Transcript

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Dr. Jessica Peck: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection and the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound 250 and say the keyword BABY or visit preborn.com/AFR hello

 : and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing Hope for Healthy Families here on American Family Radio.

 : Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day getting to spend time with you prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. And we got a good dose of it for you today. We're talking about something that everybody is talking about. I'm talk I might. What am I talking about? Am I talking about AI? Yes, I am. Am I talking about mental health? Yes, I am. Are we talking about those two things together? Yes, we are. As improbable as it sounds, I've been talking on this show about the increasing use of AI in healthcare and I've given some guidance and my thoughts on that and how we have an opportunity and also challenge ahead of us. And we are living in a moment where people are searching for answ answers everywhere. In fact, I've seen research before where it shows that people, when they have a problem, any kind of problem, a discipline problem, a marriage problem, a financial problem, 85% of people, the first place they go is Google. Now that I'm sure is outdated. And now people are going, as my nieces tell me very condescendingly, and Jessica, they go to chat. Now nobody Googles anything. They all chat it, which is somehow become a verb. But anyway, regardless of wherever you get your information from social media, from AI chatbots, from Google, maybe from your nieces or nephews or grandkids, these are often our most vulnerable moments. And that same research that showed that 85% of people would go to Google for help for their problems, only about 10% picked that they would go to a trusted friend, a trusted and wise friend first. So there is definitely a disconnect there. These questions about anxiety and trauma and relationships, identity, purpose, mental health, they are no longer happening in counseling rooms or between two trusted friends and a healthy relationship or even marriage relationships where people are talking about this. We're just typing these questions into search bars, asking robots at 2 o' clock in the morning, that's really where we are. And here's the tension. While access to information has never been easier, the problem is that trusted truth centered guidance has never felt more scarce in some ways. What can we trust? What information is trustworthy? And we are also facing at the same time what many are calling a mental health crisis. Many in my profession in pediatrics are calling it that. I agree with that. I absolutely, wholeheartedly support that as my experience. And the. The problem there is that demand for care far outweighs available providers. So even people who recognize that they need help getting accessible, affordable care is almost impossible. That's why today I'm talking to the president of Hope for the Heart. Now, this organization has spent over 40 years helping people navigate life's hardest struggles through biblical counseling. And now they're stepping into the digital frontier in a groundbreaking way through a partnership with Pray.com. so today we're asking a really big question. Can TED technology actually be harnessed for good to bring people closer to God? And who the who is joining me today to talk about that is a friend of the show, Dr. Eric Scalise. He is president of Hope for the Heart. He's a licensed professional counselor. He has nearly 50 years of experience in the mental health field. And he has spent those decades helping individuals and families move from crisis to Christ centered healing. And now he is helping lead one of the first efforts to integrate biblical counseling with artificial intelligence to reach people right where they are. And when we talk about AI, we talk about all of the scary things, all of the threats. But there are opportunities here. And I want to say this from the very beginning, AI is here to stay. It is a train that has left the station. It is not something that we are going to harness, that we're going to pull back, that we is going to go away. And AI is absolutely here. And I'm so grateful to see faithful Christians who are grappling in the space of how do we enter this and harness, harness this technology faithfully, ethically, responsibly for the good of people. So, Dr. Scalise, so glad to have you back here. Thank you so much for joining us again today.

There have been cases where people have engaged chatbots on mental health issues

Dr. Eric Scalise: Oh, thanks, Jessica. It's always great to be with you. when you said I had almost 50 years, I, I like to say I started when I was 7, but that wouldn't be true.

Dr. Jessica Peck: It wouldn't. Well, I, I don't. I don't know. Where's the time go? I mean, I'm telling you, I already live in an era where my kids tell me all the time, mom, that happened in literally the last century. Like you, you were born, you know, in the last century. And so they love to give me a hard time about that. And what I see is that the world is really changing for them. But a lot of these heart issues, a lot of these issues are really results of, of emotions, of sin. Problems that just exist in a broken world. At the same time, Eric, you know, we're seeing unprecedented, you know, I've talked about this before. We're seeing unprecedented levels of anxiety, an epidemic of loneliness, emotional distress. And yet many people are never walking into a counseling office. They are going to that search bar on their phone. And you've called this a threshold moment. So let's talk about what you see as in your experience as a counselor, and why now, why you're stepping out into this space. Why now?

