What, what matters to you? You know, what's. What's your, you know, you know, love languages or whatever. Wasn't. Wasn't that specifically. But it was. Came out on the graph. And, and, I rem holding, up two sheets of paper saying, well, here's, here's the problem. You know, if I can do this real simply, because where Mary Beth's

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: graph kind of intersects with yours, you know, intersects with yours. And the things that. How, how you just tick and operate, they. They form a complete X. Like, where I'm going up, she's going down. Where she's going up, I'm going down. And so there was this big X marks the spot. He's like, this is really, you know, this probably why you were attracted to each other because opposites attract and why

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: it's going to be a long life.

Dr. Jessica Peck: That's exactly right. You know what, guys, we're going to leave it right there at X marks this spot because we are already at our first break. But listen, we get to talk a little bit more. So don't go away. We're going to be right back and we'll hear the rest of that story on X marks the spot and how it goes to a triangle. The book is still here. Life Together on the Long Way home. Get your copy today, and I'll see you on the other side of this break.

 : The AFR app is a powerful tool, but it does have limitations. You can't use it to change the oil in your vehicle or get rid of carpet stains. It won't walk the Dog won't pick up the dry cleaning or take the kids to practice. But while you're doing those things, you can listen to your favorite AFR content through the app on your phone, smart device, or Roku. Just go to your app store or visit afr.net Listen to AFR wherever you go with the AFR app.

Be Still And Know by Steven Curtis Chapman: Be still and know that he is God. Be still and know that he is holy Be still, Oh restless soul of mine Bow before the prince of peace Let the noise and clamour cease.

Steven Curtis Chapman and his wife share their story of marriage

Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Be still and Know by Steven Curtis Chapman. You know, we play a lot of his music here on the show, and today he and his lovely wife, Mary Beth Chapman are our guests. They're talking about Their new book still here. Your life together on the long way home. I encourage you to read this really powerful story of marriage. Not a perfection, but of presence. And right before the break, Steven was telling us about sitting in a counseling session, which is so great and we need from time to time, and how the counselor drew an X and said, this is the problem. You and Mary Beth intersect here at all the wrong places. And Steven I'm gonna let you take it back from the there.

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: Yes. So somewhere we, we were, you know, over time and again, this part of the. Hopefully what people, if they hear our story and read the book, will know. This didn't come in a moment of, you know, clarity. This has been hard fought and just trusting God and, and taking the next step, and showing up and bearing with each other and loving through the man. This is so different and we're so different from each other. But over time, recognizing this other sort of image of a triangle, and again, we've probably all heard it. It's, it's pretty simple. but it's so true that we kind of start out, you know, on our different points on the triangle, kind of the bottom, if you imagine the triangle, the bottom two corners, the left and the right. Right. And as we are trying to move closer personally in our relationship to Jesus, which is ultimately, you know, what we're as followers of Jesus, that is the ultimate goal. That as we continue to do that, we find that we're continuing to move closer to each other, even with the differences. In fact, it's those differences and those kinds of things. It's the words of, my. One of my favorites and mentor through his writing and sermons and teaching. He's with Jesus now. But Tim Keller, that talks about. I really think that God's idea of marriage is so much more about making us holy than happy. And you know, as we draw closer to him that we realize, wait a minute, we're drawing closer to each other in this process. And you know, sometimes where one of us is moving, it seems like closer or faster than the other and then there's a whole opportunity there to go, okay, God, you are the Holy Spirit, not me. I'm not the fourth member of the Trinity, as my wife and I both know and have had to learn, keep learning that we're not the ones who supposed to do that work. But, but it is so true and we have learned it now. And that's one of the gifts of being 41 years into our journey, is that we can look back and See how God is. Has been doing that in our lives. And we just want to share that process, hopefully in a way that is going to encourage other people.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, one of the things that you share in the book is a little bit about your family history. You talk about Steven you talk about your grandfather, even Virgil, and some of the traumas that he endured and the things that he went through in his life. And. And Mary Beth, you talked even about your grandfather and some of the ways that he viewed his faith with. With such rigid rules in some ways. And there are good things, and there are. There are tough things, and every family is like that. And some of us carry a little more generational trauma than others. I know that has certainly been my story. And one of the things in your book that you said really, really touched my heart. And I'm going to read this excerpt. You said, we can't begin to count for you how many times we had to say to our kids, guys, we know you heard us yelling and screaming. We are so sorry about that. We don't want to do that or be like that, especially in front of you. But since you heard us saying those things, you also need to hear us saying this. Sweetheart, we forgive me. Yes. Will you forgive me? And you talked about even your son saying that you've learned how to hobble well, and this resonated with me because I married an Italian. I mean, the fights come with hand gestures and lots of loud talking. That was really hard for me. I came from a very passive aggressive, like, yes, we're going to talk about this, but like, with other people and not to each other. And we have had to go to our kids so many times and just say, I wish you didn't see the brokenness. I wish you didn't experience that. But if you see us broken anywhere, see us broken at the foot of the cross. What is it like to see your kids then take on that mantle of generational healing? Not perfect, but doing things better than you did.

