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The Lindsay Clancy murder trial is one step closer to potential mistrial
Jenna Ellis: Good morning. It is Thursday, September 3, and the Lindsay Clancy jury may be deadlocked. And, the judge may be on the brink of declaring a mistrial after the judge gives the deadlocked jury a last resort charge after they can't reach a verdict. And so this coming from the NewSong York Post, the high profile Lindsey Clancy murder trial is one step closer, closer to potential mistrial after the judge issued a last resort order. When jurors announced for a second time, late yesterday, they were deadlocked. The jurors are nine women and three men. That's all that we know about them. so jury selection of Wadir was not, of course, televised for their protection. They haven't been sequestered, which is interesting, to note. But they sent the judge a, note yesterday that they were still at an impasse about whether, to convict Lindsay Clancy a first degree murder for strangling her three young children or, a guilty on one of those lesser included charges or find her not criminally responsible or, at at worst, in my opinion, completely not guilty. So, let's welcome in Ron Coleman who is an attorney and host of the Coleman Nation for more on this. And, Ron, how close do you think that the judge actually is from declaring a mistrial? Because it's only been a week yet the jury's come back twice saying we just can't resolve this. I think it's today or bust.
Jenna Ellis: All right, well, that's about as specific as you can get. I think so too. I mean this is, this, this advisement is basically the judge going back to the jury and saying, you know, don't m. Don't resolve this trial by losing your convictions or just trying to compromise. But at the same time you can talk to each other. Deliberation is what the jury is supposed to, to do. And so, you know, listen to each other and you know, you're here in order to reach a verdict. So basically, please, please, please try.
Christian: I think a mistrial is best outcome for the prosecution this time
So, what, you know, you've been, in a number of situations in front of juries. I have on, you know, the prosecution and the defense side. And it's always, there's always the worst point, for the lawyers trial to just sit around and wait for the jury. if this is a mistrial, do you think that it is better, for the defense or for the prosecution going into a second trial?
Ron Coleman: I think it's, it just might be. I was looking at this from all the way in northern NewSong Jersey, but it looks to me as if short of a, short of a guilty, verdict, this is the best outcome for the prosecution because they get to, they get to do it right this time. I mean, the problem is the jury pool. I'm not, I don't believe there was any serious lack of preparation or but whatever didn't go right the first time, they, they've got another shot at it. And there are no, there aren't going to be any surprises left in terms of, approaches, strategies, tactics that could be used by the defense. I do think this judge has let the defense lawyer get away with some really outrageous stuff in terms of comments that he's made, referring to the prosecution in front of the jury. I imagine the judge is going to be this. Well, actually, no, now that I think about it, I was about to say the judge is the judge. You can't really, can't really redo that. But the fact is, I just had a judge yesterday learn a little bit. I don't want to go through the details, but he tried, he tried to get tough with, a certain lawyer who's been practicing long enough to not let it happen. I do think the judge might say, I'm going to run a little bit tighter ship this time because I don't need another mistrial. It's got to be done right.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And that, you know, I mean, there weren't really, legal issues or, you know, things that, arose for a mistrial. I mean, it's just the, the obvious guess. And of course we haven't talked to the jury. we don't know their thinking but if they're anything like the court of public opinion, it's that there are just so extreme differences on how the public is perceiving this case. I mean, on one hand you have people like me who say, even if the defense story and the psychosis and all of that is 100% accurate and you can prove all of that, it doesn't matter. she should be criminally responsible because of the preparation that was shown, because of, methodically, ah, strangling her kids over the course of 18 minutes. She should have criminal responsibility. And then on the, on the other side of that are the people who are sympathetic towards her and saying, well, she reached out for help and, and they believe that the psychosis should excuse her. And I think they're under a little bit of misperception, thinking that, you know, she's going to stay super long term in some kind of mental health facility if, she ends up being found not criminally responsible, but postpartum psychosis, neither side is alleging that that's still continuing. but my point is both sides of the court of public opinion are very staunchly, embedded in their sides. And if that's what this jury is, and you have even one person on one polar opposite side who refuses to give up any ground, then that leads to a deadlock. And so regardless of how streamlined or, you know, or better perhaps the prosecution is in laying out their facts, I think they didn't predict, that the public would be so sympathetic toward Lindsey Clancy. And so if they, kind of step up their game a little bit, I'm not really sure that that would make a difference in the second trial.
Ron Coleman: Right. I think we all agree there's no way to be sure. But I do think that if I were the judge, what I would be thinking is, clearly there are some jurors who have let their emotions sway them, their sympathy. And I think we can both agree that, you know, you as a Christian are very focused on mercy and loving your fellow man. there has been an epidemic of empathy that has prevented our society from recognizing right and wrong. And it, we're seeing it as, you know, we're seeing violent criminals across the system being repeatedly given another, Another chance, being, having empathy and sympathy and pity extended to them and take advantage of that. I'm not worried that she's going to kill more children, although that's happened in similar situations. But whether or not she is going to be appropriately punished for this outrage, I mean, this should not be A five hour deliberation, much less a five day deliberation.
Jenna Ellis: Yes.
Ron Coleman: This is utterly insane. So the only thing I would think the judge could do differently, believe it or not, I started out responding to your comment. the only thing I can see doing differently is trying to keep the emotional stuff, the hard tugging stuff more on leash and the, you know, the, the demonization of the prosecution here, but is got to be a factor that the judge has to think has had some impact on this deliberation.
Jenna Ellis: But do you think that that that ship has sailed in the sense that this has become such a nationwide public trial that you know, the next jury certainly would have seen public coverage and I mean I don't know anyone who doesn't have a very strong opinion on this. So how could we even get to another impartial jury that, that could be seated in a case like this?
Ron Coleman: That's a great question. I don't know. But the system demands that we try. And there have been many cases where it looked impossible, but it has happened. I mean the judge definitely has to worry that anything, any misstep by him, any attempt to cut corners in order to prevent another deadlock jury will result in a, an error that will result in reversal because we know there's going to be an appeal there. but this is why he gets the medium sized bucks.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, yeah. And I mean the system does demand it. But whether or not that's that's really practically possible, I mean if I lived in that jurisdiction and was called as, as a juror, I would, I would have to honestly say there I can't be impartial because what I've seen, and the trial being fully televised, I mean it's, it's, it's a lot of people are following this. I mean I know several friends of mine personally who've literally watched every moment of the trial on you know, Court TV and, and all of that, to say, you know, I know about this, this case and I already have an opinion and that's not going to to be changed regardless of what, what a second trial brings out. because you know, yes, while Christians are are called to to love each other, you know, all of the one another's in scripture and mercy is part of the attributes of. And and the, and Romans 13 talks about the government, ah, carrying the sword, or that metaphor for justice and for swift ah, punishment for evildoers and to promote good in society and restrain evil. And this woman's actions were clearly evil. And I don't buy, any of these excuses. And I've said, Ron Coleman, my special guest this morning, I've said throughout this process that I don't actually think that, the insanity defense should be able to be used as broadly as it now, you know, currently has been in the United States. I think that all of this should only be relevant at. As mitigation, at sentencing, or potentially as part of a plea agreement. do we as a society have an obligation, you know, regardless of the outcome of this particular trial, it's raised the question, in society about the insanity defense. Do we have an obligation to revisit that and to perhaps legislate accordingly?
Ron Coleman: You're making a fantastic point. We have clinicalized all of behavior in our society. No one is to blame for anything. For his failures, for his condition, for his drug addiction, for his obesity. Everything is a matter of brain chemicals or, I'm, depraved because I was deprived. And this is the logical and, by the way, world events, our ability to, You know, I'm not justifying. I'm just explaining. When you explain, there is always a shadow of justification. and we see that outrageous immoral acts have become justified by our culture, and now here we are. It is absolutely heartbreaking. And, you know, there is simply, literally no greater earthly love than a mother for her children. And a woman who will go this far and do what she did, regardless of what her brain chemicals or the voices in her head are telling her to do, simply does not belong in our society anymore. Period.
