Transcript

American Family Radio thanks sponsor Preborn for supporting pro life advocacy

Dr. Jessica Peck: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection and the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound 250 and say the keyword BABY or visit preborn.com/AFR hello

 : and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends, and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. Hey listen, you've been hearing me talk about the ACTIVATE Summit that's going to be happening in July in Tupelo, Mississippi. I am going to be one of the speakers for this summit. We're talking about issues of marriage and family. We have been featuring a lot of the other speakers we had Laura Petherbridge talking about blended families. I'll be talking about AI and how it's impacting child development, especially their biblical worldview. If you want to Register, go to afa.netsummit we would love to see you there. And we're going to be tackling some tough topics at that summit, but we're tackling a really tough topic today, but one that I feel convicted to lean into.

This episode will discuss mature themes related to gender identity and addiction

Before we even begin today's conversation, I do want to give you a content advisory and advise you that I do advise listener discretion. For this episode, we will be talking about mature themes related to gender identity and addiction and abuse and personal struggle. And these topics are not suitable for younger audiences. I encourage parents to be discerning, but I also want to be clear. Today I'm sharing one person's story, one lived experience, and one set of circumstances. It's not a blanket statement, a universal template, and not a reduction of really complex human experiences. But our goal today is to listen well and to ultimately submit all things to the authority of God's word. And I invite you to prayerfully consider what you hear today. And I invite you and challenge you specifically to pray and ask the Lord to guide your heart, your understanding and your response. We all know that we are living in a moment where conversations around identity, truth and belonging are no longer theoretical or far away. These issues are deeply personal, highly visible, and often painfully divisive as we see people struggling in our church community and our neighborhoods and, and just the places where we live, work and play. And for many faith based communities and churches and Christian families and Christian individuals, there's this real tension of how do we hold firmly to biblical truth while also extending Christlike compassion. And too often the church has been accused of choosing one at the expense of the other. Compromising truth to appear, loving or delivering truth in ways that feel anything but loving. But meanwhile there are real people with real circumstances in real time who are navigating identity and pain and confusion. The issues, these are not just statistics. These are real people made in the image of God. And these, they have stories to tell that are marked by longing and searching and hurt and a desire to be seen and known and loved. And today's conversation is about understanding a story, one woman's story, and asking what it reveals about God, about people, and about how we can walk alongside others in a very complicated world.

Jessica introduces us to Kyla Gillespie, author of Transformed

Today I'm bringing to you Kyla Gillespie. She is an international speaker and a ministry leader and the founder of Renewed and Transformed Ministries. In her book Transformed, she shares her personal journey through gender dysphoria and same sex attraction, addiction, medical transition and ultimately detransitioning as she returned to her faith in Christ. Her story is deeply personal, spiritually complex, and today we approach it not as a formula, but as a testimony to listen to with humility and discernment. Kyla, I'm so glad to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us today and giving us the gift of your time.

Kyla Gillespie: Hi Jessica, So excited to be here with you today. thank you for having me. It's an honor.

You've shared your story with remarkable authenticity in your new book

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Kyla, we're just going to dive into your story. You know, that's really what your book is about. You've shared your story with remarkable authenticity. And I told you before we started, I read it through in one sitting. I really couldn't put it down just reading about your experience and I'm sure that it was so difficult, you know, for you to share and you even share about some of that in the book. So, so I would love for you just to, let's start at the beginning. Just take us back to your childhood. And you had some early experiences that really shaped your sense of identity very early on. Can you share with us a little bit about that?

