Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, good morning and welcome to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. wanted to read to you from second Timothy, chapter four, the last chapter of that Paul ever penned. He said to Timothy, for I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight. I have finished the course. I have kept the faith in the future. There is laid up for me the crown of righteousness which the Lord the righteous judge will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but also to all who have loved his appearing.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Well.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: It is a great joy of mine today to welcome to the program one of my heroes in the faith, Dr. Paige Patterson. He is a theologian, seminary president, author, evangelist, and the former president of the Southern Baptist Convention. husband to Dorothy, father of two, and grandfather of how many, Paige?
Dr. Paige Patterson: But I have, three great grandchildren. Three.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Three great grands?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: How is that?
Dr. Paige Patterson: They're all under five years old. They're the recent ones on the block.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So just curious. I have, eight grandchildren. So are our great grands even greater than the grands?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes, they're a lot of fun. They really are.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Well, cool. Congratulations on that. Well, Dr. Patterson, I want to talk to you today about, an important subject, and that's the, the subject of fear. Finishing well, sprinting to the finish line, not limping to the finish line, not coasting to the finish line. And it seems like it's something that is hard for lots of Christians, especially as they get old. They kind of just, they lose this zeal. They lose the, the, the strength to keep going. you're not like that at all. You're going on mission trips, you're teaching a Sunday school class. You're doing lots and lots of things. Even as, you're health is not what it used to be 20 years ago, but you're still pushing forward and so the big question is, how are you able to do that?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Well, thank you, Pastor Schrieve. It's a joy to be with you today. And, let me say that, I am very concerned about, how I finish, because, like you, I've seen far too many, who have difficulty toward the end. I know that's a possibility for any of us. And so when people ask me, what are you doing to make a difference? I say basically three things. Number, one, I avoid at all cost, bitterness. You know, the Bible book of Hebrews says, be careful about a root of bitterness springing up in you. Now, it's very easy for folks, as I get into their senior years, to. To start contemplating all the bad things that have happened to them. And if you sit there and contemplate all the bad that has happened to you, you will be bitter.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Because there is plenty of bad that happens along the way. And thinking about that and cogitating on it and remembering it and thinking and wondering if you're going to be able to get even with your enemies and all of that kind of thing, those. The very worst thing you can do. And so I pray every day, dear God, do not allow a root of bitterness to spring up in me and defile many, not just yourself, but it defiles everybody else. Everybody that's near to you is hurt by your bitterness if that comes into play. And your church is hurt by your bitterness. And so keep having fun in life. Notice the funny stuff in life. notice all the funny things that happen to you, the crazy things you do all the time. You forget your car keys and lock them in the car. All the kinds of things that you do. When you get to be forgetful and old age and have fun out of it, don't grow bitter about it. That's the first thing. Second thing is learn to pray with. With specificity. Now, this is a, this is a real key, you know, Our prayer life tends to be pretty general. God bless all the missionaries and help them to do well. Yeah, ah, I don't really know one, but I'm sure there must be some out there. God bless them. No, pray two or three very specific prayers on a regular basis. Pray for somebody who's lost every day. If you don't know somebody that's lost, get found a way to get out, go sit in the mall and talk to people or do something like that. Find people that are lost, somebody that you can pray for every day. Find somebody that you know is suffering and you can pray for every day. As a matter of fact, if you're suffering, if you'll pray for other people that are suffering, it will lessen your suffering. And so pray with specificity. Pray for your church. Pray for your pastor. My pastor's a wonderful guy, but he is a guy. And so he makes mistakes like everybody else. I don't criticize his mistakes when he makes them. I think, well, at least I wasn't there and make that mistake. But what I'm going to do is I'm going to pray for him and hold him before God and ask God to bless him. So pray specifically and note down the prayers that God answers. And the third thing I would say to you is, whatever you do, stay busy. I know so many folks that are like, I am 84 years of age. I can't do what I used to could do. You know that my right eye was fairly good. I wasn't, a, top shot in the whole world, but I got a house full of animals to show that I could shoot.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
Dr. Paige Patterson: And, and I was good. I can't really see anymore. I'm blind in my left eye and I don't see very well on my right eye. Hey, that's part of the aging inevitability. And so what you have to do though, is don't let that sideline you. Find a way to stay busy. And I've stayed very busy. I'm 84 now, but I have stayed very, very busy. I've got four book contracts right now that I'm still working on to get that out. Well, not everybody's got to be an author. Not everybody's going to write. And I may not make all four of those, you know, but I'm going to try. And, and, and so the point is, find what you can do and stay busy. When you get, get bored and you sit around and contemplate how many toes you got on each foot. You are in serious trouble. You are a mark for the devil to shoot at. And he will shoot at you as sure as the world. Stay busy. More than you can possibly do. Stay busy. Keep your church in mind. Call people, you can't go visit them. I understand that, but get their phone numbers and call them and invite them to be in Sunday school. Whatever you do, stay busy in the work of the Savior and you won't have time to feel sorry for yourself.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen m to that. Okay, so four book contracts. What are these books about, Dr. Patterson?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Well, a little bit of everything. I am doing my, my own Memoirs. That's taking a lot more time than I thought it would because I thought I'd finished it, and I gave it to my editor to edit. My editor, my wife, she threw it back in my face, and she said, this won't do. and I said, well, I. I was afraid it was bad. She said, no, it's not bad, but it is not the truth. And she said, if you don't tell the truth, you're lying. And she said, you. You. And I said, well, I tried to keep it under 200 pages. People don't read much. She says, your memoirs, and you gotta write however much it is. Yeah. Oh, I have returned to the drawing board again, and I'm doing that. And,
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, let me. Let me interrupt you, Dr. Patterson. So writing your memoirs would be dredging up a lot of hurtful things people had done to you, would it not?
Dr. Paige Patterson: that was why I didn't want to do it. One of. One of the two reasons that I didn't want to do it. I didn't think anybody be interested in it either. And so, that was the other reason. But I didn't. I didn't want to do it because I didn't want to do that. But I'll tell you why I decided to do it. hunting Africa. One day, I, was closing in online, and, I knew that that line was very close, but I couldn't see it in the heavy stuff. And, at that point, I really wasn't ready. And my Ender belly guide touched me on the shoulder, which was a sign that I shouldn't say anything, but I should look at him, glanced at him, and he pointed down at my foot. And when I looked down at my boot, there was a fresh, very fresh huge line print right there. And I knew he saw the line, he saw the kitty. And so I moved my rifle, and I know more than move my rifle. The line appeared overhead, dropped at me. I had split second to make that final shot, and she died with her head on my left foot. I got thinking about that one day, and I thought, you know what? That's how I can do my memoirs. I'm going to call it, Paw Prince. And I'm going to talk about all the people whose prints have been left on my life. M. You'll be in there.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Oh, wow.
Dr. Paige Patterson: And, a lot of other people will be in there, and. And some people who won't ever have a biography written about me, they're going to be in this book because I'm going to tell about how they shaped my life. And in doing so, I'm going to be able to tell the story of my sorrows and heartaches and heartbreak breaks and tell them I believe with God, will help me in such a way that it will encourage people and not discourage.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. let me ask you a question, speaking of memoirs. So David talks to Solomon and he points out Shimei and he says, take note of him. do you think David was holding a grudge against him?
Dr. Paige Patterson: No, I think that, ah, David was hurt buying. And you don't just say one night when you go to bed, I'm going to get over my hurt. I'm not going to be hurt at this guy. people do hurt you, and you know that. You've had that experience yourself and you don't just get over the hurt. But what David knew was that it was not going to be right for him to do anything. He left that in the hands of God. And he said, you leave Shammai alone. God will take care of it. And sure enough, God did. Yes. So that's, that's the point. And that's the thing that, that I say. It doesn't do any good to be bitter against people. Being bitter against people who have, have harmed you, only hurt you. It doesn't hurt them a bit.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right. Dr. Patterson, how do you, how do you handle being around people that have been very ugly to you, very publicly ugly to you, and then you're going to see them at the Southern Baptist Convention or something like that? How do you, we have just about a minute and a half left. How do you interact with them?
