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 : and welcome to the Dr. Nursemama Hope for Healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.

Research suggests that one in four Americans is estranged from at least one family member

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to prescribe Hope for Healthy Families for you, spending time with you and listen, we've got a topic that is on the hearts and minds of a lot of families. Have you ever looked at your adult child for families who are in those later stages of parenting? And you have adult children. Children. And you've looked at them and wondered, where did it go wrong? Where did we lose each other? Maybe you just remember the prayers that you prayed over their crib, over that sweet baby. Or the Bible stories that you read at bedtime, the countless rides to church, the family meals, the sacrifices, the conversations, the tears. You didn't pair perfectly, but you did your best. And you tried to point them toward Jesus and you tried to give them a strong foundation. And yet today your relationship feels strained. Maybe they've walked away from their faith. Maybe. Maybe they've embraced values that conflict with everything you taught them. Maybe every conversation feels like you're navigating a minefield. Or maybe the silence is what hurts the most of all. But if that is your story, hear me say today that you are not alone. Research suggests that one in four Americans is estranged from at least one family member. And behind those statistics are not just numbers. These are moms and dads and family members and real people carrying real grief and real heartache and guilt and confusion and unanswered prayers. And many parents carry a quiet grief that few people see. They may celebrate their children's accomplishments publicly on social media while privately mourning the distance in their relationship, or wrestle with questions in the middle of the night like did I fail? Or what should I have done differently? Or will things ever get better? And in a culture that often blames parents for everything and just kind of offers a simplistic or humanistic answer for complex family wounds, many parents and families are carrying burdens that grieve the heart of God too And somewhere along the way, maybe you've even come to believe that your worth as a parent is measured by the choices that your adult children make. And you're wondering, what did you do wrong? But that's not what scripture teaches. The Bible is filled with stories of people, of families, of family drama and dysfunction and, and kids who made heartbreaking choices despite having loving guidance or faithful instruction and godly examples. And God himself allow his children the freedom to choose, but he never stops pursuing them.

Jim Burns writes a new book about parenting when your adult child strays

Now, today, we're talking about one of these most painful and personal challenges that adult, that a parent can face. Loving an adult child who has strayed. But this conversation is not about guilt or grief or blame. It is about hope. Because no relationship is beyond God's reach, no prodigal beyond his pursuit. And no parent has to walk this road alone. Joining us today is one of the most trusted voices in Christian parenting, Jim Burns. And he has written a new book offering practical wisdom, biblical perspective, and a pathway from heartache to hope for parents who are navigating these difficult relationships with their adult children. The newest release is called when your adult child strays, Trading heartache for hope. Now that sounds like a tall order, but I'm confident that we are up for the challenge today. Jim and Kathi have raised three daughters. They're now grandparents. They've got personal and professional experience. And most of all, Jim has the best, biggest heart for families of anybody I've ever seen. Jim, so glad to have you here. Thank you so much for spending time with us, Jessica.

Jim Burns: I've been looking forward to it. I've told you before, you're my favorite host. And also, you just know your stuff. Wow, what you just said. I think there's so many people who have their adult children who have strayed or even sometimes the teen world. And, you know, it is a heartbreaking thing. You explained it so well. You don't need me. You just keep going on.

Dr. Jessica Peck: And I, I, I see that my payment came through pre show. Jim, I'm so glad to hear that. I'm so glad to have that. But no, but really, we both have a heart for hurting families, and this is a conversation we need to have. I, let's just dive right in.

 Many parents are shocked when their adult children stray from faith

Jim, why are so many parents shocked or blindsided when their adult children walk away from the faith, when they rebel, when they embrace values? Why does it always seem to, or, frequently seem to catch us off guard?

Jim Burns: Yeah, well, you know, I think partly is because we did a lot of things right. You know, our kids Went to church, maybe they were involved in the youth group. We weren't perfect. Our marriages weren't perfect. But the truth of the matter is, is we did a pretty good job. I'm seeing a lot of parents do that, and then their kids, you know, graduate from high school, become adults. I'm putting that in quotes because at 18, you're really not an adult. But they think they are. And then they start violating values. Some stray from faith, and it's just one of the most heartbreaking things. I see it everywhere I go. I could be talking to about teenagers, and I get somebody who says, yeah, but my older child, you know, violated values. And we did this stuff. We thought it was going to be right. And so I, you're. You're right. The word that we use is shock. We're shocked also. There's a lot of shame. There's grief, because we play the game well, what. What if we would have prayed more? What if we wouldn't have argued more? What if we would have gone to church more often, Whatever it might be. When I think a lot of parents are playing that heavy duty blame game and they can't be defined by their

Dr. Jessica Peck: kids poor choices, that's a really tough truth to accept, because inherently we do and we think, okay, where did I go wrong? What was my fault? And, and obviously, Jim, there's no perfect parent. You know, you're not a perfect parent, I'm not a perfect parent. Nobody's a perfect parent. But we can often do the best that we can do, and kids can still make poor choices. How do we get underneath the burden of that kind of guilt? That just feels crushing.