Kyla Gillespie: Yeah. So I was born in 1980 and I grew up in Vancouver, BC, Canada, on an island about two hours from Vancouver, downtown Vancouver, BC and there I grew up in a Christian home. It was amazing at a Very, very young age. I just had faith like a child. I love Jesus and I love Sunday school. I loved everything about it. and I was actually the second child and the first girl born to my family. And I wanted to be exactly like my brother and my younger cousin who was male and, and my dad mostly. I really looked up to him. But there was two particular moments in my childhood when I really realized, for the first time, without any language back in the 80s, or even being five years old, not understanding gender or sexuality at the time, but just knowing I felt different. And one was, my parents had put me in figure skating and my family was big in hockey. And so they thought maybe this would be a good sport for me and it's a great sport. However, this one fateful Saint, Patrick's Day, I remember sitting on a cold bench in the lobby of a rink and I looked around and I saw all my buddies, all my boyfriends, really like guy friends and my parents pulled out of this garment bag, a fluffy, itchy green tutu. And I was devastated. Now of course, I don't remember exactly all the motion and feelings and what I was thinking, but I just looked around and the guys were wearing these beautiful, nice, green tuxedos with a bow tie. And I wished that I was normal like them. And that's odd for a five year old to feel like, why can't I just be normal like the boys around me? And so that imprinted a moment where I remember that I felt different from most little girls. And then there was another moment after crying and begging my parents to put me in hockey like my older brother and my cousin, they finally let me. And within a few months of playing, my parents sat me down again on a cold rink bench in the lobby and said, kyla, we've been asked by parents and coaches that you start changing in a different dressing room. And I was really confused. I knew that I, in that moment was different from boys. Really set in. but as a child you kind of just put those in your back pocket and you continue to go on in your life. But those were two imprinted moments in my childhood. I felt different than those little girls.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you know Kyla, it's not lost on me. You said you were born in 1980. Now I married a hockey player myself and I, very familiar with the story of Miracle. I've probably seen that movie 14,000 times. My husband tells me, you know, he'll, he will still cry when he watches that. So thinking about you Know the environment, the time that you were growing up in, growing up in Canada, how, you know, prevalent hockey is in the culture, having that your older brother, all of those things, you know, and then hearing you share your experiences like that, that imprinted you on childhood.

You grew up in a Christian home, and something deeply traumatic happened

The other things that imprinted you where I think in reading your book, I think it's really impossible to understate when you said you grew up in a Christian home. I mean, you were like the Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, like your parents, like, led. You were there all the time. You worked out all these acts of faith, you prayed together as a family. Like, that was all there. But then there was also something in your childhood that, that was really deeply traumatic. That happened when your parents came to you one day and told you, shared with you the devastating news they were getting a divorce. And I can see, like, that, that set a trajectory, didn't it?

Kyla Gillespie: Yes, it did. So here we were, like you said, ah, you know, quintessential Christian family, perfect family. As you would speak on the outside. my mom and dad were, well, you know, entrenched into the church, and the church was amazing. we had lots of people that we would call aunt and uncles within the church, and that was just the closeness of our church. But that moment when they sat me down and told me that they were going to get separated and divorced eventually, that just really broke our family. It. Because of how it changed my life and my, my family's life. So my brother is about three and a half years old. he was older, so he moved out. And so I was without my brother. And then my mom moved into a basement for a little while, our basement. And it was just like, it wasn't the same. My mom stopped going to church, and she ended up marrying within a year, an unbeliever. And this was devastating. It wasn't something that we had ever experienced. There was no, never any alcohol within our house. And now there was that introduced into my mom's life and, just that separation between our families. We did do some family stuff together to try to make it seem like we were still part of a family, but it was just never the same after that.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, I will. I will tell you that you shared with such remarkable authenticity, and you shared quite a few details of that in your book. And, and I just felt heartbroken for you watching this, you know, just how much it impacted you and seeing that you, you know, the pain that your father experienced, the pain that your mother experienced, the pain that your brother experienced. I Mean, it was, it was just hurtful and just deeply disruptive. It seems like, like what you had viewed as such a solid foundation, your faith that was there and, and your engagement with your church. And all of a sudden like everything felt topsy turvy. And so you have that trauma that you're dealing with. You have severe gender dysphoria that you've already shared with us. That's about. And you mentioned, Kyla, that, you know, you didn't have alcohol in your house before the divorce, but after the divorce you had some exposure to that. And really in reading your story, addiction is such a big part of that. And one of the things that you said, I'm reading straight out of your book here, you said drinking numbed me and allowed me to escape from my pain. It became my second favorite coping mechanism of choice next to self sabotage. And that really, you know, I think that people can relate to that because when they start to struggle and really, you know, so much of what you experienced, you were really feeling kind of alone and isolated. And so you look to numb the pain.

Can you talk to us a little bit about addiction and how the internal conflicts overlapped?

Can you talk to us a little bit about addiction and how the internal conflicts, you know, just overlapped with that?