Jenna Ellis: Oh, 100%. 100%. And so if you're the prosecution right now and seeing the. The levels of sympathy and, and, you know, a lot of these people that are for, not guilty or not criminally responsible. Would you rather have a hung jury and a second bite at the apple, which might actually be a better bite? if the prosecution figures, out, you know, what went, what they could do better. Not necessarily what went wrong, but then also. And then also, if you are anticipating the judge potentially streamlining, things more. Would you rather have the hung jury, or a compromise verdict on a lesser offense?
Ron Coleman: I think if I'm the prosecution, if I could get a compromise vertical in Western events, I'd probably take it. I think you got to take it. And, there's a, you know, that's the difference between this world and the next world.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, Earthly justice versus the lordly justice.
Ron Coleman: But we can't achieve it. In this world.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. Yeah.
Ron Coleman: It's possible the jury is only deliberating on degree of guilt
And so do you think then that it's possible that instead of, you know. Because I think, I think the media. And we're all just speculating on what the jury is potentially thinking again, because, no one has interviewed them and I hope if there is a mistrial, that the judge does pull the jurors so that we get an understanding of, where this jury was at. there's been speculation, of course, that it's, you know, all three of the men that are for the first degree murder and it's the women categorically that are for Lindsey Clancy. that may be the case, but, but we don't know about these particular, impanel jurors. it could be the exact opposite or it could be a spl. we have no idea. But, Is it possible that the jury is only deliberating on the degree of guilt? I personally think that's a little less likely just because they could probably, if everybody's saying, yes, she's guilty of something, that or she's guilty here, we're just figuring out if it's first degree versus manslaughter. that probably wouldn't lead them to such an impasse. that's just my perception. What do you think?
Ron Coleman: I think that's as good a perception as any. I mean, as you pointed out, we don't really know what's going on inside the jury room. People have read the tea leaves and come to certain conclusions. There seems to be a sort of, consensus that there are two female jurors who are the holdouts, the m ones wearing pink. Who knows? Who really knows? Juries are black boxes. They're frightening.
Jenna Ellis: Yes, yes. And, you know, and that just underscores, I think, the point that, because of how unprincipled society has become in a lot of ways, we, have always said that, conservatives and you know, attorneys in general have always said, you know, this is not an imperfect system. System, but it's the best worldwide. And the constitutionally protected right to a jury of your peers is part of the hallmark of due process. when we have situations like this and we're seeing, I mean, all of these people outside the courtroom, these crazy women who are, who are suggesting all sorts of, you know, potential harm to their own kids and, the tick tock women, you know, all of these things, they could have been the ones on the jury, potential or a future jury. And that's very frightening. So do we contemplate as a society as well, revisiting the standards for juries. I mean I don't think we're going to overhaul the system entirely, you know, anything like a professional jury, which I've advocated for. That was actually my, my third, year law school. capstone paper. But ironically enough. And but do we, do we revisit perhaps, some qualifications for jurors? I mean, you know, it's a very bare minimum of what can actually the type of person that can actually be seated on a jury.
Ron Coleman: Well, the biggest problem is that the best qualified jurors are the ones who don't end up on juries. They don't report, they get excused because of unavoidable. And it's. I've seen judges excuse people, you know, during voir dire, for the most unbelievable things. And I'd also seen judges ruin multi billion dollar mergers and acquisitions, because that someone said that they were working on. They had to be in London next week and then said no, you're going on the jury. And then I got the case dismissed after the plaintiffs, after plaintiff's case was closed.
Jenna Ellis: Oh wow.
Ron Coleman: Didn't even get to the jury deliberate.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, yeah.
Ron Coleman: And the system is really imperfect, but it's constitutional right.
Jenna Ellis: And I think that's the point here, with everybody who is frustrated looking at this and saying, as I have, you know, that, and as you have Ron Coleman, that this really shouldn't be a deliberation that lasted even, you know, five minutes in my opinion. but this is the system as imperfect as it is. And so I do anticipate as well that a mistrial is coming either today or tomorrow. if the jury can't return a verdict, it'll be interesting to see if they end up being able to come together. It has to be unanimous. but the question of, you know, where do we go from here as a society is a big one. And it's been sparked by this, this trial I think in ways that we need to wrestle with as a society. Society. So really appreciate the legal insight. We're going to be talking about this more, but we will be right back with more here on Jenna Ellis in the morning.
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Orin McIntyre: The Lindsey Clancy case raises fundamental questions about morality
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. And as we're continuing to talk about the Lindsey Clancy case, with which, all of America is talking about, regardless of what this jury ultimately decides or whether it is a mistrial that is declared and the process starts all over again and there is potentially a resolution or a second trial, the bigger conversation is what we need to continue to discuss because underneath all of the testimony and the competing experts and the legal standards and all of this is the fundamental question what makes a human being morally responsible for what he or she does? and that can be answered, of course, in light of scripture, that we have agency, we make choices, we can understand right from wrong. And because we are moral actors, society can and should justly hold us accountable when we deliberately harm another human being or even act, in recklessness, you know, which, the standard of course is that your actions could reasonably foresee, that harm would occur to another person even if you didn't, intend it. And the excuses and justifications, of course, for what would otherwise be criminal acts have been solid in the, the criminal justice system, for, for even before the founding of America. I mean these are things that, that go all the way back through civil society through the ages that you know, of course self defense, of course if you are, if you are saving another, you know, there, there are multiple ways that that, that you are not necessarily responsible for what would otherwise be a criminal act. or if for example, and this is not what is, is being alleged here at all. But let's say that that Lindsey Clancy was being given these, these drugs, by her medical provider without her knowled directly and specifically caused these acts. Well, we would contemplate that a little bit differently. But she knew, she knew the possibility and was, was herself willing to take these drugs even, regardless of the consequences, and regardless of the labels that, that say, you know, these are potential side effects and all of those things. So we're not in that category. but the, but the bottom line of what makes a person morally responsible for what he or she does, I think we are blurring the line as a society in a way that is incredibly damaging. And so let's welcome in Orin McIntyre, who's a host at the Blaze, frequent guest here, and always appreciate philosophizing, with him.
Oren Robinson: Response to the Lindsey Clancy trial has been disturbing
So Oren, it's been very disturbing to say the least, to see some of the response to the Clancy trial, that while on one hand, some I can understand, even though I don't, I don't share it, I can understand the sympathy, for Lindsey Clancy. but at the same time to think that it is, it is a justification or an excuse in society, this, this cannot occur and we still have a well ordered or moral and upright society if this is where we're headed.
Auron MacIntyre : Yeah, you know, obviously it's not a one to one, but really, this reminds me a lot of their reaction, after Charlie Kirk died in the sense that everyone is looking around and they can't believe that this is something their neighbor would say, that this is something that they would, you know, admit out loud that they have these sympathy, sympathies or these feelings. You know, Lindsey Clancy is a cold blooded murderer. She absolutely slaughtered her three children one by one, slowly and methodically, with predetermined, you know, she, she had a plan. Sitting her husband across town, the whole nine yards. Nothing about this was accidental or impulsive. It wasn't some takeover of immediate emotions. It's not like she turned around and stabbed the kids with a knife while she was cooking or something because she was so overwhelmed. She methodically planned this from the beginning. And yet we see a large number of women, not all women, in the same way that not all Democrats were celebrating, you know, Charlie Kirk's death. But a disturbing percentage of women seem willing to go online and say, yes, I support this woman. I feel for this woman. She's justified in some way, or actually her husband did it in some kind of Candace Owens conspiracy style way, where actually he was, you know, instructing her somehow to do it the whole time, or he did it himself. I mean, the theories are absolutely wild. And so it creates this very surreal moment where people wonder, you know, is this really the opinion that some women have about, you know, what's going on, that another woman could just somehow have a justification to murder her own children, or she's somehow not culpable, or actually her husband did it even though her own attorney is admitting that she did it in the trial. It's not even up for debate. And so I think this is just a stunning moment for a lot of people. It's very clear that some percentage of women on Tik Tok and Instagram are kind of trapped in some social media loop where they can convince themselves of absolutely outrageous things. and it's, I think it's disturbing to everybody who's watching it even many, many women just stunned about what's going on here.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And you make such a good point that, you know, this isn't a close call. This isn't a case that we're having this conversation because there are factors that, you know, go in one direction or the other. And so we're. We're having to see, you know, where the line is and draw the line very carefully because this case is right on the edge. I mean, this is something that is just so clear with, the facts and the, And the standards that should be in the law here that I think, so many of us who are seeing this biblically and rationally are saying, you know, this shouldn't be a close call. but where do we go as a society when we're continuing to see more and more extreme instances of people who want to justify really heinous evil acts for a variety of reasons? whether that's, you know, the defense, in the Charlie Kirk case, you know, talking in open court about how, you know, Charlie had hateful speech, which, of course is not true. That's the perception. but was essentially asserting that as fact and somehow trying to mitigate, Tyler Robinson's actions by suggesting that if you don't like what another person says, you can perpetuate a crime on them. I mean, this is just something. These are things that have been so rigid as principles in Western civilization for eons that we're starting to see that foundation crumble, and it's really alarming.