Dr. Paige Patterson: I'm not going to answer that in this minute and a half because it's going to take me just a little bit longer. Next, next phase of the unit will do it. But let me say to you, that's where the fun of the Christian life comes in. I will say that much to you. The fun of Christian life, means that these people are expecting you to growl at them. And when you smile and you say, how you doing today? God bless you, it is absolutely the most unnerving thing that can possibly happen to them.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: I guess that's like pouring, hot coals on their head, as it says in book of, Romans, 12.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes. It doesn't really mean to hurt them. It doesn't mean that at all. It just means to surprise them with joy.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. Amen to that.
Dr. Paige Patterson: You leave it to God.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen. Well, we're talking to Dr. Paige Patterson, one of my heroes in the faith. And we're talking about finishing well, as Paul said, I have fought the good fight. I have finished the course. I have kept the faith. We want to be able to do that. We want to sprint all the way to the finish line, not limp across the finish line, not crawl across the finish line, but sprint all the way into the arms of Jesus. You're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. We'll be right back.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Don't go away.
: Candace talks about finding, out she was pregnant. Thankfully, an ultrasound provided by preborn allowed her to hear her baby's heartbeat. The sonogram sealed the deal for me.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: My baby was like this tiny little
: spectrum of hope and I saw his heart beating on the screen and knowing that there's life growing inside. I mean that sonogram changed my life.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: I went from just Candace to mom.
: Thank you to everybody that has given these gifts. You guys are giving more than money. You guys are giving love. Preborn currently has clinics that do not have ultrasound machines. Would you consider a leadership gift and sponsor a machine today? These life Saving machines cost $15,000 more than most centers can afford. Your donation will save countless lives for years to come. Dial pound250 and say the keyword baby or go to preborn.com afr. This is Real Truth for Today podcast of the program. Program are available on the podcast [email protected] now back to Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here on American Family Radio. I'm talking to one of my good friends and one of my mentors, Dr. Paige Patterson. He was my president at Southeastern Seminary when I was there as a student. And he finished up his presidency at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. written many books. He's a just a well known theologian, evangelist. I love that about him. He's got the heart of an evangelist. Former president of the Southern Baptist Convention. He has been the the whipping boy for many, many people that don't like his stands on things. And and many have publicly said ugly things about you, accused you of things you didn't do, sued you about things you didn't do. And so I was asking you right before the break, Dr. Patterson, how do you do when you have to encounter these people at the Southern Baptist Convention or a meeting or something like that? Because it's one thing to forgive a person from a distance, but then to be in their presence can be very Uncomfortable.
Dr. Paige Patterson: It can, but it could also be a lot of fun. And of course you have to make it. One of my constant accusers while he was Alive was, was Dr. Ken Chafin. Some of your listeners may even remember him. He's very colorful man, highly educated. And Dr. Chaffin and I had known each other actually for many, many years. But he became one who was most unhappy with me. And he would write columns that would occur in the newspapers about me on a regular basis. And so one night I was traveling home and I was reading my Bible on the plane and my Bible said something to me that was really disturbing. It said, return good for evil. And I thought about that all the way home on the airplane. I ah, just couldn't get rid of it. How do you return good for evil? And here was this article that Ken Chafin had written, basically questioning my Christianity and everything else had So what in the world. So the next day I'm sitting in my office and it finally occurs to me what I need to do. I walked across to the department store across the street, church down there. And I bought a really nice tie, really pretty expensive tie. And I wrote a note and put it with it And I said, Dr. Chaffin, you came to my mind today. I didn't say why you came to my mind today. And so I was thinking about you and I prayed my, I bowed my head and prayed that God would bless you day. And I just wanted you to have this tie as an indication of that. And until he comes page Patterson. And I sent it to him. Now I didn't think anything about it. I never heard from him. He never thanked me, never anything said. But just before Dr. Chaffin died, somebody said to him one day, Dr. Shaving, I like that tie you got on. And, and, and Ken was very straightforward with the guy. He said, yes, it's one of them that Paige Patterson gave me. And the guy was startling. He said, one of them he gave me. He said, yeah, I hadn't really kept count, but I think the last, I think he was 27 that he's given to me.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Wow.
Dr. Paige Patterson: And I hadn't kept count either, but that's about right. Yeah. and so, then Ken died and went to his grave. Well, he had to go to his grave knowing that I was not bitter against him. And that's important to me see that that happened. And I discovered that I could send a gift out of that. I discovered if you return good for Evil. You send a little gift, maybe a fruit bowl, maybe an arrangement of flowers. I like doing a tie because people wore them in those days and, and it was something that would be useful to them, and a little different from flowers, but do something, do something nice for them. Pray for those that despitefully use you. And, and so the Bible is very, very explicit in its instructions of what we do about people who have it in for us. That's where we exhibit the graciousness of Christ which has already been extended to us in his cross. Died for us and we certainly didn't deserve that. We deserved anything but. So that's why I say to people, find something definite to do to express your interest in this individual and God, will bless that all the days of your life as a result of that. Most of my most severe critics are people who I think would say, yeah, I don't agree with Paige about anything, but he has been nice to me. I think most of them would say that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: You know, I think they said that about Dr. Falwell too. he was nice to people. I remember asking him, and I know you were good friends with Jerry, but I remember asking him how do you deal with the Al Sharpton's of the world? He said, well he's just a person. He's wrong in his beliefs. But I can be kind to him as a person.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Man for whom Christ died. Yeah, that's right. If Jesus could die for him for sure I can find a way to be nice to him. Dr. Falwell is exactly right.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so Dr. Patterson, how do you handle feelings when it comes to somebody preaching falsehood, leading people astray because those people. It can be hard, I know for me to not demonize that person and really assign evil to. Because they are doing evil. How can you have a good heart toward them while still condemning what they're doing?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Well, I do think there are situations where a little bit of confrontation is necessary. Some years ago, I had a kinsman, Dr. Wayne Ward, who was professor at ah, Southern Seminary. And by the way a great preacher and by the way a consistent personal soul winner. And Dr. Ward greatly encouraged me in m. My ministry in many, many ways. But Wayne, who is related to me by marriage, fairly close relative, said some things about me that were not true in a pulpit in Louisville where he was speaking. And somebody sent me a tape of it. I listened to it and he accused me of not allowing my wife to teach because she was a Woman. And of course she was kin, to him. M. I was related by marriage. And so he was supposedly defending her, from my not allowing her to teach. Well, there were a couple of problems with that. Number one, I always had her teaching. And so it just simply wasn't true. And and so I did confront Dr. Ward with that, but my confrontation was not of a bitter kind. There are two ways to confront people. There is a confrontation with a view to stirring up hatred and distrust, and a confrontation that would have confronted him before the congregation that he had spoken. And I, wasn't interested in doing that. I was just interested in attempting to get him to stop saying something that he knew was not true. And so I wrote him about it and he wrote back a very nice letter. And he said, you're right, I should never have said that. And so, there's your case in point where, you may have to confront and you may try, may not succeed, may not get anywhere with it at all. But the point is that you don't want to confront in such a way that you take your hurt and impose that hurt on another individual. That's what you don't want to do
Pastor Jeff Schreve: when you're dealing with, wolves that are going after the sheep. because I struggle with that. It's hard not to be a little fired up over that and to want to silence that, that guy that's going to hurt people, with his ideology and things like that, false teachers and that kind of thing. So when you hear, you know, some of the, some of the crazies on Christian television, does, does that do something to you inside? It's just like that needs to be stopped, that is wrong, that's leading people astray.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Well, let's go to the Bible. Did the Bible writers ever confront anybody like that? Yes, they certainly did. In no uncertain terms. Paul confronts people all the time through the epistles and he's fairly, fairly straight with them. I think when you've got a situation where a person is, using a false doctrine, he's not trying to get at you personally, but he is using false, false teaching that will confuse and hurt the people and maybe even take people to hell.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes. I think that we have to confront them still. It's how you do it. It's not so much in what you do, it's more in how you do a thing than anything else. And I've always prayed, dear God, help me, to be able to find the way to confront and even confront Firmly where I have to. But at the same time, the guy to come away saying, well, I think maybe he loved me.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.