Kyla Gillespie: Yeah. Just to give a little context. So my dad ended up getting married about a year later after my mom and she, he married a woman from our church. And she had five kids. And so everything, everything changed within that dynamic. I now had to choose who I wanted to live with full time. And you know, I was always a peacemaker around my home. I always tried to, love both my mom and dad equally. But in the choice that I, to make at 14 years old was impossible to love both of them at the same time equally in that moment. So I ended up choosing my mom. And I would go back and forth on weekends to my dad, dad's, house. But my dad and I's relationship started to change as he, embraced that new family. And so addiction came in after being years and years, well, quite a few years of wrestling with gender identity and sexuality, in youth group, noticing that other people were attracted to the opposite sex. But that wasn't the case for me. I ended up being attracted to a really close girlfriend of mine. And I started to notice that, these unwanted feelings and thoughts. I would ask God and cry out to him every night that he would take those away. But that's not part of my story right now. And so as I was growing in hockey, it became my passion and I pursued it and I ended up moving to Calgary, Alberta to train with the Canadian national program, the feeder system for Team Canada. And there I was met with a bunch of friends and people around me, teammates who also identified as gay and trans. And so I had wrestled with that, with God forever until 19 years old, just so broken and lost. I called my dad one day and I said, dad, you know, like, I wish we could have a relationship together. I miss you. And, and I heard these heartbreaking words over the phone and he said to me, kai. That was my nickname, Kai. It's just easier to start over with a new family. And so from there I just, I was so broken. There was here, he was my hero. He took me to everything growing up and then all of a sudden this distance. And that's when alcohol, alcohol came into my life at the age of 19.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Kyla, when we come to back, we'll talk about the continued progression of your journey, your decision to pursue medical transition and then the remarkable events in your life, the remarkable people that you met and the intersection of the grace of God and your continued journey and detransitioning. The book is called Transformed by Kyla Gillespie. Listen, if you have a family member who is struggling, I would encourage you to pick up a copy of this book and ask, God to inform your perspective and to continue to pray for hope and for healing. We'll be right back after this break.

 : Candace talks about finding out she was pregnant. Thankfully, an ultrasound provided by PreBorn allowed her to hear her baby's heartbeat. The sonogram sealed the deal for me. My baby was like this tiny little spectrum of hope and I saw his heart beating on the screen and knowing that there's life growing inside, I mean, that sonogram changed my life. I went from just Candace to mom. Thank you. To everybody that has given these gifts, you guys are giving more than money. You guys are giving love.

 : Preborn currently has clinics that do not have ultrasound machines. Would you consider a leadership gift and sponsor a machine today? These life Saving machines cost $15,000 more than most centers can afford. Your donation will save countless lives for years to come. Dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby or go to preborn.com/AFR like a

Then Christ Came by MercyMe: soldier with no armor in the middle of the battle I broken. I was broken. It was only getting darker in the valley of the shadow. I was hopeless. I was hopeless. I never thought that I would ever see the day when every single chain would break or hear the voice of heaven call my name. Then Christ came, changing everything. He took My sin and shame away now every song I sing Will be for him Ever since the moment he walked in Then Christ came welcome back, friends.

Dr. Jessica Peck: That is Then Christ came By mercy me. And that is exactly the story of the woman whose testimony we're sharing with you today. Every story begins with a search for identity, for belonging, but where that search leads can vary greatly. And we're talking today to Kyla Gillespie. She's written a book called Transformed the Power of God's Word and God's People and One Woman's Journey Through Gender Confusion, Reassignment Surgery and Detransitioning. If you're just joining us, Kyla has just shared with us her story. Growing up in the heyday of the Miracle Team in Canada, growing up playing hockey, having an older brother, growing up in a Christian home, but having her parents experience a very traumatic divorce and feelings of abandonment and rejection that followed and being lost and where did she belong and going to pursue professional hockey. And, Kyla, we were just starting to talk about addiction and how, how deeply it is interwoven through your story. And so I would love for you to continue to share with that, because there was a point where really, addiction took over your life at the same time that you're having very severe gender dysphoria. And it all kind of came to a crisis point that led you to start a journey to recovery.