Auron MacIntyre : Well, the obvious through line here is that there are certain groups that are considered victimized in our society. And there seems to be a belief among a disturbingly large percentage of our population that if anything happens to those groups, those preferred groups, they're always victims. They're never the perpetrator. Obviously, we've seen this, with black Americans. Whether you look at the, you know, O.J. simpson case, where a jury kind of clearly let a guilty man go just because he was black, and they were worried about what that might do to their city, their responses that might happen if he was found guilty, or what they. How they might be targeted if he was found guilty. we've seen this response for people like Carmelo Anthony, who was allowed to raise, like, a million dollars for killing Austin Metcalfe, with many people justifying what he did, saying, well, once a white man says the N word, which we have no evidence that Austin Metcalf did at all, that's just a assertion, because they know it's a get out of jail free card. But the assertion was enough for people to say, oh, well, because someone said he might have said a word. I mean, this black kid can't be held responsible for what he does. And it seems the same as now being extended to a woman. Well, if a woman did something and she claims to be a victim, then she's a victim. And that's all there is to it. The man must have made her do it, or the man must have done it. There was some reason that she was compelled, that was out of her control. It seems almost like there's an assertion, a strange kind of Schrodinger's agency that exists. Where these subgroups of women or black men were told that they have agency. We're told that they are strong and independent. But then if they actually do something, well, it turns out actually everyone else is to blame. And maybe it turns out that everyone else failed them, the system failed them. That's what we've heard so much with Lindsey Clancy. And so we have to start making a decision. Either these groups are ultimately individuals who can be held accountable because they have agency, or they aren't. And then, we need to think about the way that we arrange our society. But what we can't do is be in a situation where we pretend these people have agency, and then the minute they do something, actually it's all a man's fault or it's white people's fault or something like that. Either women have the ability to make decisions and be held accountable for them, or they don't. And it's very strange that we have this moment where a large number of women are saying, well, she just can't be held accountable for the things she does.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And those are two absolutely incompatible worldviews. To have moral agency and then have, a the response that, that all a lot of these women are having to Lindsey Clancy, that she doesn't have moral agency because of extenuating factors. And those are the two competing worldviews. but also, as you mentioned, and I've talked about extensively on this show as well, with the cultural Marxism that comes into play, if you view, women as always the oppressed, then no matter what they do, it's always morally justified according to, that worldview, which we know, of course, is not compatible with true justice. And one other, argument that I've seen from, you know, those who are frustrated with all of the women that are trying to excuse Lindsey Clancy, is that the 19th Amendment should be repealed. which of course, you know, is the, the amendment that allowed women the right to vote and access that franchise. And I. I don't think that the 19th Amendment is the problem, here when we're talking about, feminism and, and you know, some of these incompatible worldviews, cultural Marxism and, And and you're talking about moral, you know, the lack of moral agency or, holding people responsible. Religious pluralism, I think, is more to blame here than the 19th Amendment. I'm not claiming that religious pluralism automatically produces feminism, but that secular feminism becomes culturally necessary once a society rejects a, shared religious account and a biblical or divine order. Ah, sex, marriage, family and human purpose. And so secular feminism didn't emerge simply because society began valuing women or, you know, quote unquote, equality, or even this kind of Marxist trend. Christianity already taught and still teaches that women's equal dignity is. It comes from God. And feminism emerged because religious pluralism displaced the biblical fact framework that gave sexual difference meaning. And so once society could no longer say what men and women are designed for, the difference between men and women, feminism reduced equality to sameness, of freedom, to autonomy in the female body, to a problem that the law, I think, and technology has to overcome. M. Because now we're seeing, you know, this kind of cultural Marxism that's embedded, including the necessity and right, in their view, of course, for abortion and for the lack of responsibility in a lot of these cases that deal with feminist issues.
Auron MacIntyre : Yeah, I mean, this is obviously a complicated topic, but I mean, you know, the 19th Amendment itself is at some level born out of a feminist movement. there were many anti suffragettes, many women who opposed the 19th Amendment, who specifically said they like it because they were afraid that it would tear apart families. That, the idea that families would vote differently, that spouses would vote differently, might cause serious ruptures in marriages and ultimately lead to a serious gender divide. I mean, there's a difficult, again, question over whether or not we think that ultimately this political rift is one that will, you know, keep the two genders apart. But when we look at our politics, it's increasingly clear that the genders are being treated as different voting blocs. And this is very dangerous. If you look at the voting in South Korea, you have basically a male party and a female party. And right now the fertility rate in South Korea is something like 0.7%. South Korea might not make it as long as North Korea at this point, which has a birth rate double that of South Korea. so there are real questions about what this does to a society well beyond whether women individually are capable of voting. That's not the question. It's, is this ultimately good for society? Does it create this rift? So did feminism cause this situation? Or did the proto feminism of separating men and women as voting blocks begin this journey? That's a chicken and the egg question that, again, is hard to ultimately answer. Women are obviously, by themselves capable of voting. But does this agitate society in a way that exacerbates a gender war? I think that's a question worth asking.
Many people are speculating that women have hung the jury in Lindsey Clancy case
That said, obviously, you know, women voting has nothing to do with how they feel about the Lindsey Clancy trial. More importantly, however, it does have something to do with jury. Many people are speculating, and I think in some cases it's been confirmed that it's women who have hung the jury, that it's ultimately women who, won't find Lindsey Clancy guilty, who are holding up to trial. And if that's the case, then we have a very serious issue on our hands, because, you know, we've seen the same thing when, again, when it comes to African Americans who are far more likely to say, I will not convict another African American under any circumstances, whether I think the evidence is there or not, if women are seeing themselves as a similar identity group that needs to band together and stand for each other in all times and all places, instead of objectively looking at a case and being able to render a verdict, well, then we do have a real problem. Like, then our, theoretical question of chicken the egg becomes something really tangible. Because if we can't get fair trials in the United States, because women will always stand up, for women, and black people will always stand up for black people, then we don't have trials. We have tribalism. And our system is not built to be able to handle this. We built a jury system on the idea that people would be able to evaluate this question. And if women as a block, are working with each other to make sure that no woman is convicted, well, you know, then we're obviously in a place where, all of this has gone off the rails. Like fundamental parts of our system break down.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And so much more to be said on this. We've got to take a break here. But, you know, you raised some really serious points that, the. The presumption, the underlying presumption of our jury system is that people will be more faithful adherence to the principles of justice than they will to tribalism. And this is where cultural Marxism has an effect. And it has consequences in society. And it's not just for women, you know, for, for African Americans. It's not for you know, just those categories. It's if you have you know, any sort of tribalist mentality, you know, if Republicans are only always defending Republicans, all of these things, whatever your tribalistic adherence is, if you have that over principle in any context, but especially a criminal justice system, then it no longer becomes a just or a moral and upright society. And these are things we're going to have to continue to deal with. But Oren, McIntyre, thanks so much. You're sticking with me through the break. We will be right back with more.