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: It's been a daily practice. Practicing it just a few days ago. Yeah, well, yeah, so we were practicing that just a couple days ago. You know, our kiddos are now. This is crazy, because I feel like this should be my age, but I have a daughter that's. That in just a couple weeks will be 40. Our oldest will be 40. And then. And Caleb is now, 36. Will Franklin's 35 show is 26. And Stevie Joy, who, by the way, is on her way home to visit for a couple days from University

Dr. Jessica Peck: of Alabama Roll t. Roll Tide.

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: That's part of, part of your history. And And you know, it's, it's been one of those things where, you know, you wish with everything in you, you don't have to sit and repent and, and model m that because you wish you had never had the argument in the first place. but if all, if all our children ever seen us do is argue, then obviously that sets them up for not good things. So it's been a practice that's been, modeled in our home more times than we would like to say. But our son Caleb, who I said is the 36 year old, wrote a blog not too many years ago on reflection of his parents. And that's where that phrase, my parents are not perfect, but they've learned to hobble well. and if anything can be said about us, we want our children to go, man, mom and dad fought the good fight. They, they also fought some terrible fights, but they modeled that they love each other, you know, that they forgive each other. apologizing to us for the, the un. Untimely things that they heard or saw. and, and that's all, that's all we can do, right, is the, the forgiveness that comes to us from each other when we argue and then the forgiveness that comes from the father being modeled to our children is I think what helps break those generational chains and sin and the things that help us move forward. Yeah, I think the, the verse, one of the, one of the many verses that we've sort of hung over, you know, the doorway of our hearts is in repentance and rest is our salvation. And I just, I feel like if we've done anything we felt like with our, with our kids, you know, it's. If they can see us repent, we. Well, you know, that's going to communicate so much. It's going to first of all communicate that we need Jesus, we need a Savior, that we don't have it all together. If there's, you know, anything that we can give our kids, because the truth, that is the truth. No matter how put together or well we do it, we are still sinners. And it's knowing that as we repent and then rest in the finished work of what the cross is and what the gospel is, and they can see that in us and that's going to be the absolute best thing that we can give them. and then just bearing with one another in love that implies so much that there's going to need to be repentance there's going to be need to be forgiveness. There's going to be ways that we're going to disappoint and let each other down, and we're going to trust God to give us the grace and the strength to bear with that.

The last chapter of our book is called It's Worth it

And in all of that, then the last chapter of our book is called It's Worth it because we really. That's, I guess what's sitting here at 41 years, still on. On journey in process, still two steps forward, three steps back some days. but being able to look back and go, man, it's been. It has been so worth it to just continue to trust God, to give us the grace and the strength and to repent and watch now how it's getting played out in the lives of our k. and even our grandkids now.