Jim Burns: Yeah, and the word is crushing. You know, I think a lot of times what we do is we suffer in silence. We, look around at the church that we're at and we go, everybody else has it together. And so I talk a lot in this book. I'm trying, I would like to help the adult children, but frankly, I'm trying to help the parents to do that. I think we need a number of things, but I think one of the things we need is what I call a circle of support. You know, who is our support system? Who is, who are our mentors, who is our counselor? how do we handle that? The Bible says, where there was no counsel, that people fall. That includes, you know, pastoral relationships. That includes the medical world. it includes peer support, includes somebody in your family. I mean, sometimes families are really dysfunctional, but, you know, you can find somebody when you have people around You. And you're willing to share, that's a much easier way, because they're going to help you carry that burden. It doesn't make the burden go away, but it. It makes it a little lighter because now it's kind of off your chest. You're talking about it. And then, you know, the other thing that. That I think is so. So key is that we have to realize. You mentioned it at the beginning, we're not alone. This, honestly, is where a lot of parents, they almost. They stray from their faith because they're frustrated or their anger or whatever, when, in fact, what they've got to do is just understand that God is there for the brokenhearted. God is there for those and gives hope. And, you know, the other thing is you got to find those good stories, in that book when your adult child strays. I tell. Well, I told a story about a guy who had been estranged for 15 years, and he came back. So, you know, that's a long time. Hopefully it's not 15 years. Sometimes it's longer than 15 minutes or 15 days. But, you know, there are good stories. And so we stay in the story. No matter what, we stay in the story. And a lot of parents want to walk away from it because it's just so hurtful. No, I just say, stay in the mess. And you know what? God is good with messes. I kind of hear God saying to you and me and anybody else, you know what? I'm okay with messes. I've been living in messes for a long time.

Dr. Jessica Peck: That is so true.

 We talked about being free from guilt, but what about shame?

And in this story, guilt is a big character player. But, you know, Jim, I feel like guilt's best friend is shame, and guilt and shame go hand in hand. And a lot of times there's so much shame and saying, you know, yeah, my kid is doing this because you don't want to open up that scrutiny. You don't want people to think poorly of your kid. You don't want people to think poorly of you if you're being really, really honest. How. Okay, we talked about being free from guilt, but what about shame? Piece of it. How do you break past that barrier that seems impossible to actually speak about it to the first person?

Jim Burns: Yeah, yeah, you're right.

Dr. Jessica Peck: And.

Jim Burns: And again, I. First of all, you have to admit that you have shame and how. And then you got to start figuring out, how do I rise above my circumstances? I like to say a phrase, you know, your circumstance. We're thinking today about adult children, but this could be for anything. Your circumstance may not change, but your attitude can change. So how do you rise above that? And I think part of that is, you know, in the book I talk about, isolation is not your friend at all. So we can't be isolated. It goes back to, you know, coming together, and in the middle of it, we have to be adaptable. You know what? My and our kids are amazing. as you and I were talking ahead of time, my wife is at the, At a hospital, and my three adult daughters have just come alongside her. We just are so grateful for this. They've come alongside me, you know, so we're. We're in a good place. But what we've had to say is. There's a little phrase I like to use. Does it really matter? And I'll tell you, when they were in high school, there are some things that mattered that right now kind of doesn't matter. And I happen to have. Like I said, I'm very blessed. Our kids took bumps in college and whatnot, but they've kind of come back. But so many of our friends, you know, sometimes they're so focused and being one topic parents about a really, you know, crummy thing that their kid is doing, but they've got to expand it. And I talk a lot in the book about what I call, kind of reframing your mindset. I tell a story about Justin, who has, Has. Has married a woman that the parents did not like. He had really strayed from his faith, violated values like crazy. And then they made a baby. When they made the baby, they got married. And so I said to them, that's a fact. Now what else is true? And they said, oh, their eyes lit up, and they said, oh, we have this beautiful granddaughter, and we are trying to love that granddaughter with the love of Jesus like crazy. And. And they allow that. Oh, well, that's good news. What else is true? You know, what they in. And your tradition. My tradition probably doesn't have godparents, but. But in their tradition, they ask the, the people, the couple, they ask, my friend's daughter, who's a great Christian, to be the godparent. Well, that's a good. That's good. Mother's Day. Justin hadn't been with the mom for a long time, hadn't even written her cards, and he took her out to lunch, gave her a card, told her how much he loved her. So again, what I'm trying to show is you still got a baby out of wedlock, and they're still married to somebody they don't totally think is the, you know, wife or mother of the year. But, you know, sometimes we just have to do that. And again, you say, well, how do you take that away? Well, you kind of don't. You just figure out that there's, you know, other things that are going on that are better. And one day I have a belief that some of these kids who have strayed, violated values. They're going to, they're going to miss the community that they had when they were in youth group. They're going to miss, the worship. They're going to miss good teaching, and they're going to come back. And I, and you see that all the time. Gen Z and millennials, you know, fled the church. And we're beginning to see them coming back. And I think we're beginning to see them coming back. And unfortunately, it's not that they want to come back sometimes to our church, but they want community. They remember, they remember, and they go, you know, it's not better on the other side of God. And, I think that's important for people to be reminded of.

Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, it can be hard for parents to hold out hope. And I think that kids who are straying, kids who are choosing different paths, they need to see the hope of Christ reflected in our eyes. They need to see that we have it. And sometimes the truth is we don't feel it. Maybe we feel like maybe this situation is hopeless, it's beyond repair. And you talk a lot in the book about lowering emotional reactivity because the emotions are high here and instead validating the feelings. How can that, that help change our attitude and mindset to give us a posture towards hope?

Jim Burns: Right. Well, I call it be the adult in the room. Some of the stories I heard about parents, oh, and it's so hard, especially when it's kind of true. I'm not, you know, parents aren't coming saying I blew it. They, they may say I, but I'm not happy about this. They're telling truth and they're, they're, their intentions are great, Jessica. But what happens is sometimes we, get too angry or we let out all our angry on anger on them, and we need other outlets because that's not the place to do it.

Jim Burns: Having a good relationship with an adult child takes discipline

So how do the question becomes, is it possible to have a good relationship with an adult child and not agree with their values? I think it is, but that takes discipline. You know, Paul said to Timothy, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness. And he kind of uses an athletic term in that. Discipline but we have to do that. We have to discipline our mind. We have to keep our mouth shut We have to still create what I like to call a kind of a welcome mat culture. And how do you do that when all you're doing is your heart is breaking because, you know, they're living with somebody, they're smoking pot, they don't believe in Jesus anymore, whatever it might be. But it's possible to do that and parents can. It's a matter of, again, having that discipline and desire to, you know, look at it from a different angle. And, you know, I, I never dreamed I was going to write a book on when your adult child strays. But when I wrote and I talked to you about the book doing life with your adult children, I. I didn't know I was going to spend the rest of my life talk every day. I had three. I saw three emails today that came in through our homeward website, you know, saying, my kids have violated values and whatnot. So I feel their pain and I'd like to take away their pain, but I think there's things we can do in the middle of it. somebody just told me recently, and I remember saying this to them. I was talking about how the Psalms have both, you know, praise and lament. And I said, read the. Read five Psalms a day. You know, this isn't really the prescription that everybody should probably do. But she goes, you know, you have no idea what. She goes, I've done that for three months now. I've read the. I've read through Psalms three times because it's 150, you know, Psalms.

Dr. Jessica Peck: That's right.

Jim Burns: And she goes, hasn't taken away my. My kids poor choices, but what it has done is given me a better perspective. And I love that.

Dr. Jessica Peck: I love that, too, Jim. I'm actually reading through the Psalms this summer myself. I'm calling it a summer in the Psalter. And that was. I took that from a preacher that we had a while ago. But when we come back, Jim, so much more to talk about. When I talk about how do we cope with this. I want to go back to that anger piece, too, because that is a really big part of this journey that can impact our physical, emotional, and relational health. We'll have so much more with parenting expert Jim Burns. On the other side of this break,

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In Jesus' Name by Darlene Zschech : God is fighting for us. God is on our side he has overcome yes, he has overcome we will not be shaken we will not be moved Jesus, you are here Carrying our burdens covering our shame M He has overcome yes, he has overcome we will not be be shaken we will not be moved Jesus, you are here I will live I will not die the resurrection me and I am free in Jesus name.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back friends. That is in Jesus' name by Darlene Zschech And in case you didn't know, we interviewed Darlene not too long ago about her devotional. But those are such powerful words coming from a woman who has overcome a lot. Carrying our burdens, covering our shame. That is what Jesus in the is in the business of doing. And for many of us, the burden that you may carry is carrying the burden of having an adult child who has strayed somehow. Strayed from home, strayed from the faith, strayed from values, strayed from who God created them to be. And today we're talking to parenting expert Jim Burns, who has written a book about this. When your adult child strays, trading heartache for hope. And it can feel really hard to have hope in a situation that feels very hopeless. And one of the most freeing truths that Jim has taught us is that for parents to realize that love and control are not the same thing. We cannot control another person's choices, but we can choose how we respond. And Jim, you and I were just talking during the break a little bit. How I see anger playing into this a lot. We feel angry because we've lost control. And we're angry not even so much that our kids made the choices, but that they've derailed their life and that we know where that path is going to lead. But our kids certainly don't think, oh, my mother burns with righteous anger for me. How lovely. How do we step into that?

Jim Burns: So, no, that's not happening. Well, interesting enough, when you talk about Anger. Anger is always a secondary, emotion. So there's a reason for anger. And so we have to make sure we lean into what that is pretty easy when your child has, made some of those poor choices. You know, part of it is. And I love this quote.

Dr. Jessica Peck: It's.