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Flock cameras are triggering nationwide backlash over privacy concerns and police abuse
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. Well, as we continue into this brave new world on in a lot of different philosophical questions, moral questions, we are also talking about privacy versus catching criminals. Obviously we know that the state, and legitimate law enforcement is necessary for the public safety and for the advancement of course of promoting good, restraining evil. But the question that is being raised by flock cameras can't be ignored because this is triggering nationwide backlash over privacy concerns and police abuse. So Orin McIntyre from the Blaze is still with me on the program to talk about this. And these are essentially surveillance, a huge surveillance infrastructure. And we've already seen Instances where these have been abused, by law enforcement for, to follow or to, look at people. In like one instance was a police officer who used some of these searches, to try to find, an ex girlfriend and traced her license plate, you know, something over a hundred times. I mean, so there's instances like that. But then there have also been instances of these, flock cameras misidentifying license plates. And, you know, there was a story that a man was pulled over and had to show the cops and justify that this wasn't a stolen vehicle. So, you know, in a wide variety of ways of flock cameras are, being discouraged by some who. And I think by mainly the conservative movement because of privacy issues, but companies are still pushing for it. So, where do you see the line of controversy here and, what's going on with flock cameras?
Auron MacIntyre : Well, obviously we just had governor desantis say that we're no longer be using them on state highways and interstate, that kind of thing. And I think he's reading the room and recognizing that there's a lot of concern about what's going on here. Obviously, license plate reading cameras have been around for a long time. That's not something new. What the flock cameras do is introduce the AI component. It runs all of these, pictures through a database and basically allows them to be searched in real time. If you have an extensive enough network of these cameras, you basically have a real time map of every car that is on the road, in your city, in your municipality. Now, the supreme court has said that for the police to track a, a vehicle with something like gps, you need a warrant. You have a fourth amendment right. And, you know, they have to go to the court in order to get that. They have to prove, that you're worth tracking in this manner. There is no such restriction for flock cameras, Even though they're functionally doing the same thing. They're providing a live GPS style update where every car is on the road, Even though no one has been issued a warrant to do this. basically they're cheating through the fact that this technology is too new, to have any judge rulings on it. And law enforcement is rolling this out all over the country. I know in some places, in fact, I spoke to one county commissioner here recently at an event I was speaking at, and his county commission banned flock cameras. They would not buy them. So the sheriff actually used his prison commissary funds, the money they make off of selling cigarettes and things to, prisoners, to ultimately pay for those Cameras. And so the law enforcement seems to be like rabidly trying to get these things in place before courts can kind of come down on them. I think there's very real security concerns here. Ultimately, I'm very proud of, I was a, you know, a crime reporter for years. I interviewed the families of, you know, dead officers who were killed because they were obeying some ridiculous protocol that ended up costing them their life. So I am extremely, you know, sensitive to the idea that police officers need every tool and every available way to protect themselves and bring criminals to justice. but we do have to draw a line somewhere. And constantly, surveillance that is clearly going to be unconstitutional at some point, being rolled out aggressively right now is a very dangerous thing. I think people are right to be very skeptical of what's going on here.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And calling this essentially a warrantless dragnet, I mean, makes sense because if I'm driving on a public road, I don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy or that no one or that an officer wouldn't see, see my license plate, you know, as I'm driving down the road. But what changes constitutionally, from what you're saying, is that when the government can record all of my movements, automatically aggregate them and then search them later, then at some point just mere observation in public becomes surveillance. And that's what we're talking about here.
Auron MacIntyre : Yeah. And of course a lot of people say, well, this is going to stop crime, this is going to stop crime. And my big issue with that assertion is that we already know who does crime and where the crime happens. Again, I've been a reporter in the criminal justice system. I'm aware, I've talked to dozens and dozens of officers and prosecutors and these kind of things. It's not a question of can we find criminals, do we have the evidence? The vast majority of time. The question is, are we actually willing to do anything with it? You know, we have plenty of evidence, for instance, of these teen takeovers that are happening all over the country, but especially in Florida. And in many cases the teens actually tape themselves. We don't need a flock camera. They literally have their phones out and are posting what they're doing on social media. They're running around, they're doing vandalism, they're breaking laws on the street. They're doing all kinds of things, harassing people, stealing. And we rarely see large follow up arrests. You know, hundreds and hundreds of, you know, black teens will show up to one of these events. They'll film themselves doing the crime, and then no one or very few people get arrested. It's not a question of surveillance. We know who's doing the crime. They're taping themselves, doing the crime. The problem is we're too scared to do the follow through. We're too scared of actually putting people through the criminal justice system, especially if they fall under certain categories that are politically offensive. And so to keep our stats down, our crime stats down, we don't arrest people, we don't actually bring real charges. We, argue them down. And even if they are convicted, we ultimately don't keep them in prison because that will look bad if we have the wrong people in prison for too long. So the problem is not one of technology. The problem is one of will. We simply don't have the political will to enforce the law. And until we solve that problem, I'm not ready to hand the state some kind of omnipresent understanding where every law abiding car is on the road. How about you arrest the criminals you know are doing crime first before we start just tagging random innocent people?
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and that's part of the here, that if algorithms are identifying, vehicles or potentially, you know, characterizing movement patterns and things as suspicious, I mean, this is kind of getting into the same territory, you know, as, as, as some of these constitutionally impermissible, stops just based on, you know, based on category. And so, you know, how do you keep the algorithm from, just targeting, you know, some of, some of what they perceive? And you can't go back and say, okay, did you have a reasonable belief? You can't really ask the algorithm why it identified, certain individuals or movements as suspicious. And so are we getting into a situation where we're basically allowing, you know, some of these categorical, stops by default?
Auron MacIntyre : Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that's, you know, the terrifying thing is you're taking any human agency out of the decision, and then who do you hold accountable? You know, if you have police officer falsely pulls someone over. Yeah, you might have to deal with that in the moment, but at least there's some kind of recourse. You can take that person to court, you know, you can bring a lawsuit. There are options for you to actually target the person who's responsible for that unjust act when it's the algorithm. I mean, we've already seen how this happens all the time. Social media companies will ban people, they'll suspend people, they'll limit their reach, and then later on when it's revealed, they'll say, oh, well, we didn't know the algorithm did it. We didn't realize there's some bug. That's what actually happened. We can't be held responsible. We'll fix it, but there's no one to blame. It's just a glitch in the system.
Jenna: I think AI is going to be a disaster for privacy
Well, we're talking about court cases, we're talking about police officers. There's no longer just, ah, oh, you couldn't post on Facebook even though that's bad enough. Now it's a, you were pulled over, maybe you went to jail, you know, maybe there was an adverse you know, interaction and something terrible happened that never would have arisen if it hadn't been for this algorithm targeting you. There's just a whole host of liability issues here that are completely unaddressed. And this is one of the things again that I'm just most concerned about. We have a technology here that people have simply not thought through the ramifications of. And we're spending hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars nationwide to roll out a system and put it in place before any of these questions have been answered by the courts. We're clearly just outracing the legal framework for this and I think it's going to be a disaster. I mean one of the scenarios we could get here is ultimately all these municipalities spend hundreds of millions or billions of dollars installing these cameras and then every one of them has to rip it out or leave them completely, you know, non functioning because the courts say these are entirely unconstitutional and all of that time and money is entirely wasted.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and hopefully they say they're unconstitutional. And profiling was the word I couldn't quite think of earlier. And you know this, we don't know if AI is going to start profiling in an unconstitutional manner. And you know, for most of American history, practical limitations on government surveillance provided, you know, a kind of privacy even when the Constitution didn't explicitly require it. And privacy shouldn't just evolve where we don't have any just because of technology or you know, this kind of Big Brother social media view. But it's a question we're going to have to continue to ask Ana, Orin McIntyre really appreciate it. Follow him on X can always reach me and my team. Jenna.afr.net. Preborn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com afr.
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Jenna Ellis: I love talking about the things of God. Because of truth and the biblical worldview, the U.S. constitution obligates our government to preserve and protect the rights that our founders recognize come from God our creator, not our government. I believe that scripture in the Bible is very clear that God is the one that raised up each of you. And God has allowed us to be brought here to this specific moment in time. This is Jenna Ellis in the morning.