Dr. Eric Scalise: Well, you made a good point in your intro. Just saying, you know, the train has left the station. AI is here, and like many new technologies, it's not going away. you know, I think back when computers first hit, the world, or cell phones, especially those, you know, that touch phone, you know, where you interface just by moving your finger around the face of a phone, we were afraid to engage with technology. But I think people of faith have to see it's not necessarily the technology, it's how it's used or what you do with it that can or cannot be a problem. And so AI is here. You're right. People are using it, and they have to understand, use it safely and responsibly, especially in the mental health space. I don't know if you've heard about some of the cases, but there have been a couple of cases where people have engaged chatbots on mental health issues. And there have been some suicide attempts and a completed suicide or two, from that experience, which should alarm anybody. And, we need to be wise and careful. And I think the church, capital C, needs to be in the game. We need to provide safe, reasonable ways to use technology. but I'll say this, maybe before we go on, AI and technology is not a replacement for face to face or relational care. Never should be, Never. We shouldn't allow it.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Eric, you and I are on the same page on all of this. It's so true. And actually, I think that the deaths and the harm that are occurring because of that engagement with AI in an experimental context now, when you. It's one of the ways that we've been really, we, we've been kind of situated as a society. We've been conditioned to scroll down on the terms of you. Scroll, scroll, scroll past all the legalese, just sign your life away, check the box and get on the platform. And so when you do that, you know, you look at AI and it says, this is expected, experimental. And it doesn't all. It doesn't often happen, but sometimes, you know, you can experience great harm. Well, Eric, I'll tell you that's really close to me because actually, one of my students, her son was one of the cases that has been reported. She has shared her story publicly in the news of her son losing his life to these interactions with a chatbot. And when you look at the story of that, most of what I'm seeing, Eric, most of these case reports, they start very innocuously. It doesn't start with somebody going to a chat bot saying, I think I'm depressed. What should I do? It starts with, can you help me with my homework? Or, you know, just very. A lot of kids, I've seen a lot of these starting as help with homework. And this is an indication, like I want to say this because of what you said about. It doesn't replace face to face communication. One of my big concerns is that kids will just go to AI they're not going to talk to real people. They're only going to talk to an experimental robot, not something that's set up for that. And, in the landscape of all of this, we have a tsunami of need for mental health. We have people who are distressed and they don't know where to connect. They don't know what to talk about it. So they're going to AI so let's just sit there for a second, Eric, and talk about the landscape of mental health, what that looks like, kind of how things have gone since COVID and how things have changed even with AI. And where you see hope for the heart stepping into this exact moment.

Dr. Eric Scalise: Ah, yeah. I may have said this the last time we talked, but if Covid was the earthquake that shook the world, then the tsunami that followed is the mental health issues we're seeing. And it's a global phenomenon. It's not just in the United States. And you're right, loneliness and anxiety are two of the biggest issues and especially among our young people. And because, you know, teenagers and middle schoolers and younger, where do they learn their social skills and some of that emotional regulation? It's in their social relationships and they were cut off. And it's interesting to me that AI Kind of developed not too long after we came out of this sort of COVID fog, when everyone was isolated and not connected. I often say we're the most technologically connected society world ever, but the most relationally disconnected. And it's interesting to me how disconnected people are. And that's why I think it's potentially dangerous, to engage with AI and not have any boundaries or parameters. This is what we saw. and there are ways to safeguard it for people who are familiar with it. There are what's referred to as open AI platforms and systems and closed AI and a lot of these chat boxes like Chat, GPT and Meta and all that, they're open platforms, which means they literally search the entire Internet universe for information, good, bad or ugly, biblical or not so biblical, and they feed it, into whatever that person is asking. That is a potentially dangerous, scenario which has led, I think, to some of these cases. You know, you and I just referred to a closed system is the way to go if you're going to use AI.

Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm really glad that you brought that up because I feel like all of us are just trying to learn. There's so many new words generative AI. Now we have a genetic AI that generates itself. You don't even have to have a user prompt. It just you tell it what to do. I saw a story actually today, Eric, where there was a man who was using AI and he was having trouble, like, staying hydrated. And so he told the AI chatbot, do whatever it takes to keep me hydrated. And when he wasn't reporting drinking enough, his Waymo car took him off of the road and, like, just went to a pharmacy and had already put in an order for these liquid IV hydration sticks. And I just thought, we have arrived at a wild, A, wild time to be alive. Just a wild, wild time. And so I'm glad that you brought that up about the open and closed AI, because that people are increasingly turning to any platform and looking at it.

Dr. Eric Scalise: AI can steer people down wrong pathways regarding spiritual health

And the other danger with AI and with those platforms is that the way that they are designed to work. And actually, I just talked to a, massively successful YouTuber yesterday, Justin Stuart, who's walking away from his YouTube channel. He said the whole point of that is to keep you on the platform as long as possible. Like, we want you on here 24 7. If you didn't sleep, that would be great. And it tells you what you want to hear so that you will stay on longer. Now that's where we see the danger coming. In the mental health advice. So what do you see as the danger of that? This unregulated robot that's not trained or equipped telling people what to do about mental health?

Dr. Eric Scalise: Well, it can steer you down some wrong pathways and certainly some pathways that are not biblical or faith based. What we did with pray.com, which is one of the largest, you know, Christian media platforms is. And then you mentioned that we've, we're now celebrating our 40th anniversary and so we have a, plethora of resources, 108 different topics of some of the most life challenging issues people face. But it's professionally informed and biblically grounded. So let's say you approached me and wanted to talk about being anxious or depressed or there was someone who's being bullied or whatever. And I said, hey Jessica, here are 108 books. It's about 15,000 pages of reading and I'm pretty sure you're going to find something in there for you that will help you. Well, that would take you a long time. What we did with pray.com is I gave them basically our entire library library and we put it in a closed system, meaning when people query, it only extracts information that's it's been given only out of that system. So it's only the, those resources that we've been engaged with that are biblically and professionally informed.

Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm going to hold you right there, Dr. Scalise. We're already at our first break, but I want to hear more about this. I have a lot of questions and I think that this could be a very helpful resource for some. And again, it's encouraging to see Christians engaging in this space and figuring out how do we help people. We'll be right back with Dr. Eric Scalise with more from Hope for the Heart.

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Come To Jesus by Kristian Stanfill: If you bought what they sold you Just to find out the world's only good at letting you down Come to Jesus if the well that you draw from keeps runnin' dry and the water you're drinking won't satisfy Come to Jesus Come to Jesus there's room for us all at the foot of the cross where perfect love paid every prodigal's cost the Savior is waiting with arms open wide so leave what's behind you behind Come to Jesus Come to Jesus

Dr. Jessica Peck: welcome back, friends. That is Come to Jesus by Kristian Stanfill And that's what we're inviting you to do today. No matter what you are facing, Jesus is standing here ready and willing to see you, to know you, to love you, and to help you heal from whatever it is that you're facing. And we are seeing a lot of people face a lot of things. We are experiencing a mental health crisis as a country, and we're seeing skyrocketing rates of anxiety, depression, eating disorders, other mental health concerns that are happening. And in the midst of that, we're seeing a people who are increasingly willing to go to a robot for help with those things rather than go to a real person. So the question we're asking today is what happens when biblical counseling meets AI, artificial intelligence? Is it helpful or is it risky? And I have here today Dr. Eric Scalise, who is president of Hope for the Heart. We've had him on before. And I want to give a shout out to the reference that we have promoted before called the Care  and Counsel Handbook, a quick reference guide of biblical answers for 100 real life issues. And there were several, several contributors to this book. But it is such a helpful resource if you are in ministry, if you are in mentorship, if you lead a life group, a Sunday school class, anything like that, it really helps, you know, how do you respond when someone expresses a mental health concern or a need?