Jim Burns: It's. I'm going to kill the quote, but I'm going to tell it the gist of it. There's a woman who said, this, not me. So this is not my original. But she said, you know, we laid a foundation for our children, and they built a shack on top of the foundation. My hope one day is that the shack will get brought down by them and they will build a castle. And, you know, I love that because I really do believe that we have to be in it for the long haul. So I think one of the ways to deal with your anger is, not to throw it out at them or even throw it out at God, because there are people who do that, or at yourself. work through your anger and realize that, you know, there's. There's things going on that we don't even understand, but also know that there's good things going on, that God. God doesn't abandon our kids, even if our kids abandon him for the moment. And so, you know, God is at work. And, you know, we have a daughter who. And again, we. Our daughters haven't. Don't have this story as much, but we have a daughter who she moved with her husband to an area, and everybody, she goes, everybody I meet are Christians. And she had been at a church where the pastor had had an affair, and it wasn't a good thing. And so they were so frustrated. You know, they were one of the, you know, many who had obviously, you know, a problem with that and weren't. We're not trusting, you know, the church for a minute. They're definitely millennials. And, and they go, I just run into the greatest people, and everyone is a Christian. And, you know, I take the kids to preschool and that, you know, and I just went, how great is that? Because we're like, these guys know to need to go to church more often, right? And, you know, now they've been invited and they're going, and they really like it. You know, she's not, again, doing a major rebellion. She wasn't even doing it when she wasn't going to church. But, you know, God says, I got this. I got this covered. You know, I can handle this. So I think we need to be aware of that and, and relinquish I think part of it, with our anger, is relinquishing our children to God. And that is not an easy thing to do. You know this, I know this. But it's a. It's something that really helps us. Even Jesus had trouble with relinquishment. He's in the G, and he says, lord, you know, I'll go this direction for you. It's right before he died on the cross, not my will, but your will. He said, if you could take this cup from me. He said it three times. So it's amazing to me that even our Lord, you know, had to, He was relinquishing his will, but it's an act of the will.

 When kids become adults, we have to relinquish control

And you. You talked about control. I think it's very important that we understand that when our kids become adults, that we have to give them the passport to adulthood. And we are out of the control business. And we don't want to verbally do that. We don't want to give them unsolicited advice. And yet, at the same time, we need to show love. When a kid violates values, what they need from you as a. As a mom or as a dad, is to be a cheerleader, even, because there's something that could be good. And what I always say is, you know, when they violate values and, you know, you want to control, the bottom line is, you know, what they want to still know is, do you still love me? And so we have to be the. Like I said, the greatest adult. But we also have to be the person who shows the most mercy and most grace. That's a hard thing to do. We're trying to control them, and that's just not working. Nobody in that. In the world of trying to help parents with adult children think that, you know, controlling is a good idea.

Dr. Jessica Peck: I think it's hard when, you know, you cross that boundary and you're into adulthood. And especially as you're passing through the land of what I call quasi adulthood, Jim, where it's like, okay, you're 18, 19, yet I still finance your life, you know, or you don't have a mortgage yet. you know, that kind of adulthood adult, I'm like, I need an adultier adult in this room. But when you're passing through that and learning to give up the control, that can be hard because maybe, you know, you accept. You come to that place where you think, okay, my kid is making choices I don't agree with. I relinquish them back to God. I still want to walk in relationship, but I feel like when you step into that relationship, Jim, it just almost immediately veers toward control. And then it's like, okay, now you fix your life so then we can be better. How do you step into that and initiate relationship without controlling?

Jim Burns: It's a new, you know, for two decades we did control. Now when they get to be teenagers, we're more, you know, kind of a consultant because many of their day to day decisions are being done by them. But for two decades we were in control basically and now we're not. So again, part of that is I would say there's a couple of things I would say one is that relinquishing side. But I would also say that we have to relearn how to parent a, child. When I even say parent, I call it doing life with your adult children. Because we're now not actively parenting day to day. But I think we have to relearn how to do it. But our kids also, we have to understand that. And I, by the way, I'm going to steal your, your line, quasi adulthood. Because that is so true. Adulthood. They don't know how to be an adult. So you know, both of us don't know really how to do this. So we have to have some patience with ourselves. That's why I think mentors are so good. Because you know, Kathi and I found mentors when we went, we didn't see this coming. Our kids, you know, when they got to college, you know, made all kinds of funny decisions and we, and it's funny they were hanging out with pastors kids and missionary kids too.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, that's trouble.

Jim Burns: And it was trouble. And then we realized, wait, it's, we're not blaming the pastor's kid or the missionaries kid. We're blaming our daughter for making some goofy decisions. But we realized it was, it was a new way of, you know, to, to walk. We had to learn how to do that. So I think parents have to honestly relearn how to communicate with part of that being that they're going to have to experience. When you experience loss and grief, you were talking about grief, but any grief, and it's a sense of loss. And you have to grieve that loss in a healthy way. And when you do that, part of that is learning to, to give them the control and us come alongside them the best we, we can, without only being one topic, parents.

Dr. Jessica Peck: And we do that well, you know, let's fast forward through quasi adulthood and let's say, you know, parents, there are parents out there. Who have been estranged from their kids for a long time. And I was thinking back, Jim, to the movie Home Alone. And I don't know if you remember this scene from Home Alone, but where Kevan is in the church talking with the elderly neighbor and he shares this story about being estranged from his kid. And it's so interesting to see that play through the eyes of a child. Like, well, did you call him? You know, just these simple kind of questions. But there are, you know, parents who have had years of burning bridges, building walls. Where do you even start with that when you have like a real adulty. Adult mortgage and everything?