The Lindsay Clancy murder trial is one step closer to potential mistrial
Jenna Ellis: Good morning. It is Thursday, September 3, and the Lindsay Clancy jury may be deadlocked. And, the judge may be on the brink of declaring a mistrial after the judge gives the deadlocked jury a last resort charge after they can't reach a verdict. And so this coming from the NewSong York Post, the high profile Lindsey Clancy murder trial is one step closer, closer to potential mistrial after the judge issued a last resort order. When jurors announced for a second time, late yesterday, they were deadlocked. The jurors are nine women and three men. That's all that we know about them. so jury selection of Wadir was not, of course, televised for their protection. They haven't been sequestered, which is interesting, to note. But they sent the judge a, note yesterday that they were still at an impasse about whether, to convict Lindsay Clancy a first degree murder for strangling her three young children or, a guilty on one of those lesser included charges or find her not criminally responsible or, at at worst, in my opinion, completely not guilty. So, let's welcome in Ron Coleman who is an attorney and host of the Coleman Nation for more on this. And, Ron, how close do you think that the judge actually is from declaring a mistrial? Because it's only been a week yet the jury's come back twice saying we just can't resolve this. I think it's today or bust.
Jenna Ellis: All right, well, that's about as specific as you can get. I think so too. I mean this is, this, this advisement is basically the judge going back to the jury and saying, you know, don't m. Don't resolve this trial by losing your convictions or just trying to compromise. But at the same time you can talk to each other. Deliberation is what the jury is supposed to, to do. And so, you know, listen to each other and you know, you're here in order to reach a verdict. So basically, please, please, please try.
Christian: I think a mistrial is best outcome for the prosecution this time
So, what, you know, you've been, in a number of situations in front of juries. I have on, you know, the prosecution and the defense side. And it's always, there's always the worst point, for the lawyers trial to just sit around and wait for the jury. if this is a mistrial, do you think that it is better, for the defense or for the prosecution going into a second trial?
Ron Coleman: I think it's, it just might be. I was looking at this from all the way in northern NewSong Jersey, but it looks to me as if short of a, short of a guilty, verdict, this is the best outcome for the prosecution because they get to, they get to do it right this time. I mean, the problem is the jury pool. I'm not, I don't believe there was any serious lack of preparation or but whatever didn't go right the first time, they, they've got another shot at it. And there are no, there aren't going to be any surprises left in terms of, approaches, strategies, tactics that could be used by the defense. I do think this judge has let the defense lawyer get away with some really outrageous stuff in terms of comments that he's made, referring to the prosecution in front of the jury. I imagine the judge is going to be this. Well, actually, no, now that I think about it, I was about to say the judge is the judge. You can't really, can't really redo that. But the fact is, I just had a judge yesterday learn a little bit. I don't want to go through the details, but he tried, he tried to get tough with, a certain lawyer who's been practicing long enough to not let it happen. I do think the judge might say, I'm going to run a little bit tighter ship this time because I don't need another mistrial. It's got to be done right.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And that, you know, I mean, there weren't really, legal issues or, you know, things that, arose for a mistrial. I mean, it's just the, the obvious guess. And of course we haven't talked to the jury. we don't know their thinking but if they're anything like the court of public opinion, it's that there are just so extreme differences on how the public is perceiving this case. I mean, on one hand you have people like me who say, even if the defense story and the psychosis and all of that is 100% accurate and you can prove all of that, it doesn't matter. she should be criminally responsible because of the preparation that was shown, because of, methodically, ah, strangling her kids over the course of 18 minutes. She should have criminal responsibility. And then on the, on the other side of that are the people who are sympathetic towards her and saying, well, she reached out for help and, and they believe that the psychosis should excuse her. And I think they're under a little bit of misperception, thinking that, you know, she's going to stay super long term in some kind of mental health facility if, she ends up being found not criminally responsible, but postpartum psychosis, neither side is alleging that that's still continuing. but my point is both sides of the court of public opinion are very staunchly, embedded in their sides. And if that's what this jury is, and you have even one person on one polar opposite side who refuses to give up any ground, then that leads to a deadlock. And so regardless of how streamlined or, you know, or better perhaps the prosecution is in laying out their facts, I think they didn't predict, that the public would be so sympathetic toward Lindsey Clancy. And so if they, kind of step up their game a little bit, I'm not really sure that that would make a difference in the second trial.
Ron Coleman: Right. I think we all agree there's no way to be sure. But I do think that if I were the judge, what I would be thinking is, clearly there are some jurors who have let their emotions sway them, their sympathy. And I think we can both agree that, you know, you as a Christian are very focused on mercy and loving your fellow man. there has been an epidemic of empathy that has prevented our society from recognizing right and wrong. And it, we're seeing it as, you know, we're seeing violent criminals across the system being repeatedly given another, Another chance, being, having empathy and sympathy and pity extended to them and take advantage of that. I'm not worried that she's going to kill more children, although that's happened in similar situations. But whether or not she is going to be appropriately punished for this outrage, I mean, this should not be A five hour deliberation, much less a five day deliberation.
Jenna Ellis: Yes.
Ron Coleman: This is utterly insane. So the only thing I would think the judge could do differently, believe it or not, I started out responding to your comment. the only thing I can see doing differently is trying to keep the emotional stuff, the hard tugging stuff more on leash and the, you know, the, the demonization of the prosecution here, but is got to be a factor that the judge has to think has had some impact on this deliberation.
Jenna Ellis: But do you think that that that ship has sailed in the sense that this has become such a nationwide public trial that you know, the next jury certainly would have seen public coverage and I mean I don't know anyone who doesn't have a very strong opinion on this. So how could we even get to another impartial jury that, that could be seated in a case like this?
Ron Coleman: That's a great question. I don't know. But the system demands that we try. And there have been many cases where it looked impossible, but it has happened. I mean the judge definitely has to worry that anything, any misstep by him, any attempt to cut corners in order to prevent another deadlock jury will result in a, an error that will result in reversal because we know there's going to be an appeal there. but this is why he gets the medium sized bucks.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, yeah. And I mean the system does demand it. But whether or not that's that's really practically possible, I mean if I lived in that jurisdiction and was called as, as a juror, I would, I would have to honestly say there I can't be impartial because what I've seen, and the trial being fully televised, I mean it's, it's, it's a lot of people are following this. I mean I know several friends of mine personally who've literally watched every moment of the trial on you know, Court TV and, and all of that, to say, you know, I know about this, this case and I already have an opinion and that's not going to to be changed regardless of what, what a second trial brings out. because you know, yes, while Christians are are called to to love each other, you know, all of the one another's in scripture and mercy is part of the attributes of. And and the, and Romans 13 talks about the government, ah, carrying the sword, or that metaphor for justice and for swift ah, punishment for evildoers and to promote good in society and restrain evil. And this woman's actions were clearly evil. And I don't buy, any of these excuses. And I've said, Ron Coleman, my special guest this morning, I've said throughout this process that I don't actually think that, the insanity defense should be able to be used as broadly as it now, you know, currently has been in the United States. I think that all of this should only be relevant at. As mitigation, at sentencing, or potentially as part of a plea agreement. do we as a society have an obligation, you know, regardless of the outcome of this particular trial, it's raised the question, in society about the insanity defense. Do we have an obligation to revisit that and to perhaps legislate accordingly?
Ron Coleman: You're making a fantastic point. We have clinicalized all of behavior in our society. No one is to blame for anything. For his failures, for his condition, for his drug addiction, for his obesity. Everything is a matter of brain chemicals or, I'm, depraved because I was deprived. And this is the logical and, by the way, world events, our ability to, You know, I'm not justifying. I'm just explaining. When you explain, there is always a shadow of justification. and we see that outrageous immoral acts have become justified by our culture, and now here we are. It is absolutely heartbreaking. And, you know, there is simply, literally no greater earthly love than a mother for her children. And a woman who will go this far and do what she did, regardless of what her brain chemicals or the voices in her head are telling her to do, simply does not belong in our society anymore. Period.