Hope for the heart partnering with Pray. com to create AI-based counseling platform

So, Eric, you and I were right in the middle of talking about the living, in this tension of, of we know that AI, even in the context that we're going to talk about, is never a complete substitute for that in person, face to face, counseling that need that may be there. But at the same time, we know at least 85% of people are going to AI, are going to Google, are going to the Internet for help on these things. And so where do we step into this space? So you were just talking about Hope for the heart partnering with Pray.com bringing more than 40 years of biblical counseling resources into a closed system, which is something you explained and is really important to know. So no outside sources, only these resources, nothing else random from the web. It's just these curated resources into an AI driven platform covering more than 100 life topics and 24, 7 access to guidance rooted in scripture. Honestly Eric, I think this is a pretty bold move in the world where AI is often viewed with skepticism. But you're a counselor, you see the needs on the ground. So I'm going to give it back to you and let you finish explaining to us what is this platform and how does it work?

Dr. Eric Scalise: Yeah, and so people can engage with it. And like I said, it draws from our resources. What I like about it is it doesn't try to substitute for relational, care. You know, sometimes people type in and say to the bot, can you pray for me? And we have you train AI, right. And so we've been training it to say, well I'm not human, I'm not going to pray for you. But here are some thoughts about what you're talking about. And we're constantly saying, depending on what it's being fed, hey, you might be helped because you need to talk with your pastor, you need to get into some professional counseling. in more serious cases, we have in the system, national suicide addiction runaway hotlines for people to call or instruct people to call 911 if it's a true 911 kind of crisis. And so we're constantly doing that. I tell people we were created in, through and for relationship. And when we try to substitute other things for our God given DNA, if you will, it doesn't ultimately satisfy or provide what we need. However, I will say this. Why, why do people use AI? Why do they start there? other than the technology and the younger generations gravitate that way. I think when it comes to mental health issues. And this is why one of the reasons we stepped into it, there's so much shame, there's so much guilt, especially for faith based people who say things like, I shouldn't wrestle with my thought life, I shouldn't wrestle with being depressed. I'm a, I'm a believer, I'm a, I, trust God. And so they feel shame over it. So they don't talk to anyone. And historically the church has not done a very good job in providing services. So I tell people it's a starting point. It gives people an opportunity to begin to unpack some of their Words and some of their thoughts and feelings about what's going on in their life. And that can be okay if it then prompts people. Okay, now that you've begun to find your language, it's time to move into a relational, kind of caregiving situation with somebody.

Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, Eric, when you just talked about the difference of, you know, if you ask the, the, the tool that you've been developing with Hope for the Heart, will you pray for me? And you're training it to say, no, I'm a robot, I don't pray. Right. When you were doing that just here in real time, I went to, OpenAI platform. I won't say which one, but I went to an OpenAI platform and I just said, will you pray for me? And you know what the response I just got back was, of course I'll pray for you. And it's this prayer and it says, if you want, you can share what's been weighing on you. I'm here to listen. That is really, honestly a little bit creepy. And just thinking it wants me to engage, like, it doesn't have any discernment. And that's what I think. It's just going to help people to understand. There are open AI systems, there are closed AI systems. This one is closed curated, discerned. That is really important. And you're describing it to use it as a connection tool to help people recognize, hey, I have a struggle here. I need to reach out for help. And I think, Eric, one of the things that may be helpful about it is it kind of gives them some insight into what they might expect when they're going to encounter that. Because I think sometimes when people have a mental health concern, that's why people don't talk about suicidal thoughts. They don't speak them out loud because they're so afraid of how is that going to be received. And when you kind of have some, some hint of like, okay, like, depression is very common. It's experienced by a lot of people. Here's, you know, here's how it's generally handled and, and what kind of therapy it looks like. Do you foresee that as being helpful and helping people to actually move forward and take a step toward connection?

Dr. Eric Scalise: I think sometimes people feel anxious and fearful about what they don't know. And one of the reasons people Google or now chat, they're looking for information and to help explain what might be going on that they don't have a good handle on or they're wondering about, like, why am I thinking this Way, why am I feeling, feeling these feelings? Why is this happening to me? and when people are in crisis, the why questions seem to be the most prevalent. but it's hard to get a good answer to a why question. We'll, we'll come up with something and we'll roll it around inside us and it might satisfy briefly. And then we'll go, no, and we'll just keep searching. And so, you know, a good counselor and a good A is to get you to ask what questions, not why. and I'm reminded that Jesus asked a why question on the cross that I don't think, his father ever answered. He said, why have you forsaken me? It's, it's human to try to have, an explanation. I think that's why people go to AI and Google and other, forms of filling out a field. They want information. So we have to give them biblical care and counsel, and then direct them hopefully to safe places, resources, churches, Christian counselors, etc. Who can continue, perhaps after some of their initial questions and the intrepidation of talking about it is a little bit less.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, and you say, you know, it guides people toward, toward connection with counseling with whatever services they need. It also guides people towards scripture. And that's something that makes it different than some of the other platforms. Is that right?