Kyla Gillespie: Yeah, so I was playing hockey at the highest level that you could play in, Canada. And I was introduced into the LGBTQ community a few years back, and I started to drink. I picked up my first drink at 19. I didn't know anything about alcohol, but if I did know anything, I blacked out the very first time. And that was a sign that I was probably an alcoholic. And that continued through my life. just throwing my whole life and identity into hockey, Kyla. Hockey. And, drinking gave me, like you said in my book, this opportunity to disappear, to, suppress all the brokenness and the feelings of abandonment. But really, I was an angry drunk. And so it didn't suit me well at all because I would get into fights and started to see that pattern throughout my life. But after fighting and fighting and fighting with God, I can look back now and see that, I had a distorted view of God's character and really the gospel in general. And I'll explain that, because at 23, I ended up giving up and follow, and following the life Apart from God, which was coming out as gay. When I was 23, I thought that I had to clean up myself in order to come to God. And that was just wrong. I now know that he doesn't ask us to clean ourselves up. He asks us to come as we are, and he does the work within us. but back then, I was so broken, and so I came out as gay. And I started to really live that life and embrace that life, so far apart from God. And so drinking, really affected every single aspect of my life, even my hockey eventually.

Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, it's easy to see, Kyla, as you're. As I'm reading your book, as I was reading your book and you're sharing your story. It's easy to see how the goal post for I'll feel better when I'll feel whole, when I'll feel like I belong, when it just kept changing. Like when. When I have somewhere to stay, when I achieve something in hockey, you know, when I feel better that I am, you know, drinking and numbing the pain for that, when I'm able to come out fully in a relationship and live that life, lifestyle, or, you know. And then it got to the point where you thought, okay, it's got to be when I medically, transition, which means you started taking medications and you had surgery as well. And part of that medical transition. And I want to read one short little passage out of your book that you. That you said. You said, not one doctor and not one of my transgender friends told me it might be emotional. So a few days after leaving the hospital, I called one of my friends who had been through the surgery and asked, did you experiencing anything like this? And the answer was clear on the other end of the phone. Yes. I didn't understand why no one had mentioned it beforehand. And yet at the same time, I believe I wouldn't have reconsidered the surgery. So what did it matter? This was new to me. And then you went on to say that you cried for weeks. And you said, years later, looking back, I can see that my body itself was somehow grieving something much bigger. Maybe it's hard to grasp or believe, but I was truly grieving something permanent. The removal of something intrinsic, something God given, something that conveyed not just God's design, but the meaning behind the female body that has a certain powerful message in this world. The decision removed forever the option of bearing children, whether I wore them or not. The option of a body that declares the goodness of life and the awesomeness of being a woman. I wanted the results of the surgery, but I hadn't fully comprehended its significance, of the cost.

Transition medically seemed like the ultimate goal 

And this is a theme in your book, Kyla. You talk about like, that you would think this would be the one that would make you feel like everything was right. And then it just. The goalpost kept moving. How? Tell, us what you'd like to share about that experience. And then what started you back on your journey to find wholeness and recovery and healing?

Kyla Gillespie: Yeah, I think through all the brokenness, it left me, more broken, more lost than I had ever felt. And so transition medically seemed like the ultimate goal. Like you said, in my book, as you read that, it seemed like if I had, you know, just come out as trans and gay, then I would have freedom. And then it was, if I change my name and my gender marker, maybe that will bring congruence and freedom. And then I. That didn't do it. That didn't satisfy me. So then I went, on testosterone. And I thought maybe after this next, you know, surgery, maybe I would feel complete. But that completeness never came. And I know now that that hole in our hearts, the one that longs for congruence and unity, is only found in the one who created you and me, and that's God himself. And so as we try to grasp and, you know, fill that hole with everything, it just left me more broken than I had ever been. And I thought that maybe that surgery that you're talking about in my book would be a, ah, surgery that would, you know, they talk about having. After the surgery, you will have more opportunity to grow facial hair and a lower voice because you have no, testosterone fighting against estrogen. And so my understanding was very small and limited. And then after the surgery, not realizing the pain that came with it, the sorrow of those body parts. And that's when I, you know, looking back, I realize now that we are embodied souls. And so when we, take for me personally, when that was removed from my womanhood, from me, there was a deep, deep, sorrow over it and a mourning over never, bearing children. But I didn't think at the time that I wanted to bear children. But looking back, I can see just how difficult that was on me as a whole person.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah. And you really talked a lot about your gender dysphoria, like, kind of, and your anxiety about how you look just swinging on this wild pendulum. Like, I want to look more like a man, and then I want to look more like a woman and just having just really, a lot of severe emotional distress about that. And then, Kyla, you know, as I read in your book, you know, you had an injury that brought you back home for a while. And you started going to church, and you walked alongside a tremendous couple. Their names are BJ and Jess, as you say in the book. And you just described this interaction as just radically life changing. And I want to read another small portion of your book. You said they started with small portions of truth, bathed in love. And you were talking about going to the church and you. And you had wanted to be a leader. And you said here that they said that to be in church leadership or to lead others wasn't just a matter of having a desire, but a matter of years of being known and knowing others, putting the others first, faithfully following Christ. It was established by years of discipleship and surrender to God, learning his ways and making them your own. And so it just seems like, you know, they ended up welcoming you into their home. But there were also boundaries. They also spoke truth. She, she just read to you scripture from Isaiah that was deeply convicting to you as you shared. Can you just share a little bit about this? Because I think this is something that listeners really struggle with. How do we walk? The truth in love.