Jenna Ellis: Oh, 100%. 100%. And so if you're the prosecution right now and seeing the. The levels of sympathy and, and, you know, a lot of these people that are for, not guilty or not criminally responsible. Would you rather have a hung jury and a second bite at the apple, which might actually be a better bite? if the prosecution figures, out, you know, what went, what they could do better. Not necessarily what went wrong, but then also. And then also, if you are anticipating the judge potentially streamlining, things more. Would you rather have the hung jury, or a compromise verdict on a lesser offense?
Ron Coleman: I think if I'm the prosecution, if I could get a compromise vertical in Western events, I'd probably take it. I think you got to take it. And, there's a, you know, that's the difference between this world and the next world.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, Earthly justice versus the lordly justice.
Ron Coleman: But we can't achieve it. In this world.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. Yeah.
Ron Coleman: It's possible the jury is only deliberating on degree of guilt
And so do you think then that it's possible that instead of, you know. Because I think, I think the media. And we're all just speculating on what the jury is potentially thinking again, because, no one has interviewed them and I hope if there is a mistrial, that the judge does pull the jurors so that we get an understanding of, where this jury was at. there's been speculation, of course, that it's, you know, all three of the men that are for the first degree murder and it's the women categorically that are for Lindsey Clancy. that may be the case, but, but we don't know about these particular, impanel jurors. it could be the exact opposite or it could be a spl. we have no idea. But, Is it possible that the jury is only deliberating on the degree of guilt? I personally think that's a little less likely just because they could probably, if everybody's saying, yes, she's guilty of something, that or she's guilty here, we're just figuring out if it's first degree versus manslaughter. that probably wouldn't lead them to such an impasse. that's just my perception. What do you think?
Ron Coleman: I think that's as good a perception as any. I mean, as you pointed out, we don't really know what's going on inside the jury room. People have read the tea leaves and come to certain conclusions. There seems to be a sort of, consensus that there are two female jurors who are the holdouts, the m ones wearing pink. Who knows? Who really knows? Juries are black boxes. They're frightening.
Jenna Ellis: Yes, yes. And, you know, and that just underscores, I think, the point that, because of how unprincipled society has become in a lot of ways, we, have always said that, conservatives and you know, attorneys in general have always said, you know, this is not an imperfect system. System, but it's the best worldwide. And the constitutionally protected right to a jury of your peers is part of the hallmark of due process. when we have situations like this and we're seeing, I mean, all of these people outside the courtroom, these crazy women who are, who are suggesting all sorts of, you know, potential harm to their own kids and, the tick tock women, you know, all of these things, they could have been the ones on the jury, potential or a future jury. And that's very frightening. So do we contemplate as a society as well, revisiting the standards for juries. I mean I don't think we're going to overhaul the system entirely, you know, anything like a professional jury, which I've advocated for. That was actually my, my third, year law school. capstone paper. But ironically enough. And but do we, do we revisit perhaps, some qualifications for jurors? I mean, you know, it's a very bare minimum of what can actually the type of person that can actually be seated on a jury.
Ron Coleman: Well, the biggest problem is that the best qualified jurors are the ones who don't end up on juries. They don't report, they get excused because of unavoidable. And it's. I've seen judges excuse people, you know, during voir dire, for the most unbelievable things. And I'd also seen judges ruin multi billion dollar mergers and acquisitions, because that someone said that they were working on. They had to be in London next week and then said no, you're going on the jury. And then I got the case dismissed after the plaintiffs, after plaintiff's case was closed.
Jenna Ellis: Oh wow.
Ron Coleman: Didn't even get to the jury deliberate.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, yeah.
Ron Coleman: And the system is really imperfect, but it's constitutional right.
Jenna Ellis: And I think that's the point here, with everybody who is frustrated looking at this and saying, as I have, you know, that, and as you have Ron Coleman, that this really shouldn't be a deliberation that lasted even, you know, five minutes in my opinion. but this is the system as imperfect as it is. And so I do anticipate as well that a mistrial is coming either today or tomorrow. if the jury can't return a verdict, it'll be interesting to see if they end up being able to come together. It has to be unanimous. but the question of, you know, where do we go from here as a society is a big one. And it's been sparked by this, this trial I think in ways that we need to wrestle with as a society. Society. So really appreciate the legal insight. We're going to be talking about this more, but we will be right back with more here on Jenna Ellis in the morning.
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Orin McIntyre: The Lindsey Clancy case raises fundamental questions about morality
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. And as we're continuing to talk about the Lindsey Clancy case, with which, all of America is talking about, regardless of what this jury ultimately decides or whether it is a mistrial that is declared and the process starts all over again and there is potentially a resolution or a second trial, the bigger conversation is what we need to continue to discuss because underneath all of the testimony and the competing experts and the legal standards and all of this is the fundamental question what makes a human being morally responsible for what he or she does? and that can be answered, of course, in light of scripture, that we have agency, we make choices, we can understand right from wrong. And because we are moral actors, society can and should justly hold us accountable when we deliberately harm another human being or even act, in recklessness, you know, which, the standard of course is that your actions could reasonably foresee, that harm would occur to another person even if you didn't, intend it. And the excuses and justifications, of course, for what would otherwise be criminal acts have been solid in the, the criminal justice system, for, for even before the founding of America. I mean these are things that, that go all the way back through civil society through the ages that you know, of course self defense, of course if you are, if you are saving another, you know, there, there are multiple ways that that, that you are not necessarily responsible for what would otherwise be a criminal act. or if for example, and this is not what is, is being alleged here at all. But let's say that that Lindsey Clancy was being given these, these drugs, by her medical provider without her knowled directly and specifically caused these acts. Well, we would contemplate that a little bit differently. But she knew, she knew the possibility and was, was herself willing to take these drugs even, regardless of the consequences, and regardless of the labels that, that say, you know, these are potential side effects and all of those things. So we're not in that category. but the, but the bottom line of what makes a person morally responsible for what he or she does, I think we are blurring the line as a society in a way that is incredibly damaging. And so let's welcome in Orin McIntyre, who's a host at the Blaze, frequent guest here, and always appreciate philosophizing, with him.
Oren Robinson: Response to the Lindsey Clancy trial has been disturbing
So Oren, it's been very disturbing to say the least, to see some of the response to the Clancy trial, that while on one hand, some I can understand, even though I don't, I don't share it, I can understand the sympathy, for Lindsey Clancy. but at the same time to think that it is, it is a justification or an excuse in society, this, this cannot occur and we still have a well ordered or moral and upright society if this is where we're headed.
Auron MacIntyre : Yeah, you know, obviously it's not a one to one, but really, this reminds me a lot of their reaction, after Charlie Kirk died in the sense that everyone is looking around and they can't believe that this is something their neighbor would say, that this is something that they would, you know, admit out loud that they have these sympathy, sympathies or these feelings. You know, Lindsey Clancy is a cold blooded murderer. She absolutely slaughtered her three children one by one, slowly and methodically, with predetermined, you know, she, she had a plan. Sitting her husband across town, the whole nine yards. Nothing about this was accidental or impulsive. It wasn't some takeover of immediate emotions. It's not like she turned around and stabbed the kids with a knife while she was cooking or something because she was so overwhelmed. She methodically planned this from the beginning. And yet we see a large number of women, not all women, in the same way that not all Democrats were celebrating, you know, Charlie Kirk's death. But a disturbing percentage of women seem willing to go online and say, yes, I support this woman. I feel for this woman. She's justified in some way, or actually her husband did it in some kind of Candace Owens conspiracy style way, where actually he was, you know, instructing her somehow to do it the whole time, or he did it himself. I mean, the theories are absolutely wild. And so it creates this very surreal moment where people wonder, you know, is this really the opinion that some women have about, you know, what's going on, that another woman could just somehow have a justification to murder her own children, or she's somehow not culpable, or actually her husband did it even though her own attorney is admitting that she did it in the trial. It's not even up for debate. And so I think this is just a stunning moment for a lot of people. It's very clear that some percentage of women on Tik Tok and Instagram are kind of trapped in some social media loop where they can convince themselves of absolutely outrageous things. and it's, I think it's disturbing to everybody who's watching it even many, many women just stunned about what's going on here.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And you make such a good point that, you know, this isn't a close call. This isn't a case that we're having this conversation because there are factors that, you know, go in one direction or the other. And so we're. We're having to see, you know, where the line is and draw the line very carefully because this case is right on the edge. I mean, this is something that is just so clear with, the facts and the, And the standards that should be in the law here that I think, so many of us who are seeing this biblically and rationally are saying, you know, this shouldn't be a close call. but where do we go as a society when we're continuing to see more and more extreme instances of people who want to justify really heinous evil acts for a variety of reasons? whether that's, you know, the defense, in the Charlie Kirk case, you know, talking in open court about how, you know, Charlie had hateful speech, which, of course is not true. That's the perception. but was essentially asserting that as fact and somehow trying to mitigate, Tyler Robinson's actions by suggesting that if you don't like what another person says, you can perpetuate a crime on them. I mean, this is just something. These are things that have been so rigid as principles in Western civilization for eons that we're starting to see that foundation crumble, and it's really alarming.