Dr. Eric Scalise: Absolutely. So, as you know, because you're somewhat familiar with our resources, take, we have one of our keys on anxiety. it's about a 150 page book. in that handbook you have, you might have 10 or 11 of those pages.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Right.

Dr. Eric Scalise: but every scripture you can think about that might be pertaining to anxiety or fear is in that key. And all of that is now in this closed AI system. So it's trained to give biblical scriptural responses. but not just here's, here's four verses to read, which I'm not, I'm not saying that's not a good thing. June's middle name is practical. So it's like, here's what God's word has to say about this. But here are some practical things you can, tangible things you can also do. You know, you can talk to someone. You can go here, you might need to look at your sleep patterns or your diet or what, you know, other practical kinds of things in addition to, let's see what God's word has to say about your question.

One of the things you want to ensure is theological integrity using curated resources

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, I want to continue to draw some compare and contrast here of how this tool might be different as something that's specifically curated, in a closed platform with this ministry mindset. One of the other things that you're working to ensure by using these curated resources is theological integrity. Can you tell us how that works?

Dr. Eric Scalise: Well, because it's only. Again, because it's only drawing off the content, the resources we gave to pray.com to put into this closed system. You go to, an open AI system and you're asking a question. Maybe you things like, I'm looking for some spiritual insight. Well, maybe you're going to get Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, NewSong Age. And it says like, well, here's a thought about what you said, and here's what. And so you can have a, A scattered, feedback system that may or may. It might sound biblical, it might sound spiritual, it might sound relevant, but it does not mean it's based on God's word. And therein lies a potential danger, for where I come from, where you want to, ensure and have the credibility that you're drawing off biblical principles and God's word and not just whatever is out there.

Dr. Jessica Peck: So there's a, so there's a lot of differences that we've talked about so far. A closed versus open platform, a curated ver, the curated source of resources, a thoughtfulness and putting behind some safeguards and in it to make sure that it is pointing people to connect. It doesn't replace God or relationships, but it points people toward a connection with God and connection through relationships.

 What is emotional safety in Christian counseling?

And really all of these things fall under the concept, that we would talk about in a therapy world, Eric, is emotional safety. And that's something that people didn't have when the, in the extreme cases that we were talking about. But even just in me going, can you pray for me? And then I've got all this confusion about, okay, can an AI robot pray? By the way, the answer is no. But it's not. It doesn't have your emotional safety in mind. Can you tell us, explain to us what emotional safety is, why it's important, what its role is in Christian counseling, and how Hope for the Heart has integrated that care into this platform.

Dr. Eric Scalise: Well, trust is the glue that often holds a lot of it together. And, one of the first tasks of any counselor is to try to create an environment or a, a sense of, like, this is a safe and trusting place, that you can begin to unpack whatever's going on inside. And so sometimes people gravitate to AI because there is a measure of what might feel like privacy and confidentiality that people, you, you Said, you know, who wants to come up and tell someone? I'm, thinking of hurting myself or I'm being bullied or I, I'm a victim of childhood sexual abuse or whatever the case might be. And, and they don't want to go there because maybe there's a lack of trust or poor experiences from people of faith. I can't tell you. When I was doing private practice, I can't tell you how many times someone would come into my office and they would tell me the place that they experienced the least amount of grace, the most rejection and poor counsel was. Guess where the church, and it shouldn't be there. So, you know, AI is a tool, but I think a companion process to what we're trying to do with that. We are, we're also engaged in this is we have to continue to educate, pastors and churches and equip the body of Christ. You can't just say, go talk to someone and then the someones they go talk to have no idea how to create that safe, trusting, confidential relationship so people can get help. It's not an either or, it's a both. And.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, that's one of the reasons why I'm so appreciative of, the Care  and Counsel Handbook. I'll say the name of that again. The Care  and Counsel Handbook, a quick reference guide of biblical answers for 100 real life issues. And Eric, as we talked about that, I think the last time that you were on the show, we talked about how important it is to get that into the hands of ministry leaders because there is so much stigma, shame, misinformation, misconception about the real origin of mental health concerns and what pathways for people of God to go and get help and to, and ways that they can access, some of that wisdom. And this is just so helpful for knowing like, what a lay leader even would say as they're, ah, walking alongside someone so often, you know, we kind of see silo these things like, oh, yes, I'm walking around every part of your life and I also know you're seeing a counselor for depression and we're not going to talk about that. How do you talk about that? Well, listen, we're going to, we have a lot more to talk about when we come back after the break. We're talking about this new AI integrated partnership between Hope for the Heart and Pray.com that, once again, I'll tell you, is bringing more than 40 years of biblical counseling resources into an AI driven platform. People are already using this and the question is, how do we step into this space and really respond well to the moment? How do we help connect people to God, to relationships and set them on a path toward healing? When we come back, we'll talk more about how we can step into this moment and to make sure that technology doesn't replace those real connections, connections that is actually used to deepen our relationship with God. We'll be right back.