Kyla Gillespie: Yeah. And that can be scary and difficult to understand and know how to do that with grace and truth. I always Love, John 1:14, where it says, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, from the Father, full of grace and truth. Now, as Christians, we have the ability to become more like Jesus in our intimate relationship with him. But Jesus was perfect in both. And we fall short, in our brokenness. But we need to strive. I believe we need to strive more to be like Jesus so that we can hold grace and truth as equal as possible. And then when we don't, hit the mark, we can go back and say, like, I'm sorry, that. That didn't come out the way I wanted it to. But here's the thing. They stood as people that loved me so deeply. They didn't run, run away when I was, you know, as. Like, it was about a year and a half that we walked together where I was Bryson, and my pronouns had been changed legally to he. And so we walked in that messy part of my life where they just said, we're all in, if you want to walk it out. But they also said that we're here, but we have the authority of God's Word as our plumb line, our guide in our life. Do you want to follow us with the truth of God? And so I weirdly at the beginning said, yes, I'm all in. But God had to do a really big work within my heart, actually regenerate my heart, so that I would submit everything to Him. But it was a really hard time and my friends just showed me a beautiful display of biblical manhood and biblical womanhood, which made me really question actually how I was living because I started to miss the intimate relationships, the healthy, biblical intimate relationships that one has as a woman to woman. And also I saw the biblical relationships between men and women and how they so beautifully, looked out for them and cared for them and were kind and gentle and protective over them. And so I started to really question those, you know, those things like, can I actually follow God and be a man, so to speak, in my transition. And God revealed to me and it's in my book in such a powerful way, he. He said no.

You talked about the impact of Psalm 139 in your journey

Dr. Jessica Peck: And one of the other things that you said, reading from your book, you said how this discipleship unfolded was a lot more haphazard than it sounds. There were plenty of teaching moments, yes, but not all were long, deep discussions. Many of them came through dozens of natural encounters. A sermon here, a video there, a discussion at a Bible study, a conversation in the lobby after church, or my friend said this and what do you think of that? It was a multitude of encounters that slowly but surely led me to press in, press on, and want Christ more and more. Of course, what really kept me going to church was not my determination, but the most remarkable mystery of all. God draws people near. And then you, you talked about really the impact of Psalm 139 in your journey and God speaking to you through that psalm. Can you share that with us, Kyle? Kyla? Yeah.

Kyla Gillespie: Their love for, each other and for me broke, down all the walls. I started to see, no matter how hard it got, they still loved me and they weren't going anywhere. And that coming from a broken family and abandonment of a father, I had lots of walls built. and I would, honestly, I tested them at the beginning, like, do their words match their actions? And over and over and over again I saw their face, faithfulness. And so, as we, you know, pursued Jesus together, I started to really notice, just how important it was for us to surrender every area of our life to them. And. Sorry, could you repeat that question, Jeff? So I have, yeah, Kyla, I can

Dr. Jessica Peck: just talking about Psalm 139. So again, you know, I, if you could see how many sticky notes I have in your book. Right here. This is the. You said you can. After you read Psalm 139, you felt compelled to ask these questions. Yeah, do I have the right to choose and determine my own sex, gender and sexuality? Does God the Creator makes mistakes? What does God ultimately want from me? And you started talking about just these, these questions. How did, how did God meet you? Where was God and the healing part of your journey? Because, you know, so many people talk about, like, finding you. You didn't find contentment through medical transition, through pursuing your own path. You found it through God meeting you. How did he meet you?