Jim Burns: Well, you mentioned it at the beginning of the broadcast. You said 20, basically 27%. You know, one out of four families have an estrangement. Number one is dads, you know, that's. And then number two is adult children who have walked away. And it could be for some of the reasons are politics, gender issues, faith, you know, changes things like that. So it's. We're right talking about it. And I think we have to be really careful that if they've estranged from us, then. I love what Tina Gilbertson said, who's an authority on estrangement. She says it's not about who's right or wrong, it's about mending the fence. So where we have to be careful is going, here's how. Here's all the wrong things you're doing, and here's all the right things we're doing that's only going to push them away. So I think we tiptoe into the relationship and, and truly, you know, we acknowledge the estrangement, but we lead with love. We're. We be kind. That's what Jesus did. He led with love. He didn't agree with what was going on with a prostitute or a tax collector or some of these people, but he still led with love. And I think it's, We have to also have to be respectful of our kids even when they're making poor choices. So we're building all of that so that we can have reconciliation. And so I think you tiptoe into it. But I don't think we bring up the issue over and over again. I don't think we should be defensive even when they're, you know, blasting us for something and and vent frustration at them and take, take on all the blame. I think those are the things that we have to be really careful with. It takes time to heal. So the goal is to re. Establish connection. You don't do that by preaching and Lecturing and telling them how wrong they are.

Dr. Jessica Peck: you know, I was talking to Lori Wildenberg, who was talking about her estrangement from her daughter, and she said how, you know, she would be so tempted to lead with lecture. And she said, I finally realized she knew very well what I believed. I had already laid it out multiple times and just continuing to pound that wasn't going to do anything for our relationship. And I think, Jim, you know, when you. For me, as a nurse, when I'm looking at a clinical situation, we look at three factors. We look at intensity, and we look at duration and severity. How severe is it? How. How, you know, how intense is it? What's the duration there? And, you know, I think that there's a lot of people who think this is really severe. It's really intense. It's been forever. And it's. I see a lot of parents, Jim, who just have this resignation, like, okay, I've lost it. You talked about lost. Like, it's lost, it's done. I. Now my job is to move on. How do you hold it off?

Jim Burns: No, no, no, no. I think. I mean a couple things. One is, you've laid the foundation and you can't just spend your time, you know, they know what you believe, they know how you feel. So you can't just spend your time continuing to, you know, harp on that. I kind of talked about this. So I think how we. How we see hope is that, you know, we know that God is in control. We know that God is a God of hope and change. And we know that, you know, time sometimes heals. And as much as we don't want our kids to have a story, sometimes they have to go through, you know, some broken relationships, and they have to go through some of this pain to get to where they need to be. I have a friend who gave his daughter who was, And this, by the way, maybe the. The greatest parent, two parents that I've ever known. And, their daughter, you know, had a drug and alcohol problem. And she was in a sober living home. She'd been sober for only five months. And they gave her a necklace and they said, you know, hope, you know, for the future, peace, that you'll have peace with your past. You know, God is in control, in faith. And. And, you know, she's still in that process and who knows what will happen, but she's been sober for five minutes. Celebrate that. but celebrate it cautiously because, you know, there could be a bump here and there. And so I think that's partly how. How we do it. but we have to embrace the relationship, even if we have different views. And that's not easy for any of us parents. But that's honestly what we need to do.

Dr. Jessica Peck: It is not easy.

 What would you say to parents facing difficult parenting situations?

So what would you say to the parent that says, yeah, but you, you don't know my situation. Like, I've been praying about this. Like, this situation is beyond hope. What would you say to that parent?

Jim Burns: No, I. I would say I don't know your situation because I've not experienced it myself. However, I do know situations that would be similar to yours, and I've seen neat things. I tell a story about a guy named Eric. His parents were pastors. His dad was a pastor. His mom, very active, of course, in the church. And Eric had been estranged for 15 years. And one day he came back into the church after literally, there was estrangement up and downs in his life and whatnot. He stood at the back of the church. It was during worship time. He waited for the worship to get done. He walked to the second row where his mom was sitting, where she always sat. Dad was in the pulpit, and he held her hand. And he said, mom, I'm back. And I was talking to her and she said, I cried the entire service. Finally said at the. In the middle of the sermon, he goes, mom or, mom, you got to calm down. Okay, I'm back. Things are okay. I loved it. He said, she, she cried for three days after that. And he came back. He came back a little broken. Celebrate recovery helped him. you know, some other things helped him.

Dr. Jessica Peck: He.