Dr. Paige Patterson: At least to be able to say that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, let me ask you this. Todd Frio brought this up as it related to Philip Yancey. He did a whole program about, you know, Philip was having an affair for eight years. It started when he was 68 years old. he confessed that at 76 and had to, you know, disengage from public ministry and that kind of thing. But he, he talked about, how guys have a tendency to soften theologically as they get older. let me ask you two questions on that. Do you think that's true and why do you think, if so, why do you think that is?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Well, yes, I do think it's true. And I've watched it myself across the years. And, first thing I'd say is, dear God, deliver me from that. help that not happen to me, because I've seen so many do it. And there is an addendum I would add to that too, that I think I don't believe. I remember seeing that from Todd Friel, for whom I have great respect, by the way. but, ah, I don't know that he added this thing. The other thing I've watched happen, I have watched ministers of the gospel cave in when their children are out of fellowship with God. you mentioned Jerry Vines while ago. One of the reasons I so honor Jerry Vines is that he went through a period where he had a boy who was not living in terrible sin or anything, but he was off the reservation, he wasn't doing right. Jerry never ceased loving that boy. He never ceased walking with that boy. But he never one time defended what that boy did. And, I had the same thing happen with, with my son for a while. And I tried. Lord, don't ever let me try to defend what he's doing that's wrong. I just kept praying and, and walking with him and sure enough, God brought him back. Nice. Pastor of, the Japanese, Baptist Church here in town. Oh, wow. And you know, God does things like that. But that's a weakness that so many pastors have. They fall and they soften on things that they preach when their children get into that sometimes. And so that's a warning I would have. And I think the reason we do it when we're older, when we have a tendency to get soft when we're older, is we just so much want to leave, a good impression with everybody, want everybody to love us when we die. Well, that is not dependent on doing wrong things, is dependent upon being right. And the right people will still love you. And so I think that's probably where it comes about. You don't have as much energy to struggle against things that you know are wrong. That's true. That's inevitable. But don't soften on what you taught to be the belief.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: You know, I was preaching through Dr. Patterson's preaching through judges. And, one of the things that's kind of, I would say, little known in the Christian community is how poorly Gideon finished. this great guy, I mean, he's obviously timid, but he has faith. And his faith is greater than his fear. And God uses him to deliver Israel, from the Midianites. But he doesn't finish. Well, we just have a couple minutes before the break. if I can tap into some of your wisdom there. What do you think? What do you think was the reason why Gideon kind of petered out toward the end?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Well, after. I don't know the reason, but I know the Bible is full of cases like that. I know it happened to Saul, it happened to Eli, it happened to Samuel. Of all people, Samuel has to be the greatest of all the, judges and the first of the prophets. My goodness, what a marvelous man of God he is. But his sons did not stay truthful to the word of God. And some well put up with it. Just such a tendency to do that. And I'm not sure why it happens. We love them, we want the best for them. But we cannot compromise God's word.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: No, m. We can't. Well, you're listening to Real Truth for today here on American Family Radio. Pastor Jeff Schrieve talking to one of my, heroes in the faith, Dr. Paige Patterson. And, Dr. Patterson is finishing well. He teaches his Sunday school class. How many are in your Sunday school class, Dr. Patterson?
Dr. Paige Patterson: We had 160 this week.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, a good sized church then.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Well, it's kind of a small church, but, it's meeting a need, I believe, and I'm grateful to have the opportunity. I appreciate Dr. Jefferson has given me that opportunity.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Preach is a. If you don't have a church, consider First Baptist Dallas and visit Dr. Paige Patterson's class. We have more with Dr. Paige Patterson. We're talking about finishing well here on American Family Radio. We'll be right back.
: If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff, email pastor jeffromhishheart.org now back to Real Truth for today. With Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to Dr. Paige Patterson. We're talking about finishing. Well, Psalm 90, 92. the Psalmist says this. I love this. It says, the righteous man will flourish like the palm tree. He will grow like a cedar in Lebanon, planted in the house of the Lord. They will flourish in the courts of our God. They will still yield fruit in old age. They shall be full of SAP and very green to declare that the Lord is upright. He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in.
Dr. Paige Patterson: In him.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: I want to be able to finish that way even in old age, to still yield fruit and to be full of SAP and very green. Dr. Patterson, you went on a mission trip just this last. What, last couple of months?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes. We were in Germany.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: And, you've been there many times?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes, I have, but I've been pretty much everywhere many times. Wife and I have been privileged to go to 147 countries.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. I was talking to Dr. Dean Sieberhagen. he was here at First Baptist Texarkana just the other Sunday. And, your name came up, and he had talked about Madagascar. Did you ever go to Madagascar?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes, I did. And, of course, I've got a student there now who, began the work, in Southern Madagascar. that's a very interesting story. Let me repeat it, if I may. when Thom Ellip was, the, head of the international, Mission Board of Southern Baptist Convention, he called me one day, and he said, Paige said, you know, we're trying to urge people to take a people group. And he said, I just think if, seminary would take one, maybe I could encourage the churches, too. He said, would you be willing to take an unreached people group? And, I said, no. And there was a long pause, and he came back on. He said, well, okay. But he said, you surprised me a little bit. He said, you never told me no before. And he said, so, I've got to be curious. Why do you say no? You. You won't take a group? And I said, because you won't do it like I want it done. And he said, well, I don't know that I want. How do I want it done? How do you want it done? And I said, well, if I take a people group, I want it to be a large people group, at least a million people. And I want, as far as you know, there not to be a single convert among them. Not a single Christian among Them and I want to be very difficult to get to. Right next to impossible to get to. And so he said, well, Page, we can agree to all that. We'll read all that. I said, I know it's fourth one's going to get you. I said, you have to agree that you will not appoint any missionaries from the International Mission Board until I give you a go on it. And he said, you're trying to get me fired. I said, no, I'm not. I said. And he said, well, you don't love our missionary. And I said, yes, I do. I think some of your missionaries are some of the greatest people I've ever known. I said, not that at all. But I said, if you look on your desk right there, there's a huge book. You never read the whole thing. Thom. I said, that's your book of rules and regulations for Southern Baptist missionaries. I said, there's far too many of them. It's impossible for anybody to read that book. No, I say, I know about it because I was on the mission board for a while and so I, I know about that book. Now you don't pay any attention to it really, but there are too many rules I don't want. And I said, if I do a people group, I've got to be free to do it my way. And so Thom said, let me call you back. So about three weeks later he called me. So you probably don't get me fired. But he said, I'm going to agree to your four, rules. And so I said, fine. Do you, have my people group? He said, I do. He says, I'd like for you to take the entendre People who are located on the southern end of Madagascar. Madagascar has been evangelized. Middle part of the country and all up north. But southern part of the island and Tandroy are called the People of the Thorn. And the reason they're called that is because there are no paved roads going in there at all. There are a million of them almost exactly. And you can't get to them because old thorn bushes and everything is almost impossible to get to them. And so nobody's ever really gone in there and tried. They're, they're superstitious, they're deep into, witchcraft and that kind of thing. And he said, just not. I said, that's the group I want. Exactly. Well, we went there thinking there were no converts. We found the convert. Now you gotta believe this is amazing. He had been led to the Lord when he took his mother into the hospital in Tanna, the capital. And while he was sitting with her, Campus crusade came by and led him to Christ M. He's back in Antandroi company country. He's sitting on his front porch and he knows he's a believer now. He doesn't know another believer in the whole world. He doesn't know the people who led him to the Lord. He doesn't know anybody. He's praying, Lord, I can't be the only person in the whole world. Lord, could you send somebody that, that I could talk to? He doesn't know. I got four guys from Southwestern, walking down his street right then and they're praying, Lord, could you lead us to somebody that would have a Bible study in his home? Yeah. And so they knock on his door. God has brought them together. He comes the Lord. He eventually says, I want to become a minister. He comes to Southwestern seminary, does a PhD with us, goes back to Madagascar, which is what folks all do, and goes back there and he starts a revival movement. They've got churches everywhere in Madagascar Land M and, and it's most beautiful thing you ever saw what all was going on down there. And now he started a Bible school.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