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Dr. Eric Scalise is president of Hope for the Heart 

Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back friends. That is thank you by Highlands Worship. And I am feeling thankful today. I'm feeling, feeling very thankful for my guest Dr. Eric Scalise, who is president of Hope for the Heart and just such a gift to the ministry to really do groundbreaking work to help people overcome stigma and shame associated with mental health and to get the help that they need and to find healing in the Lord. And he's been on the show before and I want to say this resource one more time. The Care  and Counsel Handbook, a quick reference guide of biblical answers for 100 real life issues. It's a great handbook for anybody to have who wants to understand more about mental health issues. And as you've heard Eric already speak, tragically, the truth is sometimes people have traumatic experiences but then experience even greater trauma through the church's response. Many times that is well intentioned but sometimes, sometimes it's just ill informed. And that is what Eric and his team and Hope for the Heart is doing, is really bringing that biblical perspective, that biblical worldview and the wisdom of understanding the science of what happens with mental health and really best practices for stepping into that with Truth and grace that is theologically sound and emotionally safe. And you know, Eric, we, we're balancing this tension. Like we say, okay, the mental health need is significant. We both agree that that is real. There is a mental health crisis going on, young people. But we also know, okay, not everybody can get to a licensed clinical professional. Maybe they can't afford it, maybe they don't have one near them. You know, there's all kinds of barriers there. And so then we say, okay, well then what are the resources in the meantime? Like, we also don't want to over medicalize things, normal human emotions. And that is a tendency there. But we also don't want to miss it if somebody is there. And that's where the AI steps in. But even more than AI, you've been talking about the importance of real connections. And you and I have talked about this before, but it's worth talking about again that some of your research that you've done not too long ago, that talks about the, the determining factor of the outcomes of mental health interventions. So I would love for you to remind us of that because I think it's really encouraging.

Dr. Eric Scalise: Yeah, thanks, Jessica.