Kyla Gillespie: Yeah, thank you so much for repeating that. it was crazy because I had read, ah, Psalm 139 many times as a child, but it didn't impact me in such a dramatic way until God started to open up the passage for me. I started to feel like being a man in this world was just too heavy. And what I mean by that, it was heavy on my soul. If I was not created as a biological male and ultimately created as a biological female, the question was, how do I make sense of how I'm living and how I feel? And he started to open up that, like you are created before the foundation of the world. You're not a mistake. He started to teach me through his Word, there is purposes and plans that he has for me that I can't do as Bryson as male. I can only do them walking out my God given gender and sexuality as Kyla as female. And so there was just so much within that, those moments of that and then asking those deep questions like, do I actually have the right to choose and determine my own gender and sexuality was a big question. Is like when, when Jeff read me even Isaiah, it's like, do I have the right to say to the creator of the universe, he made a mistake. And I wrestled with that for a long time. Finally, in my brokenness.

Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm gonna hold you right there, Kyla, because we're already at, our second break. The time is going way too fast. Listen, we'll be right back. Back with more from Kyla Gillespie, author of Transformed. We'll see you on the other side of this break.

 : And my father, your great grandfather, fought in World War II. Really?

 : He was a gunner on the big ship out in the Pacific Ocean. Wow.

 : Your great grandmother did her part too. Was she on a ship?

 : Oh, no, she stayed back home. She and a lot of her friends worked really hard in a factory because the men had gone off to war and they held scrap metal. Drives to help in the war effort. The folks back home were heroes, too. Here at the American Family association, we consider you the heroes back home. as you fulfill your responsibility of caring for your family day to day, your partnership with us is crucial as we fight the enemies of freedom in America. Thank you for your commitment to the American Family Association. Grandpa, what's a scrap metal drive?

 : Let's get some cookies and I'll tell you all about it.

Heaven On My Mind by TobyMac: I can hear the birds singing the song is in my head it goes and the scene's already set I can see the skies open Then windows coming down My heart's on things above While keeping two feet on the ground and all I know ain't no way to is my home I got heaven on my mind I got people waiting by Close my eyes and I can see Dancing on them golden streets Got me dreaming of the day Never leave we get to stay Till I see that welcome sign I ain't even gonna lie I got heaven on my mind on my mind I got heaven Life ain't that down here But I got heaven on my mind on my mind I got heaven on my mind welcome back, friends.

Dr. Jessica Peck: That is Heaven on My Mind by TobyMac And sometimes in today's world, we can just think. Oh, we long for the day when all things are made new, but things are not as they should be. And we expect experience as humans, a world that is not perfect. We experience abuse, trauma, tragedy, trial in numerable forms of brokenness. And today I am talking with Kyla Gillespie. She's the author of a book called Transformed the Power of God's Word and God's People and One Woman's Journey Through Gender Confusion, Reassignment Surgery and Detransitioning.

Kyla writes about the impact of Psalm 139 in her book

I want to give, another content advisory. We are discussing things that are mature themes and that are not for little listeners but that are so important for the body of Christ to talk about. And Kyla, you've shared your testimony so beautifully, and we were just talking about the impact of Psalm 139 and being made in God's image. And I want to share just a little bit more with our listeners out of your book because you wrote it so beautifully. One of the things that you said is it's like an out of body experience when God takes you and shows you the intimate things you could never see clearly. Before the scales over my eyes were being removed. It was becoming painfully clear that I had to choose which life I wanted. I couldn't live them both. But there were still hesitations, questions and so many unknowns and what we were talking about too. So I'd love for you to finish whatever thoughts that you had about Psalm 139 and just again, continue to talk about Jess and BJ and the other members of your church that walked beside you, balancing grace and truth as you took this journey to, to wholeness and healing.