Jim Burns: He wasn't the, you know, he came back with a smoking habit. And, you know, he didn't obviously do that in high school and whatnot and, and some brokenness, but it, it. You. I hear these stories. I hear the stories of hope every day. So I encourage these people to be around others who have some hope. And it's true, it may not change. So you got to change yourself. You're. Like I said, your circumstance may not change, but your attitude can. You can have a very vibrant life and you can't do a whole lot about it. Now there's things you can, if they go into deconstruction, you, you know, you keep welcoming them, you keep, you know, showing them love. But frankly, no easy answers here. But I never want to take your eye. You know, the Bible talks about fixing your eyes on Jesus. And I say, this is the time to fix your eyes on Jesus, because he is hope. It's not that their kids are going to make a good or a bad decision. That's going to go with the wind.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah. Fix your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfect of our faith, who for the joy be set before him, endured the cross despising its shame and now sits at the right hand of God. That is the hope that we have, Jim. And I'm so glad that you brought up the messiness. You talked earlier about the messiness, and I think that's an important reality for us to accept too, that when kids may come back into the fold, when they may have a change of heart, it's not some made for TV movie instant transformation. It's not, not, a, you know, Cinderella spin around and she's got a new ball gown. Like there's, you have to choose your battles. You can't fix everything at once. And if you look at it and you see, okay, incrementally, like, this is the thing that's changed, like celebrating those small victories, giving up the control that, okay, I'm not the author of their story. God is the author of their adult story. And having hope in that, that's. That's where we're going. Well, Jim, I got a lot more to talk to you about. We're already up at our stage, second break. It always goes so fast. But listen, hope is not pretending everything's fine. It is trusting that God is still at work, that he who started a good work will be faithful to complete it. Even when we can't see it. I think of the song Waymaker. Even when I can't see it, you're working. Even when I can't feel it, you're working. You never stop working. And parents may still be working to control the choices of their adult children unsuccessfully, but you can successfully choose grace and wisdom and prayer and healing and healthy boundaries and steadfast love. We'll be right back with more from parenting expert Jim Burns about when your adult child strays. Training heartache for hope. And we have more hope and help on the way right after this break.

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Let The Church Sing by Tauren Wells and gio: We love one truth we crown one name we battle one king we follow one way, one faith one gospel one cross one grave one resurrection we share by grace so we serve no one like our God Only one we need Holy is our Lord Hallelujah. Let the church sing no one like our God Only one we need Holy is our Lord Hallelujah.

Christian parenting expert Jim Burns shares his thoughts on broken family relationships

Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Let the Church Sing by Tauren Wells. And I agree with that with all my heart. And as Christian parents, that is really what we want. We want to have a faith that is that exuberant. We want to raise kids who love God and love other people and serve them well. But that is not everyone's stories. There are so many families out there who experience brokenness and estrangement. I know, I've experienced it myself. I have heard from so many families in my clinical practice, in my community, from here in my radio family. I know that this is something that people experience and you are not alone. And here to reinforce that message is none other than parenting expert Jim Burns. He's the author of a, jillion books.

65% of kids who graduate from high school will leave the faith

But the newest one is when your adult child strays, trading heartache for hope. And hope may feel like the last thing that you can hold on to because the situation seems so hopeless. And one of the ways that seems the most hopeless, Jim, I think, is when kids start to deconstruct their faith. When I talk to parents, that's one of their number one fears. That their greatest fear is that their kid will walk away from their faith. I think I can handle anything else as long as their faith stays intact. Like we can walk through anything else but that faith, deconstruction, that faith abandonment, that faith outright rejection and hostility. Jim, that's one of the most painful things that a family can experience. How do you even begin to step into that?

Jim Burns: That's deep. You're exactly right. And, you know, no parent is alone. the latest statistics are remaining pretty much the same, that it's still 65% of kids who graduate from high school will leave the faith. I'm not saying that they leave Jesus, but they'll, you know, they'll walk from their church or whatever it might be. And so, yeah, exactly. It's the, the pain runs deep. But we have to understand deconstruction too. You know, deconstruction in its simplest form means that it's the death of a, belief, the death of their relationship, their relationship with God, or the death of, of the church. But most of the time it's not their relationship with God. They're still holding on a little bit. When they first start out, they, you know, at first they just kind of neglect and then they drift. Yeah, they go into disobedience and then they forfeit their spiritual purpose. And that's not good. That's deconstruction. But I think a lot of us have to understand it. And I think I like to. To do it this way. There's. There's three ways that when I look at what I. I don't even call it deconstruction as much anymore, but I kind of call it the dropouts or even the wanderers. And I get this from a man named David Kinnaman, who is president of, of Barna, research. But he calls them nomads, prodigals and exiles. And prodigal is one who has walked from Jesus and denies their faith anymore. But a nomad is one who. They're just out there. They're still looking. So I think as parents, we can have a lot of hope. If they're not coming to you and saying they're going, yeah, I'm not going to church. But if they're out there, just in nomad land, they might come back once they get married. If we're talking about, the younger adults, they may they. When they get married or when they make babies. Exiles are interesting because they would consider themselves Christians. They've deconstructed from the church, so they don't feel comfortable with the church. A lot of times, adults leave the church for young adults anyway for really, you know, some of the reasons that are cultural that they don't even understand. They think all the church, you know, is political. All the church, you know, is against, you know, certain sexuality, whatever. And so as parents, it's hard because we have to hold. I hold a biblical view on all of those things. And to hold a biblical bill, say, say with sexuality. How do you hold a biblical view? And goes back to what we talked about. We still have to love them, but. But there's things that we can do. And I'll, give you this quote because this quote just rocks me like crazy. It's from Madeleine Lingle. She says we do not draw people to Christ by loudly discrediting what they believe, by telling them how wrong they are and how right we are, but by showing them a light that is so lovely that they will, with all their hearts, want to know the source. And I think that's what we share as parents. And it's hard to do that when you're, you know, frustrated that your daughter just moved in with her boyfriend. I mean, I get it. But to me, we have to understand where is our kid. A lot of parents, you know, just say, well, they're a prodigal. But then when I kind of explain the different nuances, they go, oh, you know what? I don't think they're a prodigal. I think, think. I think there's more hope there. And even with prodigals, there's hope because people change their mind all the time. They come back to Jesus. It didn't work for them. Sometimes with young adults, they're just like teenagers. They believe today and they don't believe tomorrow, and they believe today. You know, I mean, it's just. They go back and forth like crazy.