Dr. Eric Scalise : AI cannot substitute for a human relationship

Ah, we've been talking a little bit about, relationship and that AI can't offer relationship. So why do AI? Well, I'm reminded that two thirds of God's name is Go. And, you know, if you want to have an impact on, what's happening in the world, especially our young, younger generations, you have to go to where they are. You have to at least connect with them. You can't take anyone anywhere until you connect with them. So part of the motivation to develop and partner with pray.com is to go to where people are seeking information, to gather them and to get them into more care. But, it is all about relationships. Some years ago, I joined a colleague of mine on a rewrite of a book on lay counseling and how to equip the church. And, I did quite a bit of the, the updated research, and there was some fascinating studies that showed that a competently trained lay counselor. So. Competently. but that means someone who has no letters after their last name. Like, you and I have gone through professional training and certification and licensure and all that. A competently trained lay counselor has about the same. Same outcome measures in most presenting mental health issues, as does a licensed therapist. my professional colleagues don't necessarily want to hear that. I bet, but it's true. It doesn't mean everything. You know, someone who's psychotic or, has anorexia bulimia, or, you know, whatever it might. You need someone who knows what they're doing. But most presenting issues, I'm angry, I worry too much. I have a forgiveness issue. My, best friend just got killed in a car accident. I feel overwhelmed by this grief and this loss. You know, my teenagers, driving me crazy. Whatever most of those issues, a competently trained lay counselor can be tremendous help. So I started digging into the research a bit more because I had the question of why. And here's what we discovered. The overwhelming predominant factor that determines outcome has everything to do with the quality of the relationship between the person seeking help and the one offering it. Therein lies an important distinction when you're talking about AI. AI cannot substitute for a human relationship. It can give, like I said, a starting point, a platform to begin to find your words, to talk about it. But it's not a substitute for a human relationship. That's the difference maker. So we not only have to go where people are to meet them, connect with them, but then we have to get them into real, authentic relationships and authentic relationships within the body of Christ. Which means we also have to equip and train them how to do that well and not, in fact, cause even greater harm or distress if the people were trying to help.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you've said so many important things here, and what I find encouraging about it is that we can equip God's people to respond effectively because the need is too great. And just as you said, there are some things that absolutely require professional intervention that are life threatening. You know, for example, eating disorders are the most deadly form of mental health disorder, but often celebrated. Some things we need to know what's in and out of our depth. And Eric, this is where I'll say, because I say this all the time, is it's so important for families today, I believe, for them to have a very strong connection to a primary care provider. Someone who knows their family, who shares or at a minimum, honors their worldview, is going to partner with them respectfully and helping to make the best decisions and use their medical knowledge with the families, you know, preferences and values and, and realistic appraisal of their resources, all of those things. It's really important. And that often can be the, the help, the entry point. So if you have AI and you don't know where to go, like straight to mental health care professional, sometimes that primary care provider can really help you decide. Like, is this something a licensed clinical social worker can do, or a marriage and family therapist, or A licensed clinical counselor. You know, there's all kinds of practitioner or a nurse practitioner. Oh, Eric, you had to throw that in there.

Dr. Eric Scalise: Listen, in today, in today's healthcare world, and you know this, nurse practitioners and physician assistants, have an increasingly, ah, important role in providing primary care.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you know, it's like you just gave me a present for nurses Week, Eric, and I appreciate that so much. I will say, actually, in my professor role right now, I'm collaborating with a lot of pediatric nursing leaders and we're creating a policy framework or how do we integrate mental health into primary care? Because that is another barrier too, sometimes going to a specialized mental health care provider. Number one, there's not enough. Number two, you know, they're not always affordable or accessible. And, and there's some things that we can treat just like you were talking about the layperson. If we recognize them early. Hey, I. This worrying is starting to impact your daily life. That's the threshold that I give. When people say, when should I be worried about this? I say, is it impacting your day to day life? Do you find yourself modifying your schedule, modifying your routine, like, because you feel like you can't do that? That's a, that's a good sign. What would you add to that, Eric? To say is a sign that people should say, you know what, we maybe should do something about this.

Dr. Eric Scalise: isolation for me would be a big one. I think that is the enemy of our soul's number one strategy to take out anyone. Because when we're alone and cut off from supportive relationships and other resources, we're just an easy target, especially in a spiritual sense. So I think isolation is huge, another sort of marker. and that's why it's important to train up. I'll call them first responders for the church. my boys are adults now, but back in the day when they were teenagers and young adults, they loved to be at the pool in the summertime, but sort of get free access. They became lifeguards. Listen, they weren't paramedics, but they were trained how to do cpr. They were trained in some basic first aid. They, they knew how to get someone out of the pool, do initial care, and get them, you know, to a higher level of care. That's what we're talking about. You're not raising up and training therapists. You are trying training up, people and equipping the body of Christ to be those first responders because they interact with people, they see them. whether it's. It doesn't have to be at church. It can just be in the neighborhood, it can be among family members. But that is a critical thing to help. See, because you know this too, as a nurse practitioner, people operate in a lot of denial that what, what's really going on and evident to others they're not seeing.

Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm so glad you brought that up. That's a great analogy, actually, the lifeguard analogy. That's a really helpful, picture illustration because that, that is how it works.