Kyla Gillespie: Yeah, as I was sharing with, your listeners before, it was just this moment where he started to actually, use Psalm 139 to, to meet me in my brokenness. And it was so powerful how he did that. It's like, no, I created you beautifully and wonderfully. I created you with purposes and plans. And when you're hearing, like, as I heard that in my spirit, like him speaking to me so intimately and radically, I was just like, like falling before him, like, what do you want from me, God? Like, I want to honor you. I want to walk in your ways. I just don't know if it's possible. And that was the real reality. After six years of being on testosterone and having many surgeries, even my doctors going to see them, like, they were unsure if I would ever look female again. They had never seen anything like that. You know, today in our culture, it's, it's widespread, it's, it's something that we talk about a lot, which is great, but also, is highly, ah, lifted. And, and really it's like, what, what is the best thing to do is, is people are saying to transition from your, like, if you feel any incongruence or any discomfort within your body, then your mind, you know, you change your mind. And God says, no, I transform you by the renewing of your mind. And so submitting to him in those moments was difficult because one, I had told everyone I knew that I was happy on the outside, that I chose this life. And so it was a lot of pride. Right? I had to go back to all my family members and said I made a terrible mistake. And I believe God wants me to de. Transition. And in those moments, I remember this one particular moment where I told Jess and all the leadership of, the group that I was walking with, the family of God that I was walking with. And I remember her just telling me later that every Friday night the leaders would gather and they would eat together, break bread and open up the word of God. And she said that they, for over a year and a half would fast and pray for me. And they kept asking for God to release Kyla. And there's something powerful when you know that people love you so much that they're willing to, you know, fast and pray and walk with you through all the brokenness and not leave you and abandon you. And. And that just honestly changed my life.

Dr. Jessica Peck: One of the stories that you shared about Jess in particular was a story about the pearl. Can you share that?

Kyla Gillespie: Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Peck: So, good.

Kyla Gillespie: I'll just take you back into early recovery. When I went into recovery for alcoholism, it was a Christian facility that my, you know, that I was put in. And, I was really hesitant. you know, we had to go to church on Sundays and go to this ministry for other local recovery homes within the area of the Tri City, Coquitlam, actually, Port Coquitlam. And, that ministry was based on, you know, supporting local recovery homes and teaching them about God. And so I started going to that in 2011 because it was mandatory. But I kept going even after I left the recovery home. And I had been going for about five years. But in that early moment of going to God Rock, when I was just coming into recovery, this pastor was praying over me. And I didn't hear much in early recovery because it was very confusing and I was out of it a lot. But I just remember her saying, girl, and shell. And so I prayed to God, I said, please let me know whatever you mean by that. Please draw it to my attention in the future if it's important. And you want me to know that. But what I thought in my brokenness is like, okay, God's showing me that the rough edges of the outer exterior of the shell is, me m now. And he's making me into this beautiful pearl that's inside. And so I didn't really think much about it until I detransitioned. And I was at that Friday night meeting. And I had asked God, that morning, actually, God, if this is really what you want me to do, can you just give me one more sign? Because it was a big deal to detransition and change my entire life. And so God doesn't have to do that, but in his kindness, he did. And so as Jess was praying over me and everyone was gathered around me with their hands laid upon me, justice spoke out. I believe God wants you to know he's the pearl. He's the treasure. And I broke down in tears. And I could. She would have never known that that was, you know, six years ago. That was spoke over my life. And I realized it wasn't me that was the rough shell and me the pearl. It was him. The ultimate prize, the Treasure, he was the one. And so in that moment, I had clarity and conviction that this was the path that I was supposed to follow in my detransition, to follow him with everything.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Kyla, that. That's so beautiful.

There was a real transparency in the communication between you and your friends

And, you know, one of the things that struck me too, in reading your story is the real transparency that happened in the communication between you and this people, this group of godly people who are walking alongside you, praying for you, supporting you, and, and really loving you with such a beautiful balance of grace and truth. And there were many times that you wrote about where they would say, like, we're unsure, like, we don't know what to do. We need to ask you for grace. We're trying to follow the conviction of the Lord. And there are going to be times where we say the wrong thing. There be times when we say the right thing, and it's painful. Can you talk a little bit about that transparency and communication and how that kind of set the, the stage for some of the. These conversations that were to come?