Dr. Paige Patterson: He's very well equipped to do that. So, all that. And that's the kind of thing that we need to have happen.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. That's exciting. Well, I love the fact that, now obviously one of your spiritual gifts is evangelism. I mean, you have such a heart for that. Not everybody has that. but I know you emphasize that when I was a student at Southeastern Seminary, when we had that first president's discussion, you emphasize that keep witnessing. Preaching from the pulpit is not witnessing. That's different. And I think a lot of guys get away from that.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes. And to our subject today. That's another reason why people play out in the long haul. They stop witnessing. there is always somebody to witness to if you'll just be alert to it. I've had the opportunity recently to lead my next door neighbor here to Christ. And I didn't know him. We moved in here and then later he moved in. He didn't know he was moving in next door to a preacher, you know, and I never told him that. I just began to visit with him, make friends with him. He made friends with the person. You began to talk with them about anything, it doesn't matter what. Before very long he'll bring it up. And you can witness to him. And it is that. Witness that friendship added to and add to that a witness. And it will keep you from getting bitter and going off into the sunset angry.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Okay, let me ask you this. This is a problem that, anybody that's been a Christian for very long can relate to. Dry times, Dry times. In quiet times. you've read the Bible through maybe several times, or you've read certain passages over and over and it just, you kind of go through the motions and you look, lose the zeal and the zip that you once had. How do you deal with that?
Dr. Paige Patterson: First of all, read good biblical biographies. You know, you're down in the dumps. Well, read the story of, ah, Stuart Hamlin's salvation, terrible sinner, who, comes the Lord miraculously here in Billy Graham one night in Los Angeles at the crusade. and, and there are all kinds of great biographies out there of people who've come to Christ. Just get into a biography. As I read it all the time read biography all the time. I'm forever reading a new biography of somebody that's had an experience with Christ, the great experience. And it rekindles my fire and it gets me back into the word of God. If I've gotten, to where I think I know too much of it and I never do, but I may think that occasionally. And so this, this gets you back into it and it's exciting to read. What happened to people? Amazing what happened to people. Right.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, I look forward to reading Paw prints whenever you get that written.
Dr. Paige Patterson: I think you will have fun with it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, Doctor, Patterson, let me ask you this. As you approach, you know, who knows, you could live for another 20 years. I would, I know you're looking forward to the rapture of the church and we believe the same as far as, as eschatology goes. What do you think when you, when you get to heaven and some of these questions that you've had as a theologian, what do you think some of the biggest ones are that will maybe surprise you? Concerning the answer,
Dr. Paige Patterson: I don't know which ones will surprise me. but I know there will be ample surprises for us all. We can work at it all we want to know, but there are huge mysteries that still exist in the word of God and that entice our interest and things that we have said that probably we misread the book some way and will be straightened out. One of the joys of heaven will be getting it all straight finally. And it all makes sense together at that point. So I think you're right. I think we'll spend a lot of time in heaven getting it all straight and understanding it all. And that's one of the joys of heaven. Heaven will not be a boring place. It is not a place where you float around on a cloud strumming your, harp and, become a cloud potato. Oh, no. Now, heaven, place of infinite activity and infinite growth.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Do you think. Dr. Patterson, I had shared this in a sermon just a couple of weeks ago. And it's, soft thinking because the Bible doesn't really say. But I shared and I said, I think in heaven for all eternity, we'll still be learning new, new truths, seeing new beauties about the Lord because he's the infinite God. And I don't think we're ever going to have him all completely understood and figured out. Would you say that's true or not true?
Dr. Paige Patterson: I'd say it's absolutely true. Because if we get to a point where we understand everything about God, we would be God. And, that isn't going to happen. And so, on. Although in heaven, we are no longer sick, we're no longer dying, we're no longer getting old, we're no longer, struggling, against, everything working against us. It is nevertheless true that heaven is a place of eternal learning. And just think about all we've discovered just in the last few years about space that we didn't know until our two spacecraft went awl. Got out of the solar system. And they've been radio and back. Things that all the astronomers are amazed at. They thought they had it all figured out. Now they're learning more and more. Well, that's forever. Yeah. That's our God out there at work. And that's what we're going to be looking at.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Dr. Patterson, when we think about the, witch at Endor and the situation with, Saul calling up Samuel, Samuel was an old man. Now, whether. Do you think that was really Samuel?
Dr. Paige Patterson: I have no idea whether it was or not. But, I do think that God made some sort of a, move in the area of communicating with Saul. And, so he found a way to do that. Even though he condemned witchcraft. God found a way to communicate Saul what needed to be communicated.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, I guess my point would be. Or, my question would be if that was indeed Samuel, he was an old man. do you. Do you see us in heaven all being kind of the same age?
Dr. Paige Patterson: No. The same age as one another?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes, I do think that is true. I don't think that some will be young. you know, they died at age nine and so they're still nine. One died at age 99. He's still 99. No, no, I don't think so at all. I think that, the new body will be fresh and in every way forever. But I do think God can then make someone to appear a certain way.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
Dr. Paige Patterson: And he did it indoor.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen. Well, this has been a joy, Dr. Patterson. Thank you so much for your time and for talking about finishing. Well, that's something that, every Christian should want to do. To run full speed all the way to the finish line until the Lord calls us home. So thanks for listening to Real Truth for today. Go out today, shine for Christ and share what great things the Lord has done for you and God will use you as his witness. God bless you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, good morning and welcome to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. wanted to read to you from second Timothy, chapter four, the last chapter of that Paul ever penned. He said to Timothy, for I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight. I have finished the course. I have kept the faith in the future. There is laid up for me the crown of righteousness which the Lord the righteous judge will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but also to all who have loved his appearing.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Well.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: It is a great joy of mine today to welcome to the program one of my heroes in the faith, Dr. Paige Patterson. He is a theologian, seminary president, author, evangelist, and the former president of the Southern Baptist Convention. husband to Dorothy, father of two, and grandfather of how many, Paige?
Dr. Paige Patterson: But I have, three great grandchildren. Three.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Three great grands?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: How is that?