Auron MacIntyre : Well, the obvious through line here is that there are certain groups that are considered victimized in our society. And there seems to be a belief among a disturbingly large percentage of our population that if anything happens to those groups, those preferred groups, they're always victims. They're never the perpetrator. Obviously, we've seen this, with black Americans. Whether you look at the, you know, O.J. simpson case, where a jury kind of clearly let a guilty man go just because he was black, and they were worried about what that might do to their city, their responses that might happen if he was found guilty, or what they. How they might be targeted if he was found guilty. we've seen this response for people like Carmelo Anthony, who was allowed to raise, like, a million dollars for killing Austin Metcalfe, with many people justifying what he did, saying, well, once a white man says the N word, which we have no evidence that Austin Metcalf did at all, that's just a assertion, because they know it's a get out of jail free card. But the assertion was enough for people to say, oh, well, because someone said he might have said a word. I mean, this black kid can't be held responsible for what he does. And it seems the same as now being extended to a woman. Well, if a woman did something and she claims to be a victim, then she's a victim. And that's all there is to it. The man must have made her do it, or the man must have done it. There was some reason that she was compelled, that was out of her control. It seems almost like there's an assertion, a strange kind of Schrodinger's agency that exists. Where these subgroups of women or black men were told that they have agency. We're told that they are strong and independent. But then if they actually do something, well, it turns out actually everyone else is to blame. And maybe it turns out that everyone else failed them, the system failed them. That's what we've heard so much with Lindsey Clancy. And so we have to start making a decision. Either these groups are ultimately individuals who can be held accountable because they have agency, or they aren't. And then, we need to think about the way that we arrange our society. But what we can't do is be in a situation where we pretend these people have agency, and then the minute they do something, actually it's all a man's fault or it's white people's fault or something like that. Either women have the ability to make decisions and be held accountable for them, or they don't. And it's very strange that we have this moment where a large number of women are saying, well, she just can't be held accountable for the things she does.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And those are two absolutely incompatible worldviews. To have moral agency and then have, a the response that, that all a lot of these women are having to Lindsey Clancy, that she doesn't have moral agency because of extenuating factors. And those are the two competing worldviews. but also, as you mentioned, and I've talked about extensively on this show as well, with the cultural Marxism that comes into play, if you view, women as always the oppressed, then no matter what they do, it's always morally justified according to, that worldview, which we know, of course, is not compatible with true justice. And one other, argument that I've seen from, you know, those who are frustrated with all of the women that are trying to excuse Lindsey Clancy, is that the 19th Amendment should be repealed. which of course, you know, is the, the amendment that allowed women the right to vote and access that franchise. And I. I don't think that the 19th Amendment is the problem, here when we're talking about, feminism and, and you know, some of these incompatible worldviews, cultural Marxism and, And and you're talking about moral, you know, the lack of moral agency or, holding people responsible. Religious pluralism, I think, is more to blame here than the 19th Amendment. I'm not claiming that religious pluralism automatically produces feminism, but that secular feminism becomes culturally necessary once a society rejects a, shared religious account and a biblical or divine order. Ah, sex, marriage, family and human purpose. And so secular feminism didn't emerge simply because society began valuing women or, you know, quote unquote, equality, or even this kind of Marxist trend. Christianity already taught and still teaches that women's equal dignity is. It comes from God. And feminism emerged because religious pluralism displaced the biblical fact framework that gave sexual difference meaning. And so once society could no longer say what men and women are designed for, the difference between men and women, feminism reduced equality to sameness, of freedom, to autonomy in the female body, to a problem that the law, I think, and technology has to overcome. M. Because now we're seeing, you know, this kind of cultural Marxism that's embedded, including the necessity and right, in their view, of course, for abortion and for the lack of responsibility in a lot of these cases that deal with feminist issues.
Auron MacIntyre : Yeah, I mean, this is obviously a complicated topic, but I mean, you know, the 19th Amendment itself is at some level born out of a feminist movement. there were many anti suffragettes, many women who opposed the 19th Amendment, who specifically said they like it because they were afraid that it would tear apart families. That, the idea that families would vote differently, that spouses would vote differently, might cause serious ruptures in marriages and ultimately lead to a serious gender divide. I mean, there's a difficult, again, question over whether or not we think that ultimately this political rift is one that will, you know, keep the two genders apart. But when we look at our politics, it's increasingly clear that the genders are being treated as different voting blocs. And this is very dangerous. If you look at the voting in South Korea, you have basically a male party and a female party. And right now the fertility rate in South Korea is something like 0.7%. South Korea might not make it as long as North Korea at this point, which has a birth rate double that of South Korea. so there are real questions about what this does to a society well beyond whether women individually are capable of voting. That's not the question. It's, is this ultimately good for society? Does it create this rift? So did feminism cause this situation? Or did the proto feminism of separating men and women as voting blocks begin this journey? That's a chicken and the egg question that, again, is hard to ultimately answer. Women are obviously, by themselves capable of voting. But does this agitate society in a way that exacerbates a gender war? I think that's a question worth asking.
Many people are speculating that women have hung the jury in Lindsey Clancy case
That said, obviously, you know, women voting has nothing to do with how they feel about the Lindsey Clancy trial. More importantly, however, it does have something to do with jury. Many people are speculating, and I think in some cases it's been confirmed that it's women who have hung the jury, that it's ultimately women who, won't find Lindsey Clancy guilty, who are holding up to trial. And if that's the case, then we have a very serious issue on our hands, because, you know, we've seen the same thing when, again, when it comes to African Americans who are far more likely to say, I will not convict another African American under any circumstances, whether I think the evidence is there or not, if women are seeing themselves as a similar identity group that needs to band together and stand for each other in all times and all places, instead of objectively looking at a case and being able to render a verdict, well, then we do have a real problem. Like, then our, theoretical question of chicken the egg becomes something really tangible. Because if we can't get fair trials in the United States, because women will always stand up, for women, and black people will always stand up for black people, then we don't have trials. We have tribalism. And our system is not built to be able to handle this. We built a jury system on the idea that people would be able to evaluate this question. And if women as a block, are working with each other to make sure that no woman is convicted, well, you know, then we're obviously in a place where, all of this has gone off the rails. Like fundamental parts of our system break down.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And so much more to be said on this. We've got to take a break here. But, you know, you raised some really serious points that, the. The presumption, the underlying presumption of our jury system is that people will be more faithful adherence to the principles of justice than they will to tribalism. And this is where cultural Marxism has an effect. And it has consequences in society. And it's not just for women, you know, for, for African Americans. It's not for you know, just those categories. It's if you have you know, any sort of tribalist mentality, you know, if Republicans are only always defending Republicans, all of these things, whatever your tribalistic adherence is, if you have that over principle in any context, but especially a criminal justice system, then it no longer becomes a just or a moral and upright society. And these are things we're going to have to continue to deal with. But Oren, McIntyre, thanks so much. You're sticking with me through the break. We will be right back with more.