Kyla Gillespie: Yeah. What we agreed together to do was, to do life together, through the ups and downs, the seasons of hard times and good times. And we promised each other that we would extend, like, so much grace towards each other. At first, they. They asked for grace to be extended because they knew that they were going to. You know, they had never walked with a transgender person, so they might, you know, say things that, might hurt me. And in that moment, I realized also that I will probably be defensive and I will probably want to run away, when the truth hurts. And so I asked for grace to be extended to me. And so in that walking together, we just always. We told each other, no matter how hard it gets, no matter what is said or not said, we would always come back to each other. And. And so I knew, without a doubt that they were going to be there even after we had friction or conflict or truth really poked it and would make me defensive and hurt me. And so in that time, I got to learn what real love is. And they showed me the beautiful love of all. I literally saw a glimpse of Jesus himself. And I. I just felt so passionate and in love with him in those moments, knowing that there was people who loved Jesus more than themselves and were willing to walk in the hardship and the. And the questions and the pain and everything with me in it.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Kyla, another portion from your book you talked about, you said many conversations with Jess followed regarding what it means to be a woman, and you talked about that a little bit before. And you, you, you talked about what you learned and kind of, I took this as like, this is, this went. And all of your wrestling and all of your struggling, that that's where you landed. You said, I learned that no matter what parts of our anatomy are taken from us, it doesn't change who we are, nor does it erase our God given sex. That is impossible. Our sex design goes deeper than our external bodily form or our internal organs. It goes to our creation, into the fabric of our beings, to our DNA, our chromosomes the cellular level and even molecular level. And one of the, last things that you said here was that at my core, I knew that I could never entirely succeed in becoming a man. Despite my attempts to do so, something deep inside me kept bubbling up to the surface. My design, my sex, my womanhood. And Kyla, I think it's extraordinarily courageous. Like you said, it was courageous to detransition to, because like you said, you had already presented yourself in such a public way, you had changed your name and, and all of those things. And ultimately this is where you landed. And God has put it on your heart to share that. Can you share a little bit about how this came from just your own personal story to being, reaching out to others?

Kyla Gillespie: Yeah. there were so many moments where, when I detransitioned in 2017, I just felt like God placed on my heart quite a few things, but a handful of things. And one was that I would, I would speak and I was like, okay. And the others that I would write a book one day. And I said, God, you need to like, you know, open up all the doors and make this possible for me to do this. But there was things that he called me to in the future that I saw, but things he also called me to right in that moment and was, no matter how I felt, to trust him and to be willing to walk it out, even when it was very, very difficult in the beginning and throughout my detransition. so for those like, I just want to share the hope that we have in Christ when we look at transgender people or LGBTQ people. I long for the church to love well in grace and truth. I love the church. And my hope is that we can become more like Jesus so that we can love. Because when we look at every single person who's ever been created, past, present and future, they were created in the image of God and they have and hold infinite value to him. And so if we come into a relationship, knowing that that person was created in the image of God, and they have infinite value to God that He died not just for me, but literally for the person standing in front of me. And we're willing to love with grace and truth through the process. You know, not everyone's going to be willing to walk it out, and surrender to Jesus, and that hurts. However, I do believe, and we read in Scripture and Jesus hasn't come yet because he is compassionate and he wants more to come to himself and get and know Him. And so in that, we could just, you know, I asked Jess like, how did you love me so well? And of course she said, oh, we didn't. We made lots of mistakes and all this kind of stuff. But she said, we just wanted to be your friend. I was like, man, when I go into any, relationship, new or old, I just want to be their friend now. I just want to hear their story, their heart, their experiences, their past, their hurt and pain. And I just want to be there with them, in it. And I believe that if we do that in a compassionate, empathetic way, we don't have to affirm everything that someone's living out, but we can come with care and empathy and compassion and meet people where they're at. I think that, you know, it would change the world.

Dr. Jessica Peck: M. Well, Kyla, you are changing the world. I know, and I'm so grateful for the ways that you have found hope and healing in your story. It makes me, Reading your childhood story reminds me why I'm so passionate about equipping families to respond early to childhood trauma. But at the end of the day, stories like Kyla's remind us that people are not problems to solve. They are souls to love and grace and truth made in the image of God. And as you reflect on what you've heard today, I encourage you to bring it before the Lord and ask him for wisdom. Ask for discernment. Ask for a heart that reflects both his truth and his grace. Because in a world full of noise and confusion and competing narratives, our ultimate anchor must always be the unchanging truth of God's word, which says he loves you. And I pray the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. I'll see you right here tomorrow.

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Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.