Dr. Paige Patterson: They're all under five years old. They're the recent ones on the block.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So just curious. I have, eight grandchildren. So are our great grands even greater than the grands?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes, they're a lot of fun. They really are.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Well, cool. Congratulations on that. Well, Dr. Patterson, I want to talk to you today about, an important subject, and that's the, the subject of fear. Finishing well, sprinting to the finish line, not limping to the finish line, not coasting to the finish line. And it seems like it's something that is hard for lots of Christians, especially as they get old. They kind of just, they lose this zeal. They lose the, the, the strength to keep going. you're not like that at all. You're going on mission trips, you're teaching a Sunday school class. You're doing lots and lots of things. Even as, you're health is not what it used to be 20 years ago, but you're still pushing forward and so the big question is, how are you able to do that?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Well, thank you, Pastor Schrieve. It's a joy to be with you today. And, let me say that, I am very concerned about, how I finish, because, like you, I've seen far too many, who have difficulty toward the end. I know that's a possibility for any of us. And so when people ask me, what are you doing to make a difference? I say basically three things. Number, one, I avoid at all cost, bitterness. You know, the Bible book of Hebrews says, be careful about a root of bitterness springing up in you. Now, it's very easy for folks, as I get into their senior years, to. To start contemplating all the bad things that have happened to them. And if you sit there and contemplate all the bad that has happened to you, you will be bitter.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Because there is plenty of bad that happens along the way. And thinking about that and cogitating on it and remembering it and thinking and wondering if you're going to be able to get even with your enemies and all of that kind of thing, those. The very worst thing you can do. And so I pray every day, dear God, do not allow a root of bitterness to spring up in me and defile many, not just yourself, but it defiles everybody else. Everybody that's near to you is hurt by your bitterness if that comes into play. And your church is hurt by your bitterness. And so keep having fun in life. Notice the funny stuff in life. notice all the funny things that happen to you, the crazy things you do all the time. You forget your car keys and lock them in the car. All the kinds of things that you do. When you get to be forgetful and old age and have fun out of it, don't grow bitter about it. That's the first thing. Second thing is learn to pray with. With specificity. Now, this is a, this is a real key, you know, Our prayer life tends to be pretty general. God bless all the missionaries and help them to do well. Yeah, ah, I don't really know one, but I'm sure there must be some out there. God bless them. No, pray two or three very specific prayers on a regular basis. Pray for somebody who's lost every day. If you don't know somebody that's lost, get found a way to get out, go sit in the mall and talk to people or do something like that. Find people that are lost, somebody that you can pray for every day. Find somebody that you know is suffering and you can pray for every day. As a matter of fact, if you're suffering, if you'll pray for other people that are suffering, it will lessen your suffering. And so pray with specificity. Pray for your church. Pray for your pastor. My pastor's a wonderful guy, but he is a guy. And so he makes mistakes like everybody else. I don't criticize his mistakes when he makes them. I think, well, at least I wasn't there and make that mistake. But what I'm going to do is I'm going to pray for him and hold him before God and ask God to bless him. So pray specifically and note down the prayers that God answers. And the third thing I would say to you is, whatever you do, stay busy. I know so many folks that are like, I am 84 years of age. I can't do what I used to could do. You know that my right eye was fairly good. I wasn't, a, top shot in the whole world, but I got a house full of animals to show that I could shoot.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
Dr. Paige Patterson: And, and I was good. I can't really see anymore. I'm blind in my left eye and I don't see very well on my right eye. Hey, that's part of the aging inevitability. And so what you have to do though, is don't let that sideline you. Find a way to stay busy. And I've stayed very busy. I'm 84 now, but I have stayed very, very busy. I've got four book contracts right now that I'm still working on to get that out. Well, not everybody's got to be an author. Not everybody's going to write. And I may not make all four of those, you know, but I'm going to try. And, and, and so the point is, find what you can do and stay busy. When you get, get bored and you sit around and contemplate how many toes you got on each foot. You are in serious trouble. You are a mark for the devil to shoot at. And he will shoot at you as sure as the world. Stay busy. More than you can possibly do. Stay busy. Keep your church in mind. Call people, you can't go visit them. I understand that, but get their phone numbers and call them and invite them to be in Sunday school. Whatever you do, stay busy in the work of the Savior and you won't have time to feel sorry for yourself.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen m to that. Okay, so four book contracts. What are these books about, Dr. Patterson?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Well, a little bit of everything. I am doing my, my own Memoirs. That's taking a lot more time than I thought it would because I thought I'd finished it, and I gave it to my editor to edit. My editor, my wife, she threw it back in my face, and she said, this won't do. and I said, well, I. I was afraid it was bad. She said, no, it's not bad, but it is not the truth. And she said, if you don't tell the truth, you're lying. And she said, you. You. And I said, well, I tried to keep it under 200 pages. People don't read much. She says, your memoirs, and you gotta write however much it is. Yeah. Oh, I have returned to the drawing board again, and I'm doing that. And,
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, let me. Let me interrupt you, Dr. Patterson. So writing your memoirs would be dredging up a lot of hurtful things people had done to you, would it not?
Dr. Paige Patterson: that was why I didn't want to do it. One of. One of the two reasons that I didn't want to do it. I didn't think anybody be interested in it either. And so, that was the other reason. But I didn't. I didn't want to do it because I didn't want to do that. But I'll tell you why I decided to do it. hunting Africa. One day, I, was closing in online, and, I knew that that line was very close, but I couldn't see it in the heavy stuff. And, at that point, I really wasn't ready. And my Ender belly guide touched me on the shoulder, which was a sign that I shouldn't say anything, but I should look at him, glanced at him, and he pointed down at my foot. And when I looked down at my boot, there was a fresh, very fresh huge line print right there. And I knew he saw the line, he saw the kitty. And so I moved my rifle, and I know more than move my rifle. The line appeared overhead, dropped at me. I had split second to make that final shot, and she died with her head on my left foot. I got thinking about that one day, and I thought, you know what? That's how I can do my memoirs. I'm going to call it, Paw Prince. And I'm going to talk about all the people whose prints have been left on my life. M. You'll be in there.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Oh, wow.
Dr. Paige Patterson: And, a lot of other people will be in there, and. And some people who won't ever have a biography written about me, they're going to be in this book because I'm going to tell about how they shaped my life. And in doing so, I'm going to be able to tell the story of my sorrows and heartaches and heartbreak breaks and tell them I believe with God, will help me in such a way that it will encourage people and not discourage.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. let me ask you a question, speaking of memoirs. So David talks to Solomon and he points out Shimei and he says, take note of him. do you think David was holding a grudge against him?
Dr. Paige Patterson: No, I think that, ah, David was hurt buying. And you don't just say one night when you go to bed, I'm going to get over my hurt. I'm not going to be hurt at this guy. people do hurt you, and you know that. You've had that experience yourself and you don't just get over the hurt. But what David knew was that it was not going to be right for him to do anything. He left that in the hands of God. And he said, you leave Shammai alone. God will take care of it. And sure enough, God did. Yes. So that's, that's the point. And that's the thing that, that I say. It doesn't do any good to be bitter against people. Being bitter against people who have, have harmed you, only hurt you. It doesn't hurt them a bit.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right. Dr. Patterson, how do you, how do you handle being around people that have been very ugly to you, very publicly ugly to you, and then you're going to see them at the Southern Baptist Convention or something like that? How do you, we have just about a minute and a half left. How do you interact with them?
Dr. Paige Patterson: I'm not going to answer that in this minute and a half because it's going to take me just a little bit longer. Next, next phase of the unit will do it. But let me say to you, that's where the fun of the Christian life comes in. I will say that much to you. The fun of Christian life, means that these people are expecting you to growl at them. And when you smile and you say, how you doing today? God bless you, it is absolutely the most unnerving thing that can possibly happen to them.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: I guess that's like pouring, hot coals on their head, as it says in book of, Romans, 12.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes. It doesn't really mean to hurt them. It doesn't mean that at all. It just means to surprise them with joy.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. Amen to that.