Dr. Jessica Peck: We know you mentioned earlier, Jim, about your daughter being at a church where there had been, an affair, marital unfaithfulness in the leadership. And I think that is a reality that many young people are facing. It seems like every time you open the news, you hear of another really painful fall from grace, you know, of, just actions of sin. And that can be really hard. And how do we as parents help to raise the eyes of our children not to put their hope in a person, in an institution, but only the perfect person of Jesus Christ. And I know it's been encouraging to me to look back and read through the Bible, because if you read through the whole New Testament, it's all problematic. Churches, like, that's pretty much the theme throughout the whole NewSong Testament. Like, we're not doing it perfectly, and yet the church has endured. How do we acknowledge genuine church hurt that may have happened while also pointing them to the faithfulness of God?

Jim Burns: I think that's what we do. Because, like, even with my daughter. Daughter on a personal level, I said, you know, I said, you know what? Churches are dysfunctional, just like families. And I said, so if you put your faith in that person, and I realize he needs to pull his act together, and, you know, he's wrong. And, you know, I mean, I. I did not, you know, just. Just play, you know, a kind of a game with him. But I said, he's wrong. But when you focus on Jesus and when you focus on his faithfulness to you, and when you focus on your relationship and, you know, she. I remember baptizing her in Jerusalem. I wrote, not in Jerusalem, but, you know, at the Sea of Galilee. And, you know, your baptism, you were new. But that has nothing to do with a preacher who, frankly, was kind of acting like an idiot. So I think we just have to acknowledge that. That and help them understand that, yeah, there's brokenness in the church, but that doesn't mean that you walk away from Jesus. he's the one who must be sad about that. And like you say, you know, churches in the Bible were a little crazy families. You look at Hebrews 11, you look at our fathers and our mothers of our faith, and oh, my gosh, there's a murderer and there's a liar and there's, you know, a prostitute and on and on. So, you know, we're all in good company when as. As sinners. So I. For me, it's helping them focus more on. On the good.

 : And.

Jim Burns: And you know, I have a. In that book, I talk about five things you do if someone's deconstructing. One of the things you do is, you know, doubters are accepted here. So if our kids are in a doubting, I mean, who's. Why would God be mad at us for doubting? You know, he's okay with that. Just like he's okay with messes. He's okay with their doubts. He goes, you know, you know, it's okay for you to doubt. I'm still here. And, and I'll get you in terms of having, you know, letting you see my presence. Reveal. I will reveal myself to you. So it's, you know, it seems to me that, you know, we really can't just focus on how bad those people are. I think we say broken people. I pray for them. I have a lot of my friends, in that area. not a lot, but, you know, some of them, you know, they've fallen from the Lord. And I'm sorry and sad, and I, I'm so sorry for that. But I'm not going to put my faith in them. I'm going to put my faith in the one who doesn't let me down.

Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I think in the middle of all of this brokenness, I see three common reactions from families, Jim. I see the family that just is going to pretend everything is normal. Like, okay, we're just not going to talk about it like it's an open secret, but everybody knows. But just show up, be happy, smile, keep your mouth shut. That's how it goes. Or the second would be, just to cut them off, off, like, oh, you've decided this. Like, you're out of my life. That's it. You don't exist anymore. I've grieved, I've moved On and the third one would be that like relentless pursuit of lecture. Like, you know, you need to do this and you need to do that. And yeah, here's this article, you know, that I read and here's this person you need to see. But you described the phrase that you just used from. I think you said, madeleine Engel is so beautiful, a light so lovely. How do we have healthy boundaries in that? And Jim, I think this is where you can't do it alone and you need wise counsel and sometimes that's professional counsel. How do we get ourselves into a place where we cannot, you know, cut them off, not pretend, not lecture them, but just show them a light so lovely.

Jim Burns: Well, sometimes we do have to have boundaries and the boundaries aren't. Boundaries are not walls. Boundaries are a tool to help understand a relationship. We all need boundaries and, and that's a positive thing, not a negative thing. So I think it's very, very, very key for us in that situation to, you know that, hey, we're not going to necessarily agree with you, but we're going to show love.