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: Yeah, I think too, it's important to just note that I think we start at least for our journey. I think there's so much of those early years where we want to be right. Right. We all want to be right. We all want to be heard. We all want our, you know, our, our campaign to be the one that's right. But I think in that rest part of that scripture is as we've kind of grown older and we've learned so much from not doing it right, from doing it wrong. I think that that piece comes into play where I'm not going to try to fix Steve. I'm going to rest in Jesus to fix Steve. So I'm just going to, you know, pray and go, God, you know my heart and you know, you know, these are the longings of my heart. These are the things that I'd love to see my husband step into more. Lord knows he's done that with, with Jesus. When it comes to me, you know, Lord, you know, the longings of my heart towards Mary Beth, you know, the, you know, the areas and just resting in the finished work of Jesus is the one who speaks to our heart and helps us, you know, really change. And so, you know, hopefully with our. Our children, they've seen that shift too, as well as, you know, not so much the confronting each other about change or you didn't hear me or you didn't do this, right? But just really allowing, you know, a peaceful place to go. You know what, it's all God's and God alone can do this work. and so, you know, that. That's the other piece I would add into that is the prayer piece.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Mary Beth, I can see why you're A New York Times best selling author. Because I think that that is such a powerful core of your message right there. And I hope that that is what people will take away from your book and reading about your journey is that it's not one of perfection, but as Steven said, it is so worth it in the end. And I see people all around me who experience brokenness. Maybe that's generational trauma they carry from their family. Maybe it's tragedy that they face. Maybe it's trials, completely not their fault. It can be so many things, but sitting in that brokenness is hard and it's painful, but there's no hopeful ending. It's just. It's painful and that's it. In the struggle, in the pain where you are, you're progressing. And maybe it feels like, like you said, some days it's two step forward, three steps back. But I think that God gives us such a gift and seeing that in our children, seeing Caleb write that blog, I mean, what a testimony because there's so many parents who would say, oh, I hope my kids get up at my fun and say, I was a perfect parent and I did all of this right. But for you to have the humility and grace to say that, that is manifesting it in your kids. And I just want to give a shout out. Can we just have a moment to talk about Emily? Because I am the oldest of five, I'm the oldest daughter, and then my daughter is the oldest, and I have seen her bear the weight of my learning, of my learning curve. And so many times she'll tell me, mama, that's your trauma talking like, you need to reframe it. And I've had to learn, learned to listen to her, and there were a lot of similarities. And you talking about Emily, even making candid observations about your parents, seeing like, okay, that would not have flown with me, and now you're a totally different parent. You talk about leaning into that, but I would love to just give Emily a little credit for being the guinea pig, as my daughter calls herself, the trailblazer.

Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman: I'm gonna give a huge shout out to my, my oldest, Emily. Chapman Richards is one of the finest, finest humans you will ever meet. Baylor Bear another, another reference there to you. the, she, you know, I tell people all the time, like, if you can describe your children quickly, Emily is a massive, massive blend of Steven and I. I say that she got the, the best parts of Steven and I. And then Caleb is gonna 90% Steve, super creative, just an amazing songwriter. You Know, rock and roll roller. Will Franklin is the same amazing song, my rock and roller. All that, and then he got some of my, stinkerism. I don't know if that's a word, but, yeah, he can be super competitive like his mama. But, Emily, you are right. Those oldest children, they. They bear the brunt of a lot of what we bring into our. Our marriages. And she came so early, and yet the Lord had this, I think, a special protection over her. And just her willingness and her wisdom as she grew, you know, she's become one of my dearest friends, which is, you know, I get. I think that's the highest compliment I can give her, is that, you know, we are not, you know, we're not adversaries, that we are dear, dear friends. And she's brought so much wisdom and then just her love, of the things that we love and that we care about, you know, adoption and families and healthy families and advocacy and all these things. And, you're right. We, if there is a special award we can give firstborns that we learn so much on. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Gosh. I remember, you know, just being in the hospital, having had a C section with her, and they, you know, told me the day I got to take her home, it was like, I looked at you and went, wait a minute. They're gonna. They want us to take a human home with us, and we have to keep her alive. This is like, I don't know that we're ready for this. You know? It's like, yep, you're taking her home. She's yours. And it's like, oh, man. You know? And so thus begins the. The true great adventure. Right? You know, they teach us, so much. Much about things we didn't know. You know, we had. We had to learn on somebody. And so, yes, huge shout out to my amazing oldest, Emily Richards.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, goodness gracious, guys. We are already at the end of our time together. I cannot tell you what a blessing it has been to spend some time with you and to see your courage and sharing your testimony. I hope that our listener listeners will read the whole story. It's called Still Here Life Together on the Long Way Home. And such a beautiful testimony of, grace. We will continue playing your music. you have just been such a personal encouragement to me. I just thank you so much for all that you have done. You will never know this side of heaven, how much you've encouraged people along the way, and listen to all of those out there listening. May the Lord bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you. May he lift his countenance upon you and give you peace. I'll see you right back here next time. Thanks so much for tuning in. We'd like to thank our sponsors, including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR the views and

Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.