Dr. Paige Patterson: You leave it to God.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen. Well, we're talking to Dr. Paige Patterson, one of my heroes in the faith. And we're talking about finishing well, as Paul said, I have fought the good fight. I have finished the course. I have kept the faith. We want to be able to do that. We want to sprint all the way to the finish line, not limp across the finish line, not crawl across the finish line, but sprint all the way into the arms of Jesus. You're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. We'll be right back.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Don't go away.
: Candace talks about finding, out she was pregnant. Thankfully, an ultrasound provided by preborn allowed her to hear her baby's heartbeat. The sonogram sealed the deal for me.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: My baby was like this tiny little
: spectrum of hope and I saw his heart beating on the screen and knowing that there's life growing inside. I mean that sonogram changed my life.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: I went from just Candace to mom.
: Thank you to everybody that has given these gifts. You guys are giving more than money. You guys are giving love. Preborn currently has clinics that do not have ultrasound machines. Would you consider a leadership gift and sponsor a machine today? These life Saving machines cost $15,000 more than most centers can afford. Your donation will save countless lives for years to come. Dial pound250 and say the keyword baby or go to preborn.com afr. This is Real Truth for Today podcast of the program. Program are available on the podcast [email protected] now back to Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here on American Family Radio. I'm talking to one of my good friends and one of my mentors, Dr. Paige Patterson. He was my president at Southeastern Seminary when I was there as a student. And he finished up his presidency at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. written many books. He's a just a well known theologian, evangelist. I love that about him. He's got the heart of an evangelist. Former president of the Southern Baptist Convention. He has been the the whipping boy for many, many people that don't like his stands on things. And and many have publicly said ugly things about you, accused you of things you didn't do, sued you about things you didn't do. And so I was asking you right before the break, Dr. Patterson, how do you do when you have to encounter these people at the Southern Baptist Convention or a meeting or something like that? Because it's one thing to forgive a person from a distance, but then to be in their presence can be very Uncomfortable.
Dr. Paige Patterson: It can, but it could also be a lot of fun. And of course you have to make it. One of my constant accusers while he was Alive was, was Dr. Ken Chafin. Some of your listeners may even remember him. He's very colorful man, highly educated. And Dr. Chaffin and I had known each other actually for many, many years. But he became one who was most unhappy with me. And he would write columns that would occur in the newspapers about me on a regular basis. And so one night I was traveling home and I was reading my Bible on the plane and my Bible said something to me that was really disturbing. It said, return good for evil. And I thought about that all the way home on the airplane. I ah, just couldn't get rid of it. How do you return good for evil? And here was this article that Ken Chafin had written, basically questioning my Christianity and everything else had So what in the world. So the next day I'm sitting in my office and it finally occurs to me what I need to do. I walked across to the department store across the street, church down there. And I bought a really nice tie, really pretty expensive tie. And I wrote a note and put it with it And I said, Dr. Chaffin, you came to my mind today. I didn't say why you came to my mind today. And so I was thinking about you and I prayed my, I bowed my head and prayed that God would bless you day. And I just wanted you to have this tie as an indication of that. And until he comes page Patterson. And I sent it to him. Now I didn't think anything about it. I never heard from him. He never thanked me, never anything said. But just before Dr. Chaffin died, somebody said to him one day, Dr. Shaving, I like that tie you got on. And, and, and Ken was very straightforward with the guy. He said, yes, it's one of them that Paige Patterson gave me. And the guy was startling. He said, one of them he gave me. He said, yeah, I hadn't really kept count, but I think the last, I think he was 27 that he's given to me.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Wow.
Dr. Paige Patterson: And I hadn't kept count either, but that's about right. Yeah. and so, then Ken died and went to his grave. Well, he had to go to his grave knowing that I was not bitter against him. And that's important to me see that that happened. And I discovered that I could send a gift out of that. I discovered if you return good for Evil. You send a little gift, maybe a fruit bowl, maybe an arrangement of flowers. I like doing a tie because people wore them in those days and, and it was something that would be useful to them, and a little different from flowers, but do something, do something nice for them. Pray for those that despitefully use you. And, and so the Bible is very, very explicit in its instructions of what we do about people who have it in for us. That's where we exhibit the graciousness of Christ which has already been extended to us in his cross. Died for us and we certainly didn't deserve that. We deserved anything but. So that's why I say to people, find something definite to do to express your interest in this individual and God, will bless that all the days of your life as a result of that. Most of my most severe critics are people who I think would say, yeah, I don't agree with Paige about anything, but he has been nice to me. I think most of them would say that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: You know, I think they said that about Dr. Falwell too. he was nice to people. I remember asking him, and I know you were good friends with Jerry, but I remember asking him how do you deal with the Al Sharpton's of the world? He said, well he's just a person. He's wrong in his beliefs. But I can be kind to him as a person.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Man for whom Christ died. Yeah, that's right. If Jesus could die for him for sure I can find a way to be nice to him. Dr. Falwell is exactly right.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so Dr. Patterson, how do you handle feelings when it comes to somebody preaching falsehood, leading people astray because those people. It can be hard, I know for me to not demonize that person and really assign evil to. Because they are doing evil. How can you have a good heart toward them while still condemning what they're doing?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Well, I do think there are situations where a little bit of confrontation is necessary. Some years ago, I had a kinsman, Dr. Wayne Ward, who was professor at ah, Southern Seminary. And by the way a great preacher and by the way a consistent personal soul winner. And Dr. Ward greatly encouraged me in m. My ministry in many, many ways. But Wayne, who is related to me by marriage, fairly close relative, said some things about me that were not true in a pulpit in Louisville where he was speaking. And somebody sent me a tape of it. I listened to it and he accused me of not allowing my wife to teach because she was a Woman. And of course she was kin, to him. M. I was related by marriage. And so he was supposedly defending her, from my not allowing her to teach. Well, there were a couple of problems with that. Number one, I always had her teaching. And so it just simply wasn't true. And and so I did confront Dr. Ward with that, but my confrontation was not of a bitter kind. There are two ways to confront people. There is a confrontation with a view to stirring up hatred and distrust, and a confrontation that would have confronted him before the congregation that he had spoken. And I, wasn't interested in doing that. I was just interested in attempting to get him to stop saying something that he knew was not true. And so I wrote him about it and he wrote back a very nice letter. And he said, you're right, I should never have said that. And so, there's your case in point where, you may have to confront and you may try, may not succeed, may not get anywhere with it at all. But the point is that you don't want to confront in such a way that you take your hurt and impose that hurt on another individual. That's what you don't want to do
Pastor Jeff Schreve: when you're dealing with, wolves that are going after the sheep. because I struggle with that. It's hard not to be a little fired up over that and to want to silence that, that guy that's going to hurt people, with his ideology and things like that, false teachers and that kind of thing. So when you hear, you know, some of the, some of the crazies on Christian television, does, does that do something to you inside? It's just like that needs to be stopped, that is wrong, that's leading people astray.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Well, let's go to the Bible. Did the Bible writers ever confront anybody like that? Yes, they certainly did. In no uncertain terms. Paul confronts people all the time through the epistles and he's fairly, fairly straight with them. I think when you've got a situation where a person is, using a false doctrine, he's not trying to get at you personally, but he is using false, false teaching that will confuse and hurt the people and maybe even take people to hell.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes. I think that we have to confront them still. It's how you do it. It's not so much in what you do, it's more in how you do a thing than anything else. And I've always prayed, dear God, help me, to be able to find the way to confront and even confront Firmly where I have to. But at the same time, the guy to come away saying, well, I think maybe he loved me.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.