Jim Burns: In our family we have some differences about opinions and politics

Well how do you show love to your adult children? You know, if like, we have one daughter who we call it retail therapy. She loves to go shopping. She doesn't want to. Well, she'd like the stuff. We're not going to buy a bunch of stuff, but we take her on retail shopping. Another one likes to see sport, you know, love sports. So we go to new sports thing, do what they do, do what they, you know, show love to them. You don't have to always talk about it. In our family we have some differences about opinions and politics, among even my daughters. And so we just say this is not the issue for us. We're not breaking a relationship over that. And I was in your beautiful city not too long ago and a guy came up to me, he said, I'm getting, my son doesn't vote the way I vote. So I'm taking him out of the will because I don't want to give him one day is going to go to the, you know, the enemy. He said, then I meet the son. And the son goes, I'm not, I'm thinking he may not have a relationship with his grandson because I can't believe that he actually votes that way. And I said, you're telling me that you're going to break a relationship over a difference on, in politics they had an eight year old son. I said, you know, when I was 8 year old, and this is probably a burn on me More, I said, I'm not even sure I can remember President was let alone, but I would. I wouldn't break the value of a family over, you know, over things like that. And so your three things are, Right on. I took notes on you, Jessica.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Up. That's pressure.

Jim Burns: Those. Those three things are what we do. And, and we should do none of it. We should. You know, again, it's time for us to maintain an openness and grace in the midst of disagreeing with them. Guess who does that? Well, Jesus. Yeah, you know, he doesn't do everything we do. He still maintains an openness and a climate of, of that. And we have to recognize that, you know, God is sovereign and we're not. So it's really a spiritual discipline for us to do some of this, with our kids. And, you know, we're not going to be able to change them anyway. We. All we can do is, is point them toward that light by us living it.

Dr. Jessica Peck: That's the rub there, Jim, because, you know, we think about our kids and, okay, you're doing this. So I'm going to put up this boundary. And this means this in our relationship, and it's such a contractual thing, but then we turn around to our relationship with God and like, okay, but, yeah, you. You forgive me for that, right? Okay, we're good. Right? Like, you know, we have such a different set of expectations. And I remember always hearing Corrie 10 boom talk about forgiveness. Of course, you know, if you're not familiar with her life, she was imprisoned in a concentration camp for hiding, Jews in her father's clock shop. And she talked about how she was compelled to forgive because Christ had forgiven her. And I think about that. And forgiveness isn't the same thing as, okay, everything's fine, and you just forget everything and have no boundaries. But you have to walk in that healthy and that healthy place, and it's hard. So, Jim, if you were just going to start, if somebody's listening, thinking, you know what, this has been going on for a long time, and I'm just. I'm in a rut. I haven't done anything. What's the first thing that you would tell them to do to get out of that rut and take some action toward healing?

Jim Burns: Well, I do two things real quickly. One is I would, bring people around me. I love the battle between the Amalekites and the Israelites. Moses got weary, as we do, and he had people help him with, keep those staff up. And so they held his arm, literally held his arm So I think I would get some people around me and then I would take some super baby steps to show love to my children, no matter who they are, no matter. No matter what they're doing. And I probably wouldn't put too much of my nose into all of their business as much as just show them with love who is their greatest cheerleader, who is their greatest lover. And if it's a parent who even they know, they disagree, if that's the case, then that's going to keep them grounded, even when you don't know that they're grounded because they're still smoking pot or they're still, you know, sexually acting out or whatever it might be.

Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I talked to a dad not too long ago, Jim, who was telling me about being estranged from his adult daughter. And he said that he had not talked to her in a number of years, a very long time. But then he said he drove by her house every single day. And I said, does she know that you drive by your house? And he said, no, I don't know. And I'm like. I mean, it just really was a picture to me. Jim, I think there's a lot of families out there who just driving by the house, just hoping something magical will happen. But we have got to take steps towards, intentionally towards healing and hope. And not everybody has to know everything, because you do want to protect your kids dignity and protect the privacy of some of the details of their story. But somebody needs to know something. And so I would encourage you reach out. Maybe that's a pastor, maybe that's a counselor, maybe that's a trusted friend. Maybe it's talking to your spouse about it for the first time. Something just acknowledging the hurt that's there and thinking, what do we need to do to move forward and then be bold enough to take that step of faith. Jim, where can we find your book?

Jim Burns: the book's anywhere you can go to, you know, Amazon. you can go to homeward.com and learn more about it. We have a great course that we've developed. Really, we're getting better at these courses. So churches sometimes will come together and get people together and they'll do the course. So homeward.com and any place books are sold are there. I just saw it in the Barnes and Noble and I was like, wow.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, Barnes and Noble. That's big time, Jim. Well, we will put all of the links in our show notes. You can get those from, from our show notes and have access to all of those resources. And if this is you and you're walking through this. I pray as I always do, that, even in the middle of that messiness, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you and give you peace. But more than that, today I pray that the Lord would give you hope that the God of all comfort would step into your relationship and that you would see healing. Thanks so much for joining us. We'll see you right back here tomorrow. Have a great day.

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Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.