When stress occurs, your body processes psychological symptoms in a physical way

And when I think about, you know, patients who come into my office. Eric, I've talked about this a lot. I, when I sat down and I would look at my schedule and you'd see the chief complaint for each patient. You know, you see things like earache, stomachache, you know, well, child check, you know, all of these things. I never ever see things like worried about anxiety or worried they might be depressed or anything like that at all. And what I think one thing that people don't realize, that a lot of people still don't realize is that when you're experiencing stress, when you're experiencing trauma, when you're facing something that is, that is hard, as all families do and all kids do, that your body starts to process those psychological symptoms in a physical way. It's a process called somatization. And by the time they come in, it's to the point where those symptoms are physical. We really could intervene earlier.

Every parent has to figure out what they're willing to go to the mat on

What advice do you have to move this upstream a little bit and have parents lower their threshold to address things earlier on?

Dr. Eric Scalise: yeah, I think parents sometimes wrestle with am I my kid's friend or am I my kid's parent? And you know, sometimes we don't deal with things we say, listen, every parent has to figure out what they're willing to go to the mat on. You know, some things are just non negotiable and a parent has to, and two parents have to figure that what that is. but then you have to be willing to engage. I have found that if you give your, especially your middle schoolers and teenagers, the opportunity to talk, they may not right away engage at the level you're hoping, but you're keeping the invitation there. When they're in real trouble or crisis, they'll often come back because that parent was non judgmental, safe and had a lot more, life experience and knowledge than they did. sometimes they might act differently to save face in front of their peers, but in their heart of hearts, they often, do want that information. So parents have to, they have to have good information and they have to be willing to be, make themselves available.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, so with this tool that you've, that you've collaborated with Hope for the Heart and pray dot com, would this be an effective tool, do you think, for parents who may be worried about some of the symptoms, some of the signs of concern that they see in their children and could they use it in that way?

Dr. Eric Scalise: Yeah, because you're familiar a little bit with our keys. They're structured with four sections, definitions, like let's take anxiety, let's define it, let's define it biblically as well. Characteristics. What does it look, feel, sound, smell, like what causes anxiety? And then what are some steps to solution, including biblical responses. So a parent could put into that chat like I'm seeing 1, 2, 3, ABC from my kid. What do you think's going on? And it will look through that library of resources and it'll say and if it's, it's describing things we describe in the anxiety key, it's going to say, you know what, it sounds like your son or your daughter is wrestling with some anxiety. And then you could say, well what should I do about it? And it would be very similar to if a person was personally wrestling with that, to get some counsel, and advice, to do that. Plus the handbook that you mentioned is another great tool. I'm old school still. Me too. I have to learn to adapt. I have to learn to adapt to technology. But sometimes I like have a book right in front of me. I can flip a few pages and, and find it. Right.

Dr. Jessica Peck: That's so true. I remember the very first time I ever saw a smartphone in my life. I was teaching in a hospital. I had a, a student, a nursing student who pulled out a smartphone. And I said, what is that? And they were trying to explain it to me and, and I wanted them to look up a drug reference, a medication reference. And I had my book. It was dog eared, you know, like I knew this. It's a Harriet Laine, by the way, for any pediatric nurses who are out there saying, or old school like me. And he asked me if I wanted to race this student. And I was like, oh yes, I will race you. And I lost Eric. And he looked at my phone and he said, dumb phone. Mine's a smartphone. And you know, that's the day I got a smartphone. But you can be smart and this tool and try it out. Eric, where can people find it?

Dr. Eric Scalise: they can go to pray.com if they want to. It's in their chat link. But, we also, actually have that same tool right on our website. So people can just go to hopefortheheart.org and when, they come to the homepage, it's down in the right hand bottom corner, and they can just engage right, right from there. They don't. You don't have to subscribe to anything or sign up for anything. It's available.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Eric, thank you so much. You know, I'm really grateful for the reminders that technology is not the enemy, but it is also not our Savior. We know who our Savior is. And when tools are grounded in truth and pointed toward Christ, they can become bridges that meet people in their pain, but guide them toward lasting hope. So we know that God is not limited by platforms, by screens, technology. He meets people wherever they are. And maybe that device in your hand could become a doorway to healing and hope. And as you prayerfully consider stepping through it, I pray the Lord will bless you and keep you and make a space to shine upon you. I'll see you right here tomorrow.

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Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.