Dr. Paige Patterson: At least to be able to say that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, let me ask you this. Todd Frio brought this up as it related to Philip Yancey. He did a whole program about, you know, Philip was having an affair for eight years. It started when he was 68 years old. he confessed that at 76 and had to, you know, disengage from public ministry and that kind of thing. But he, he talked about, how guys have a tendency to soften theologically as they get older. let me ask you two questions on that. Do you think that's true and why do you think, if so, why do you think that is?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Well, yes, I do think it's true. And I've watched it myself across the years. And, first thing I'd say is, dear God, deliver me from that. help that not happen to me, because I've seen so many do it. And there is an addendum I would add to that too, that I think I don't believe. I remember seeing that from Todd Friel, for whom I have great respect, by the way. but, ah, I don't know that he added this thing. The other thing I've watched happen, I have watched ministers of the gospel cave in when their children are out of fellowship with God. you mentioned Jerry Vines while ago. One of the reasons I so honor Jerry Vines is that he went through a period where he had a boy who was not living in terrible sin or anything, but he was off the reservation, he wasn't doing right. Jerry never ceased loving that boy. He never ceased walking with that boy. But he never one time defended what that boy did. And, I had the same thing happen with, with my son for a while. And I tried. Lord, don't ever let me try to defend what he's doing that's wrong. I just kept praying and, and walking with him and sure enough, God brought him back. Nice. Pastor of, the Japanese, Baptist Church here in town. Oh, wow. And you know, God does things like that. But that's a weakness that so many pastors have. They fall and they soften on things that they preach when their children get into that sometimes. And so that's a warning I would have. And I think the reason we do it when we're older, when we have a tendency to get soft when we're older, is we just so much want to leave, a good impression with everybody, want everybody to love us when we die. Well, that is not dependent on doing wrong things, is dependent upon being right. And the right people will still love you. And so I think that's probably where it comes about. You don't have as much energy to struggle against things that you know are wrong. That's true. That's inevitable. But don't soften on what you taught to be the belief.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: You know, I was preaching through Dr. Patterson's preaching through judges. And, one of the things that's kind of, I would say, little known in the Christian community is how poorly Gideon finished. this great guy, I mean, he's obviously timid, but he has faith. And his faith is greater than his fear. And God uses him to deliver Israel, from the Midianites. But he doesn't finish. Well, we just have a couple minutes before the break. if I can tap into some of your wisdom there. What do you think? What do you think was the reason why Gideon kind of petered out toward the end?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Well, after. I don't know the reason, but I know the Bible is full of cases like that. I know it happened to Saul, it happened to Eli, it happened to Samuel. Of all people, Samuel has to be the greatest of all the, judges and the first of the prophets. My goodness, what a marvelous man of God he is. But his sons did not stay truthful to the word of God. And some well put up with it. Just such a tendency to do that. And I'm not sure why it happens. We love them, we want the best for them. But we cannot compromise God's word.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: No, m. We can't. Well, you're listening to Real Truth for today here on American Family Radio. Pastor Jeff Schrieve talking to one of my, heroes in the faith, Dr. Paige Patterson. And, Dr. Patterson is finishing well. He teaches his Sunday school class. How many are in your Sunday school class, Dr. Patterson?
Dr. Paige Patterson: We had 160 this week.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, a good sized church then.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Well, it's kind of a small church, but, it's meeting a need, I believe, and I'm grateful to have the opportunity. I appreciate Dr. Jefferson has given me that opportunity.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Preach is a. If you don't have a church, consider First Baptist Dallas and visit Dr. Paige Patterson's class. We have more with Dr. Paige Patterson. We're talking about finishing well here on American Family Radio. We'll be right back.
: If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff, email pastor jeffromhishheart.org now back to Real Truth for today. With Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to Dr. Paige Patterson. We're talking about finishing. Well, Psalm 90, 92. the Psalmist says this. I love this. It says, the righteous man will flourish like the palm tree. He will grow like a cedar in Lebanon, planted in the house of the Lord. They will flourish in the courts of our God. They will still yield fruit in old age. They shall be full of SAP and very green to declare that the Lord is upright. He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in.
Dr. Paige Patterson: In him.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: I want to be able to finish that way even in old age, to still yield fruit and to be full of SAP and very green. Dr. Patterson, you went on a mission trip just this last. What, last couple of months?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes. We were in Germany.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: And, you've been there many times?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes, I have, but I've been pretty much everywhere many times. Wife and I have been privileged to go to 147 countries.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. I was talking to Dr. Dean Sieberhagen. he was here at First Baptist Texarkana just the other Sunday. And, your name came up, and he had talked about Madagascar. Did you ever go to Madagascar?
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes, I did. And, of course, I've got a student there now who, began the work, in Southern Madagascar. that's a very interesting story. Let me repeat it, if I may. when Thom Ellip was, the, head of the international, Mission Board of Southern Baptist Convention, he called me one day, and he said, Paige said, you know, we're trying to urge people to take a people group. And he said, I just think if, seminary would take one, maybe I could encourage the churches, too. He said, would you be willing to take an unreached people group? And, I said, no. And there was a long pause, and he came back on. He said, well, okay. But he said, you surprised me a little bit. He said, you never told me no before. And he said, so, I've got to be curious. Why do you say no? You. You won't take a group? And I said, because you won't do it like I want it done. And he said, well, I don't know that I want. How do I want it done? How do you want it done? And I said, well, if I take a people group, I want it to be a large people group, at least a million people. And I want, as far as you know, there not to be a single convert among them. Not a single Christian among Them and I want to be very difficult to get to. Right next to impossible to get to. And so he said, well, Page, we can agree to all that. We'll read all that. I said, I know it's fourth one's going to get you. I said, you have to agree that you will not appoint any missionaries from the International Mission Board until I give you a go on it. And he said, you're trying to get me fired. I said, no, I'm not. I said. And he said, well, you don't love our missionary. And I said, yes, I do. I think some of your missionaries are some of the greatest people I've ever known. I said, not that at all. But I said, if you look on your desk right there, there's a huge book. You never read the whole thing. Thom. I said, that's your book of rules and regulations for Southern Baptist missionaries. I said, there's far too many of them. It's impossible for anybody to read that book. No, I say, I know about it because I was on the mission board for a while and so I, I know about that book. Now you don't pay any attention to it really, but there are too many rules I don't want. And I said, if I do a people group, I've got to be free to do it my way. And so Thom said, let me call you back. So about three weeks later he called me. So you probably don't get me fired. But he said, I'm going to agree to your four, rules. And so I said, fine. Do you, have my people group? He said, I do. He says, I'd like for you to take the entendre People who are located on the southern end of Madagascar. Madagascar has been evangelized. Middle part of the country and all up north. But southern part of the island and Tandroy are called the People of the Thorn. And the reason they're called that is because there are no paved roads going in there at all. There are a million of them almost exactly. And you can't get to them because old thorn bushes and everything is almost impossible to get to them. And so nobody's ever really gone in there and tried. They're, they're superstitious, they're deep into, witchcraft and that kind of thing. And he said, just not. I said, that's the group I want. Exactly. Well, we went there thinking there were no converts. We found the convert. Now you gotta believe this is amazing. He had been led to the Lord when he took his mother into the hospital in Tanna, the capital. And while he was sitting with her, Campus crusade came by and led him to Christ M. He's back in Antandroi company country. He's sitting on his front porch and he knows he's a believer now. He doesn't know another believer in the whole world. He doesn't know the people who led him to the Lord. He doesn't know anybody. He's praying, Lord, I can't be the only person in the whole world. Lord, could you send somebody that, that I could talk to? He doesn't know. I got four guys from Southwestern, walking down his street right then and they're praying, Lord, could you lead us to somebody that would have a Bible study in his home? Yeah. And so they knock on his door. God has brought them together. He comes the Lord. He eventually says, I want to become a minister. He comes to Southwestern seminary, does a PhD with us, goes back to Madagascar, which is what folks all do, and goes back there and he starts a revival movement. They've got churches everywhere in Madagascar Land M and, and it's most beautiful thing you ever saw what all was going on down there. And now he started a Bible school.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
Dr. Paige Patterson: He's very well equipped to do that. So, all that. And that's the kind of thing that we need to have happen.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. That's exciting. Well, I love the fact that, now obviously one of your spiritual gifts is evangelism. I mean, you have such a heart for that. Not everybody has that. but I know you emphasize that when I was a student at Southeastern Seminary, when we had that first president's discussion, you emphasize that keep witnessing. Preaching from the pulpit is not witnessing. That's different. And I think a lot of guys get away from that.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes. And to our subject today. That's another reason why people play out in the long haul. They stop witnessing. there is always somebody to witness to if you'll just be alert to it. I've had the opportunity recently to lead my next door neighbor here to Christ. And I didn't know him. We moved in here and then later he moved in. He didn't know he was moving in next door to a preacher, you know, and I never told him that. I just began to visit with him, make friends with him. He made friends with the person. You began to talk with them about anything, it doesn't matter what. Before very long he'll bring it up. And you can witness to him. And it is that. Witness that friendship added to and add to that a witness. And it will keep you from getting bitter and going off into the sunset angry.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Okay, let me ask you this. This is a problem that, anybody that's been a Christian for very long can relate to. Dry times, Dry times. In quiet times. you've read the Bible through maybe several times, or you've read certain passages over and over and it just, you kind of go through the motions and you look, lose the zeal and the zip that you once had. How do you deal with that?