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Flock cameras are triggering nationwide backlash over privacy concerns and police abuse
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. Well, as we continue into this brave new world on in a lot of different philosophical questions, moral questions, we are also talking about privacy versus catching criminals. Obviously we know that the state, and legitimate law enforcement is necessary for the public safety and for the advancement of course of promoting good, restraining evil. But the question that is being raised by flock cameras can't be ignored because this is triggering nationwide backlash over privacy concerns and police abuse. So Orin McIntyre from the Blaze is still with me on the program to talk about this. And these are essentially surveillance, a huge surveillance infrastructure. And we've already seen Instances where these have been abused, by law enforcement for, to follow or to, look at people. In like one instance was a police officer who used some of these searches, to try to find, an ex girlfriend and traced her license plate, you know, something over a hundred times. I mean, so there's instances like that. But then there have also been instances of these, flock cameras misidentifying license plates. And, you know, there was a story that a man was pulled over and had to show the cops and justify that this wasn't a stolen vehicle. So, you know, in a wide variety of ways of flock cameras are, being discouraged by some who. And I think by mainly the conservative movement because of privacy issues, but companies are still pushing for it. So, where do you see the line of controversy here and, what's going on with flock cameras?
Auron MacIntyre : Well, obviously we just had governor desantis say that we're no longer be using them on state highways and interstate, that kind of thing. And I think he's reading the room and recognizing that there's a lot of concern about what's going on here. Obviously, license plate reading cameras have been around for a long time. That's not something new. What the flock cameras do is introduce the AI component. It runs all of these, pictures through a database and basically allows them to be searched in real time. If you have an extensive enough network of these cameras, you basically have a real time map of every car that is on the road, in your city, in your municipality. Now, the supreme court has said that for the police to track a, a vehicle with something like gps, you need a warrant. You have a fourth amendment right. And, you know, they have to go to the court in order to get that. They have to prove, that you're worth tracking in this manner. There is no such restriction for flock cameras, Even though they're functionally doing the same thing. They're providing a live GPS style update where every car is on the road, Even though no one has been issued a warrant to do this. basically they're cheating through the fact that this technology is too new, to have any judge rulings on it. And law enforcement is rolling this out all over the country. I know in some places, in fact, I spoke to one county commissioner here recently at an event I was speaking at, and his county commission banned flock cameras. They would not buy them. So the sheriff actually used his prison commissary funds, the money they make off of selling cigarettes and things to, prisoners, to ultimately pay for those Cameras. And so the law enforcement seems to be like rabidly trying to get these things in place before courts can kind of come down on them. I think there's very real security concerns here. Ultimately, I'm very proud of, I was a, you know, a crime reporter for years. I interviewed the families of, you know, dead officers who were killed because they were obeying some ridiculous protocol that ended up costing them their life. So I am extremely, you know, sensitive to the idea that police officers need every tool and every available way to protect themselves and bring criminals to justice. but we do have to draw a line somewhere. And constantly, surveillance that is clearly going to be unconstitutional at some point, being rolled out aggressively right now is a very dangerous thing. I think people are right to be very skeptical of what's going on here.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And calling this essentially a warrantless dragnet, I mean, makes sense because if I'm driving on a public road, I don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy or that no one or that an officer wouldn't see, see my license plate, you know, as I'm driving down the road. But what changes constitutionally, from what you're saying, is that when the government can record all of my movements, automatically aggregate them and then search them later, then at some point just mere observation in public becomes surveillance. And that's what we're talking about here.
Auron MacIntyre : Yeah. And of course a lot of people say, well, this is going to stop crime, this is going to stop crime. And my big issue with that assertion is that we already know who does crime and where the crime happens. Again, I've been a reporter in the criminal justice system. I'm aware, I've talked to dozens and dozens of officers and prosecutors and these kind of things. It's not a question of can we find criminals, do we have the evidence? The vast majority of time. The question is, are we actually willing to do anything with it? You know, we have plenty of evidence, for instance, of these teen takeovers that are happening all over the country, but especially in Florida. And in many cases the teens actually tape themselves. We don't need a flock camera. They literally have their phones out and are posting what they're doing on social media. They're running around, they're doing vandalism, they're breaking laws on the street. They're doing all kinds of things, harassing people, stealing. And we rarely see large follow up arrests. You know, hundreds and hundreds of, you know, black teens will show up to one of these events. They'll film themselves doing the crime, and then no one or very few people get arrested. It's not a question of surveillance. We know who's doing the crime. They're taping themselves, doing the crime. The problem is we're too scared to do the follow through. We're too scared of actually putting people through the criminal justice system, especially if they fall under certain categories that are politically offensive. And so to keep our stats down, our crime stats down, we don't arrest people, we don't actually bring real charges. We, argue them down. And even if they are convicted, we ultimately don't keep them in prison because that will look bad if we have the wrong people in prison for too long. So the problem is not one of technology. The problem is one of will. We simply don't have the political will to enforce the law. And until we solve that problem, I'm not ready to hand the state some kind of omnipresent understanding where every law abiding car is on the road. How about you arrest the criminals you know are doing crime first before we start just tagging random innocent people?
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and that's part of the here, that if algorithms are identifying, vehicles or potentially, you know, characterizing movement patterns and things as suspicious, I mean, this is kind of getting into the same territory, you know, as, as, as some of these constitutionally impermissible, stops just based on, you know, based on category. And so, you know, how do you keep the algorithm from, just targeting, you know, some of, some of what they perceive? And you can't go back and say, okay, did you have a reasonable belief? You can't really ask the algorithm why it identified, certain individuals or movements as suspicious. And so are we getting into a situation where we're basically allowing, you know, some of these categorical, stops by default?
Auron MacIntyre : Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that's, you know, the terrifying thing is you're taking any human agency out of the decision, and then who do you hold accountable? You know, if you have police officer falsely pulls someone over. Yeah, you might have to deal with that in the moment, but at least there's some kind of recourse. You can take that person to court, you know, you can bring a lawsuit. There are options for you to actually target the person who's responsible for that unjust act when it's the algorithm. I mean, we've already seen how this happens all the time. Social media companies will ban people, they'll suspend people, they'll limit their reach, and then later on when it's revealed, they'll say, oh, well, we didn't know the algorithm did it. We didn't realize there's some bug. That's what actually happened. We can't be held responsible. We'll fix it, but there's no one to blame. It's just a glitch in the system.
Jenna: I think AI is going to be a disaster for privacy
Well, we're talking about court cases, we're talking about police officers. There's no longer just, ah, oh, you couldn't post on Facebook even though that's bad enough. Now it's a, you were pulled over, maybe you went to jail, you know, maybe there was an adverse you know, interaction and something terrible happened that never would have arisen if it hadn't been for this algorithm targeting you. There's just a whole host of liability issues here that are completely unaddressed. And this is one of the things again that I'm just most concerned about. We have a technology here that people have simply not thought through the ramifications of. And we're spending hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars nationwide to roll out a system and put it in place before any of these questions have been answered by the courts. We're clearly just outracing the legal framework for this and I think it's going to be a disaster. I mean one of the scenarios we could get here is ultimately all these municipalities spend hundreds of millions or billions of dollars installing these cameras and then every one of them has to rip it out or leave them completely, you know, non functioning because the courts say these are entirely unconstitutional and all of that time and money is entirely wasted.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and hopefully they say they're unconstitutional. And profiling was the word I couldn't quite think of earlier. And you know this, we don't know if AI is going to start profiling in an unconstitutional manner. And you know, for most of American history, practical limitations on government surveillance provided, you know, a kind of privacy even when the Constitution didn't explicitly require it. And privacy shouldn't just evolve where we don't have any just because of technology or you know, this kind of Big Brother social media view. But it's a question we're going to have to continue to ask Ana, Orin McIntyre really appreciate it. Follow him on X can always reach me and my team. Jenna.afr.net. Preborn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com afr.
Jenna Ellis discusses the ongoing high-profile trial of Lindsey Clancy, exploring the complexities of moral responsibility and public perception surrounding the case. Joined by attorney Ron Coleman, they delve into the implications of a potential mistrial, the dynamics of jury deliberation, and the societal questions raised by the defense's arguments. Auron MacIntyre also stops by to talk about Flock Cameras
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