Dr. Paige Patterson: First of all, read good biblical biographies. You know, you're down in the dumps. Well, read the story of, ah, Stuart Hamlin's salvation, terrible sinner, who, comes the Lord miraculously here in Billy Graham one night in Los Angeles at the crusade. and, and there are all kinds of great biographies out there of people who've come to Christ. Just get into a biography. As I read it all the time read biography all the time. I'm forever reading a new biography of somebody that's had an experience with Christ, the great experience. And it rekindles my fire and it gets me back into the word of God. If I've gotten, to where I think I know too much of it and I never do, but I may think that occasionally. And so this, this gets you back into it and it's exciting to read. What happened to people? Amazing what happened to people. Right.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, I look forward to reading Paw prints whenever you get that written.
Dr. Paige Patterson: I think you will have fun with it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, Doctor, Patterson, let me ask you this. As you approach, you know, who knows, you could live for another 20 years. I would, I know you're looking forward to the rapture of the church and we believe the same as far as, as eschatology goes. What do you think when you, when you get to heaven and some of these questions that you've had as a theologian, what do you think some of the biggest ones are that will maybe surprise you? Concerning the answer,
Dr. Paige Patterson: I don't know which ones will surprise me. but I know there will be ample surprises for us all. We can work at it all we want to know, but there are huge mysteries that still exist in the word of God and that entice our interest and things that we have said that probably we misread the book some way and will be straightened out. One of the joys of heaven will be getting it all straight finally. And it all makes sense together at that point. So I think you're right. I think we'll spend a lot of time in heaven getting it all straight and understanding it all. And that's one of the joys of heaven. Heaven will not be a boring place. It is not a place where you float around on a cloud strumming your, harp and, become a cloud potato. Oh, no. Now, heaven, place of infinite activity and infinite growth.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Do you think. Dr. Patterson, I had shared this in a sermon just a couple of weeks ago. And it's, soft thinking because the Bible doesn't really say. But I shared and I said, I think in heaven for all eternity, we'll still be learning new, new truths, seeing new beauties about the Lord because he's the infinite God. And I don't think we're ever going to have him all completely understood and figured out. Would you say that's true or not true?
Dr. Paige Patterson: I'd say it's absolutely true. Because if we get to a point where we understand everything about God, we would be God. And, that isn't going to happen. And so, on. Although in heaven, we are no longer sick, we're no longer dying, we're no longer getting old, we're no longer, struggling, against, everything working against us. It is nevertheless true that heaven is a place of eternal learning. And just think about all we've discovered just in the last few years about space that we didn't know until our two spacecraft went awl. Got out of the solar system. And they've been radio and back. Things that all the astronomers are amazed at. They thought they had it all figured out. Now they're learning more and more. Well, that's forever. Yeah. That's our God out there at work. And that's what we're going to be looking at.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Dr. Patterson, when we think about the, witch at Endor and the situation with, Saul calling up Samuel, Samuel was an old man. Now, whether. Do you think that was really Samuel?
Dr. Paige Patterson: I have no idea whether it was or not. But, I do think that God made some sort of a, move in the area of communicating with Saul. And, so he found a way to do that. Even though he condemned witchcraft. God found a way to communicate Saul what needed to be communicated.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, I guess my point would be. Or, my question would be if that was indeed Samuel, he was an old man. do you. Do you see us in heaven all being kind of the same age?
Dr. Paige Patterson: No. The same age as one another?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
Dr. Paige Patterson: Yes, I do think that is true. I don't think that some will be young. you know, they died at age nine and so they're still nine. One died at age 99. He's still 99. No, no, I don't think so at all. I think that, the new body will be fresh and in every way forever. But I do think God can then make someone to appear a certain way.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
Dr. Paige Patterson: And he did it indoor.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen. Well, this has been a joy, Dr. Patterson. Thank you so much for your time and for talking about finishing. Well, that's something that, every Christian should want to do. To run full speed all the way to the finish line until the Lord calls us home. So thanks for listening to Real Truth for today. Go out today, shine for Christ and share what great things the Lord has done for you and God will use you as his witness. God bless you.
In this episode of Real Truth for Today, Pastor Jeff Schreve welcomes Dr. Paige Patterson, theologian, author, evangelist, and former president of the Southern Baptist Convention, for an encouraging conversation about what it means to finish well in the Christian life.
Drawing from 2 Timothy 4:7–8, Pastor Jeff and Dr. Patterson discuss the importance of staying faithful, avoiding bitterness, praying specifically, and remaining active in the work of Christ—even in the later years of life. Dr. Patterson shares practical wisdom from his own experience, emphasizing that Christians should continue serving, witnessing, and looking for ways to make a difference rather than becoming discouraged or feeling sorry for themselves.
The conversation also addresses forgiveness and returning good for evil, including Dr. Patterson's personal experiences with people who had publicly criticized or mistreated him. They discuss how Christians can confront false teaching firmly while still showing love and grace toward those who oppose them.
In this episode of Real Truth for Today, Pastor Jeff Schreve welcomes Dr. Paige Patterson, theologian, author, evangelist, and former president of the Southern Baptist Convention, for an encouraging conversation about what it means to finish well in the Christian life.
Drawing from 2 Timothy 4:7–8, Pastor Jeff and Dr. Patterson discuss the importance of staying faithful, avoiding bitterness, praying specifically, and remaining active in the work of Christ—even in the later years of life. Dr. Patterson shares practical wisdom from his own experience, emphasizing that Christians should continue serving, witnessing, and looking for ways to make a difference rather than becoming discouraged or feeling sorry for themselves.
The conversation also addresses forgiveness and returning good for evil, including Dr. Patterson's personal experiences with people who had publicly criticized or mistreated him. They discuss how Christians can confront false teaching firmly while still showing love and grace toward those who oppose them.
Live
Did you know American Family Radio is listener-supported? Your monthly financial support will allow us to continue upholding Godly values through our numerous channels, like American Family Radio, One Million Moms, The Stand magazine, and many more.
Become a Great Commission Partner TODAY to help AFR transform culture by rebuilding the family. When you donate today, you’ll get access to:
