Dr. Jessica Peck We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection and the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28 to donate, dial pound250 and say the keyword baby or visit preborn.com/AFR $28 may not sound like much, but to a scared mother considering abortion, it can help provide something incredibly important. A real opportunity to pause and see her baby for the first time. Today, a woman facing an unexpected pregnancy can reach for her phone, search for abortion pills, connect with a provider online and have the pills delivered directly to her home. She can move from fear toward abortion incredibly quickly. But your gift can help create another opportunity. For just $28, you can help provide a free ultrasound through a PreBorn Network clinic. There, a woman can see her baby talk with people who will listen to what she's facing, receive compassionate support and consider another choice before abortion becomes her answer. And when women see their babies through an ultrasound at a PreBorn Network clinic, 80% choose life. $28 can help provide one ultrasound $280 can help provide 10. Reach her before the pill does with your strongest gift today! Dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250 baby or visit preborn.com/AFR that's preborn.com/AFR all gifts are tax- deductible and PreBorn is a five star rated charity. preborn.com/AFR
hello and welcome to the Doctor Nurse Mama show prescribing Hope for healthy families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day. I love getting to spend time talking with you. Prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. And we're talking about talking today. We're talking about conversation. And I want to ask you a question. When was the last time you had a conversation that you left feeling like the person you were talking to truly knew you? Someone maybe asked a thoughtful question. Somebody actually listened to your answer, listened with their face and stayed interested long enough to ask another good question. You didn't feel rushed or corrected or measured against someone else's experience. You felt that what you had to say matters. You know how that feels when you walk away from a conversation like that. I always felt like that after I Talked with my granny. But I want you to think now about how much communication happens in modern context. We send a quick text, a, direct message, a, reaction to a message, or just maybe even not a word. An emoji that maybe we don't even recognize or aren't sure how to interpret. My husband always tells me, don't send me emojis. I don't speak emoji. We can send a heart to a message without really hearing someone's heart. We can keep a message thread going for days, just really talking about nothing. These tools help us stay in touch. But meaningful communication is about connection, and it takes attention and curiosity and something that's really valuable, and that's time. In a world that gives us endless opportunities to exchange messages, we need to protect opportunities to have conversations, because that is where our most important relationships are going to be forged. And that begins at home. You probably have remembered, this conversation. If you have kids or you have had kids, asking them, how was school? Fine. What did you do? Nothing. You know that exchange very well. But we want to hear the story. But we might be just asking at a moment when our kid is really tired or hungry or just still sorting through what happened. A younger kid may struggle to organize an entire day into one answer to a very broad question, like, we're expecting them to have a level of communication that they don't. Or there may be a teenager who is deciding whether sharing something is safe and it'll lead to understanding, or a lecture or a series of questions that maybe they aren't ready to answer yet. Sometimes a smaller invitation will open a bigger door, like, who did you sit beside at lunch? What made you laugh today? Was there a moment today that you wished you could do over? And sometimes the best thing that we can do is just make room for quiet and be good listeners. Because kids don't always open up on our schedule, a story often emerges at the most inconvenient times. When we're cooking, when we're trying to drive home or walk the dog, or when there's just space to talk without with the pressure being put on the spot, and we, we don't have that space to talk. Children learn conversation through thousands of these ordinary exchanges. They practice finding their words for learning, taking turns noticing someone else's perspective. This is a real developmental task. And they discover how to disagree without becoming disconnected from someone. They also learn what happens when they tell the truth. Is it safe to admit a mistake? Can they express disappointment in what we said, what we did? Can they Say, I don't understand. Can they even say, that hurt my feelings and expect someone to help them work through it? Our responses help shape those expectations.
Parents Can Repair Old Communication Patterns And Model Humility
When we pause and say, tell me what happened, we are giving our children practice putting an experience into words. And when we ask, what do you think your friend was feeling? We are inviting perspective. When we say, I interrupted you. I'm sorry. Please finish. We're modeling humility and relationship rupture and repair, which are everyday healthy opportunities to teach skills that our children really need in their friendships, in their classrooms. They'll need them one day in the mar, in their marriage or their workplace or their future families. But a lot of us, the tough thing is we're learning those skills as we're trying to teach them. We're bringing our own family history into the conversation. Maybe you grew up in a home where the loudest person controlled the discussion. Maybe it was the scary, silent one who controlled the discussion or shut it down. Maybe difficult subjects were just kind of brushed over with humor or just quickly changed the subject. Maybe disagreement was equated to disrespect and private struggles that you share became family gossip. Or maybe you never got an apology from an adult in your life, a parent or another caregiver, and you maybe just learned to keep the peace by just staying quiet, just not talking about your feelings, just defending myself before anybody stops speaking. Or, just you feel a need to hide because expressing it is really hard. Now listen. These patterns are really familiar. They feel normal and even comfortable. And if you're. You have a calm disagreement, it may just feel unsettling. If you're accustomed to anger, you. You're used to somebody blowing up when they say something. You're not used to that quiet. And sometimes if somebody asks about your feelings, it just feels intrusive somehow. Or if you've never discussed them and you may love your child really deeply and you still hear yourself using words that adults used in your life that you wish that you hadn't. Listen. The recognizing that is where we're starting today. This is such an opportunity to grow. We can appreciate what our families gave us, and we can also examine the habits we want to change. We can stay present even when conversation's uncomfortable. We can practice and asking before assuming. And we can give our kids the experience of an adult who says, I'm sorry, let me try that again. I did not say that. Well, let me try that again. This work matters in the culture that our kids are navigating, because they can be really confused by what they're hearing. And as adults, we need that practice, too. And we are going to practice today. I'm delighted to welcome back Dr. Heather Holleman. We listen. You might remember Heather from our earlier conversation about her fiction series for young readers. Her Elita Brown series, beginning with this seat Saves it. they're so precious, and they talk about friendship and belonging and the assurance of being seated with Christ. It was so wonderful. And those themes are really applicable to what we're talking about today. We're talking about another one of her books, the Six Conversations, Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. And I am so excited to talk about this. So as we're. As we're talking, as Heather and I have a conversation, I want you to bring one relationship to mind. Is there a kid that you're struggling to reach in your house? Is it your spouse? Maybe you share a home or a friend? Today's conversation is really an open invitation, and I am so glad to invite and welcome. Heather. Thank you for coming back and spending some more time with us. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.
Dr. Heather Holleman Oh, thank you for having me. As you were talking, I thought, wait, I should just sit back and listen. I would. I was just, like, taking notes, like, oh, yes, that's true. This is what we think about when we're raised in certain ways. So I love how you think. I love how, you just have a really good understanding of the psychology of family, parenting, and kids. I want to listen more, but I guess I'm the one being interviewed, so.
Dr. Jessica Peck That's right. Exactly. Well, I'm going to have to make sure you know that payment for that endorsement, you know, clearly went through. No, I'm kidding, Heather. But it's true. I really appreciate the things that I have learned. And, you know, when I first started off as a mom, I was really, really bad at communication. Honestly, Heather, I was terrible. I brought in old, destructive patterns. I heard myself saying things to kids. I was not building relationships. I was burning bridges right and left. And I could have all of this professor knowledge. But I. I know God met me when My oldest was 13, and he gave me a new mindset and a new skill set. And that is what we can share as common grace today. So tell us, Heather, you know, you're a professor, too. What convicted you? What conviction from the Lord did you have to write this book, the Six Conversations to really Equip People for Relationship Building?
Dr. Heather Holleman Well, what started it all was actually the loneliness epidemic, that I was reading about. On college campuses. And I was reading health studies about the impact of loneliness. How when you're lonely, it's like smoking 15 cigarettes a day. You know, you're increasing your risk of premature death. I was just reading a lot of health studies, you know, the CIGNA Health study. I read the surgeon general's report, and I was also showing my students the Harvard grant study, which is the longest research study ever conducted. It's trying to answer the question, what's the single most determining factor of a happy life? And the answer was whether or not you have warm connections and social support. And my students would look at me and they'd say, yeah, we don't have that. We. How do we get warm connections? Because it was such a culture of just real incivility, isolation. And of course, I love talking to people about Jesus. And as I was helping people understand how to talk about faith. Faith. They would say things like, I love talking about my faith, but could you go back and teach me how to have conversations in general? So really, it was loneliness. And also, like you, I was a national, debater. I'm someone that loves knowledge, and I love to win arguments. That's terrible. That is a terrible way to live in marriage and with parenting. So I was convicted about intervening in the loneliness epidemic and then also becoming a more loving communicator, based on what I was reading in the social science research and also the Bible. What was the Bible saying about how to become a more loving communicator that can form warm connections with other people?
Dr. Jessica Peck That's a great place to pick up, because one of the things you talk about is the theology of a loving conversation. I talk about theology all the time now. I am a nurse practitioner. I am not a theologian. But I do believe that theology is for everyone. How does seeing another person is made in God's. God's image? That's talking about theology here. How does that change the way that we listen and speak? What is theology of a loving conversation?
Biblical Principles Align With Four Mindsets For Warm Human Connection
Dr. Heather Holleman Well, I love that you said that, because I love theology. I tell my students, like, I just can read theology all day long. I love learning about God. I love studying what the Bible tells us about how to live well and what is human flourishing. So imagine this. I'm reading all of the research available to me. I am reading every research article I can, trying to answer the question, how do you actually form warm connections with people? And I found out that you have to do four things. And when I tell you these four things, you're gonna laugh, because I Was like, wait, where have I heard this before? And it suddenly seemed very biblical. So the research was showing me that in order to have a warm connection, you have to be curious, believe the best, express concern, and share your life. Now, they had technical research terms, but I was looking at them, I said, you know, this sounds a lot like Philippians 2. This sounds a lot like Romans 12. So I went back to Philippians 2, and it talks about valuing others above yourself, taking on the interests of other people. So I'm reading these things, and when I got to Romans 12 about outdoing one another and showing honor, you know, contributing to the needs of the saints, I was like, wait a second. I have to be curious enough about people to know what they're concerned about. I have to believe the best about them. Because Romans 12 is really about loving your enemies. And I thought, well, what does it mean to believe the best about people expressing concern? I was like, gosh, that's. That's Galatians 6. Like, carry one another's burdens and then sharing your life. You hear, you know, Jesus at, the end of Philippians 2, he takes on the nature of a servant. You can think about Paul and Thessalonians talking about sharing his life. So it really began to be, for me, Christian discipleship. Like, when you follow what you're learning in Philippians and Romans, it's like, gosh, I need to change the way I interact with people. Instead of trying to win an argument, what would happen if I really was curious about other people, believe the best about them, wanted to express concern about things they were caring about, and then how to share my life? So I really began to study this. And what kind of questions could I ask people that would really open the door to warm connections? And obviously, Jesus, he asks questions in every category of what it means to be human. And we can really think about, okay, Jesus, as you live out your resurrected life through us, how can we ask meaningful questions that will help us connect to other people?
Curiosity Replaces Parental Control And Supports Connection At Home
Dr. Jessica Peck Heather, I could not love this more because I think this is really practical, and this is where you and I can probably really nerd out together. Because when we look at the research is always points back to the scripture, always see science, always goes back to the plan that was given to us by God from the very beginning. That is for our good and for his glory. And exactly, exactly like you said, when we see the research, it's kind of like, okay, yes, in our human frailty, we can affirm God's design for us to walk in relationship. And as you're talking about those four mindsets, curiosity, believing the best, expressing concern, sharing our lives. This is a beautiful framework, a beautiful blueprint for family life. And if parents to kids and even within marriage, if we lead with curiosity. What I find, Heather, is the opposite of curiosity is controlled. It's like I, okay, I've heard all that. I need to enact my algorithm to control your behavior so that I get an immediate feedback loop that we are in good relationship. I don't care if we really are. I just need to control your behavior and speech so that we can do that. When we come back, we're going to talk more about this, because that loving conversation begins with a willingness to discover something about another person, whether it's your spouse, your child, somebody at school, somebody at work. But for parents, that may mean pausing long enough to ask, what is this experience like for my child? How can I meet them where we are? When we return, Heather's going to help us open new pathways to connection with the six conversations. You don't want to miss it. I'll see you on the other side of this break. Hello, I'm Jessica peck, host of Dr. Nursemama. Did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. And that's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast. Please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.net/give that's afr.net/give
Our God Reigns by Brandon Heath Us mine, yours and so much mine. By the morning light is thine, perfect by design, Mighty to man Light of the earth Sending a sun to echo his worth Breaker of sin, the winner of souls Every creature will know that our God reigns over heaven, over the earth our God, reigns, praise his name all sustaining all that was all that remain.
Dr. Jessica Peck Welcome back, friends. That is, Our God Reigns by Brandon Heath. And he does even over our reckless tongues and speech. And that's what we're talking about today. I am having another conversation with Professor Heather Holleman. We're talking about her book, the Six Conversations, Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. Before the break, Heather, I was just talking about the. I see the opposite of curiosity as control. How do you see that? And how do we start to recognize those unhealthy habits that we might have? Because as I said in the setup, you know, we sometimes have just been really saturated and unhealthy family culture and we just kind of think, oh, that, that's normal, but it's not normal conversation. How do we get curious about our own unhealthy habits and communication?
Dr. Heather Holleman Oh, I love that question. every single person listening and every single person reading the book, everyone is pretty good, probably in one mindset, and they're deficient in the other. So one thing I like to encourage people is just do a personal inventory. Where do you need to grow in the area of the four mindsets of a loving connection? Are you naturally curious about other people? I love how you said the opposite of curiosity is control. I've actually never thought about that before because sometimes I talk to professors who say, actually my problem is indifference. I actually don't care about your life or care about you. Now my. I'm naturally curious. My husband, he really had to grow in the area of interpersonal curiosity. And one of the things that helped him is he had to believe that every person in front of him was an infinite marvel with a one of a kind point of view on the universe. No matter how old or how young, every person could teach him something. And then he kind of goes on a treasure hunt. It's like every person you're with in your family, it could be like a sacred interaction. But the second mindset, believing the best, is actually where I see the most growth needed in families. Because the Yale relationship lab says it is not enough to believe good things about people. You actually have to do what is called expressing liking. So if you ask in your family, do the family members say things like, hey, I noticed this about you. I really love being with you. I really admired it when I saw you do this. A lot of families forget the need to express liking, and it is considered the number one closeness enhancing behavior. And spouses will burst out laughing when I say, go text your spouse. Go tell them something nice. Have you said anything nice to them in the. In the last few days? And they'll text their spouse something loving. And the spouse will text back, wait, what do you want? Sick. Did you crash the car? So, usually as I've gone around helping, doing a lot of workshops at churches with my husband, it's the first two mindsets that really have to change in families. Being curious and, and I'm talking about being curious in the way that other people enjoy you being curious about them. That's why Gary Chapman, who wrote the four five Love Languages, wrote the foreword to this book. If you're constantly asking your child, hey, how do you feel about this? Or what are you thinking about? I'm a cognitive person. My favorite Category of the six categories of conversational connection is cognitive. Like, Jessica, if we were out and you said, heather, what are you learning? What did you learn today? What are you thinking about? We would go on and on forever. Teenagers don't love that question. They love the social category. Hey, tell me, like you said, who'd you sit with at lunch? Or tell me about any drama or did anything strange happen with any of your friends? They love talking about the social category. They also love talking about the physical category, which is like, new foods, movies, songs, anything related to the five senses. Ask a teenager something about, you know, compliment them. Like, oh, I love your hair. How did you get it that way? Or your skin is glowing. Tell me about your new products. Think about categories that. That young actually like to talk in. They actually, believe it or not, love what's called the volitional category, which is, how did you decide? And that's a very empowering question. Like, hey, tell me about your day. How did you decide? Like, I asked the third grader next door, did you pack or buy your lunch? And how do you decide which day you're going to pack or buy? We had the longest and best conversation about school lunches. She even asked me, what was it like for you in the 80s? I was like, girl, we did not have chick fil A. We did not have Domino's pizza being delivered. There was no Starbucks. I had the. I mean, do you remember school lunches in the 80s? You look younger. Oh, absolutely.
Dr. Jessica Peck Metal. Metal lunchbox thermos. Like, you know, a sandwich wrapped in foil. Oh, yes. Oh, yes,
Dr. Heather Holleman exactly. Cheetos. I had, I loved, the Hostess cupcakes.
Dr. Jessica Peck But,
Dr. Heather Holleman yeah, you can really connect. You can really connect. But once you think about curiosity, so I would say most people listening, it's really the first two categories. The six conversations gives you six ways to be curious about people. Ask people in your family questions that they actually enjoy answering. Like, I love the spiritual category. But if I ask my daughters today, how was your quiet time? What is Jesus teaching you? That comes off as judgmental and too hot for them. you can't go right in with them. But if I say to my daughter, hey, tell me how you slept last night, I'll learn more about lavender, asmr, melatonin, magnesium. She loves talking about sleep. So I don't know, do you find that. Jessica, you just have to find the right question,
Dr. Jessica Peck the
Dr. Heather Holleman right category.
Dr. Jessica Peck Yes, I absolutely agree. Because, one of the most common complaints that I get from parents, especially preteens and teenagers, is that their kids won't talk to them. And I will proudly say, you know that I have had my staff call me the teen Whisperer because I know I have learned how to talk to teens. It is an acquirable skill for anyone, and you can practice starting when they're young. But it's exactly like what you said. And I. The first thing that I had to do was. Was let go. I'm sorry. Oh, I'm going to get all emotional and choked up about this. I had to let go of the control that I had because I wanted to know about things that I wanted to know. I'm asking them, like, are you making the right grades? Are you doing your homework? Are you being responsible? Are you. Am I being a good mom? And I'm looking for this validation instead of being curious about them. Now, Heather, you've given us an introduction to the six pathways. But go back and let's start from the beginning and. And talk about how easy it is in your book, how you've laid this out. Six ways to get curious and ask different lines of questioning. So let's walk back through that from the beginning.
Social Emotional Physical Cognitive Volitional And Spiritual Conversation Pathways
Dr. Heather Holleman Well, I. After I learned the four mindsets, I really had to think through. Okay, how did the Lord make us? He made us with six. There are six dimensions to us. And I'll. I'll tell you the six, six ways that we're made as humans. And you can ask categories, you can ask questions in each of those categories of what it means to be human. So every person you meet is social. They have friends and pets in their lives. They're emotional. But we tend to stay in that category. How are you? How you know, how are you feeling? You don't have to ask questions in that category ever again. You're physical, meaning physical body, physical space. Like, I love it when people say to me, I'm in my 50s, if they said, heather, how's your body feeling? Are you in any pain? Women love to talk about their bodies, and nobody asks everyone is cognitive meaning you're thinking about things? In fact, one of the questions I love asking people is, what did you find yourself thinking the most about this week? People love that because rumination and stress is so hard on the brain and when. And for them to just unburden themselves like, yeah, I can't stop thinking about is a really loving question. We're volitional. That's the fancy word for human volition. Decision making. So I have. I've made more friends by just complimenting someone in an elevator Like, I love your shoes. How did you decide to get the on clouds instead of the Nike or the Hoka? And then suddenly I'm getting a warm connection because I asked, how did you decide? The last category is spiritual, which we tend to stay away from. But I love asking people spiritual questions. Like, especially around a holiday, I'll say, oh, so, are you celebrating Ramadan? Tell me about your daily rituals or. Or is this weekend important to you? tell me about any spiritual rituals. And, you know, students love engaging like that. So you have six. I call them pathways because they're just ways to get at a warm connection with people. And often when I say in the hallway, oh, how are you? It's a terrible question. Everyone just says, fine. But if I see a faculty member and I say, oh, it's so good to see you. Tell me about your weekend. Who did you spend time with? That's a social question. And I'm going to find out all about their weekend. Like today, you know, it was the big whiteout game, which we did. Terrible Penn State. But as I saw students this morning, I just said, of course. A volitional question. Did you decide to go to the game? They'll say, yes, I went to the game. Well, what's my next question? Well, guess what? I have six combinations. I can't go anywhere else. So tell me who you went with. Social. I can ask emotional questions. Okay, you have to tell me after halftime. I need to just know how you were feeling. I can ask a cognitive question. What have you been thinking about our coach? Or what did you think about that quarterback? Just what were you thinking? You can ask a volitional question. How did you decide to get season tickets? Or how did you decide which tailgate to go to? Ask a spiritual question. Hey, did you find yourself praying about the outcome? Because I do stuff like that. You will never get lost starting or continuing a loving conversation again. And the beautiful thing is, once you have a warm connection with people, when it's your turn to share your life, talking about God never feels like a sales pitch or an awkward pivot because you're just sharing what's important to you. And you already have a warm connection with people.
Listening For Core Values Builds Trust And Reframes Family Differences
Dr. Jessica Peck And you just made that sound so easy. You took a football game. You gave us six pathways to connect with people who were there. And those warm, loving connections, those are the most effective ways to share our faith, to share the gospel. And sometimes I think people can feel really, like, deflated and defeated because they're just focusing on themselves. Like, I've got to get up the courage to deliver, you know, this, this evangelical message, when really it starts with human connections, with those
Dr. Heather Holleman just human connections,
Dr. Jessica Peck loving connections. Yeah,
Dr. Heather Holleman yeah. And it's. So the other great tip I learned is to listen, really. As, as you're giving someone your full attention, what you're listening for is core values. And when you say back to your conversation partner what you're noticing about what they value, they are going to feel so seen and loved and connected to you. For example, with this morning with the tailgate question, I'm like, hey, how'd you decide what tailgate to go to? Right? Say a student says, oh, well, I was going to go to my fraternities, but let me tell you this. They are never on time. And I like my breakfast at 9am with my coffee, and I don't want to wait for my egg sandwich. So I'm not going to go to that one. But I am going to go to the one that I know they're having barbecue. You know they're having barbecue at noon. I say that student. Wow, you really value keeping a tight schedule. You love efficiency. Tell me about this. You know, tell, me the story of why you started running your life by the clock at these tailgates. And before you know it, you are learning more about that person. And then they get to ask you a question like, what about you? Why aren't you at the tailgates? When I said to my student, well, actually, my husband and I aren't big drinkers. We actually don't drink. We don't get drunk. My students will be like, what do you mean? What do you do for fun? And I'll be like, well, you know. And it's so funny because then it actually opens the door for the gospel, because I'll say, yeah, I was a, big, you know, I used to drink a lot at University of Virginia. And then by February of my freshman year, I just had a really powerful encounter with the Lord. I was reading the book of John about what abundant life looks like. And when I was getting drunk on the weekends, that was not abundant life. Now, the student is not going to say, oh, now she's talking about Jesus. That was some awkward witnessing evangelism moment. No, we're having a warm connection because when people are like, they say to me, how are you able to just talk about Jesus all the time? Well, it's because you form warm connections and then you get to share your life in very natural ways. But my best advice is to listen for core Values, especially with your kids, because it keeps you out of. Of judgment. For example, if you want to criticize your daughter because she's not cleaning her room, guess what? She doesn't value it. What does she value instead? I remember the day I walked in Sarah's room was a nightmare. it was causing tension in the family. And I said to her, sarah, I've noticed you have such, like, a scientific mind. You're, like, deep in your mind creating all the time. I said to her, you really value that mental creativity. I said, it just occurred to me, you probably don't even notice that your bed is not made. You don't even notice that there are clothes on the floor. She was like, mom, you get me. I don't even see it. I'm. I'm thinking right now about mitosis. And I was like, okay, so it's about what your kids value. Do you know what I mean? Have you had that experience where you realize what your kids value and it's different from what you value? You. But you're connecting. You're not judging. I mean, of course, you can set up rules in your family based on family values of cleanliness, whatever, but, like, if you have a daughter that's very into fashion or makeup, I remember the day, instead of being like, wow, that's superficial, I said to one of my daughters, I've noticed you really value aesthetics. Beauty really matters to you. You keep. You keep. You're so well groomed all the time. I really think God made you value beauty and aesthetic. That is different than saying to your child, gosh, you're shallow. You are spending a ton of money at Sephora and Ulta. So it's just a different way of believing the best about people and learning from them.
Believing The Best Prevents Parents From Turning Struggles Into Labels
Dr. Jessica Peck That's exactly what I was just about to say. This goes back to believing the best about people, and it's about reframing it. And instead of walking in and thinking, okay, you're not cleaning your room. Obviously, I'm not teaching you. Well, you are not respecting me because you're not cleaning your room. You're not obeying. You're not doing what I ask you to do, therefore, you're making me uncomfortable because I feel like a bad mom every time I walk into your room. All of a sudden you flip the paradigm, and you're like, okay, what does she value? What do I believe the best? And then parents wonder. They think, how can my kid not know that I love them because I give my life for them. I give all my money for them. I give all my time to them. But when you walk into their room, you're saying, you're so lazy. You are so disrespectful. You. You are just. So we start to use language that generalizes a behavioral struggle into a character trait or. And turn that into something that. The way that God made them get curious about that. This is just conversation gold. I'll be right back with more with Professor Heather Holleman on the six conversations pathways to connecting in an age of isolation and incivility. We'll be right back with more. You don't want to miss it. And my father, your great grandfather, fought in World War II. Really? He was a gunner on the big ship out in the Pacific Ocean. Wow. Your great grandmother did her part, too. Was she on a ship? Oh, no. She stayed back home. She and a lot of her friends worked really hard in a factory because the men had gone off to war and they held scrap metal drives to help in the war effort. The folks back home were heroes, too.
Jeff Chamblee Here at the American Family association, we consider you the heroes back home as you fulfill your responsibility of caring for your family day to day. Your partnership with us is crucial as we fight the enemies of freedom in America. Thank you for your Commitment to the American Family Association. Grandpa, what's a scrap metal drive?
Indescribable by Chris Tomlin Let's get some cookies and I'll tell you all about it. From the highest of heights to the depths of the sea Creations revealing your majesty. From the colors of fall to the fragrance of, spring. Every creature unique in the song that it seem. All are exclaiming indescribable, uncontainable. You place the stars in the sky and you know them my name. You are amazing God. All powerful, untamable, all struck. We fall to our knees as we humbly break, proclaim. You are amazing God.
Dr. Jessica Peck welcome back, friends. That is Indescribable by Chris Tomlin. And sometimes you may feel that that word describes some of the conversations that you're having. I'm talking today with Professor Heather Holleman about her book, the Six Conversations Pathways to connecting in an age of isolation and incivility. And she is giving given us four mindsets and six pathways. The mindsets are curiosity, believing the best, expressing concern, and sharing our lives. And she's just shared six pathways that you can take to ask people questions that they really want to answer. That starts with getting curious, believing the best, recognizing their values. That is such a great, tip there, Heather. And in your book, you also describe three fresh goals for a loving Conversation. So what are these goals? How do they change what we hope to accomplish? And again, maybe I'm just going back to my experience too much, Heather. But I feel like people can relate because my goal a lot of times, especially as a parent, is to control the conversation, control the environment. What are different goals? How can we go into those conversations with a different intention?
Dr. Heather Holleman Well, when you think about your goal is having a warm connection. You want to think, okay, how can I end this conversation where I feel like I have a warm connection? They feel connected to me. And the research shows that you want to do one of three things. And again, you're going to be delighted because it comes right out of the Bible. You want to encourage them and think about instead of, like, in my workplace, I can often complain or maybe gossip. But what about the passage that says, let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouth, but only what is happening helpful for building one another up according to their needs. So what does it mean to say an encouraging word that goes back to believing the best? As you're talking to someone, say to them, wow, I really noticed this about you. Compliment. A strength compliment, something that you see in them. Encouragement could also be ask, you know, connecting them to their faith. Anything that will leave them with the sense that I'm encouraged here. The second thing is help them with their goals, whatever goals they have in the conversation. You could say, how do I. How can I support you? You can actually go down the six conversations and say, like, if you and I were out and you talked about wanting to write a book, I might ask a social question like, Jessica, who normally helps you with that? that's a social question. I might ask a physical question like, hey, that's a lot. Do you have a hard time sitting all day long? Do you wear compression socks? Whatever. I could ask a cognitive question. Go down the list. Yes, I've got them on right now. and so I want to think about supporting you. Always be thinking, if I'm encouraging them, am I able to support them? And that comes out of Hebrews about spurring one another on towards love and good deeds. The last one, though, is marveling. Now, this is going to be a game changer for families, because what that means is you're looking for divine activity. As someone's talking, you're noticing things like, okay, well, wait, where did God show up there? Or is there something to be grateful for? Did I notice his protection? Did I notice any supernatural activity? Now, that research is about awe. Ah, meaning it was a loneliness Intervention for, older people who were presenting with depression and anxiety. They paired two people together that didn't know each other, and they sent them on what's called an awe walk, a w e to go into nature and marvel together. When you are marveling with someone, you come back less anxious, less depressed, and more connected. We know that's true. If you take your daughter out and you're looking at the Grand Canyon or you're looking at the night sky together and you see a falling star and you start to marvel, you're going to feel that interpersonal connection. So marveling is such a challenge. But it's a beautiful way to live in a family where you say things like, gosh, that really sounds like something we can thank God for, or, oh, my goodness, that doesn't seem like a coincidence. Can you believe that God did that? Noticing what's called divine activity, which is also a deeply theological concept. Think about the Psalms. He formed the hearts of all and considers everything they do. And we know that Jesus has the power to bring everything under his control, so why wouldn't we give him credit for things that are happening in our day? So it's a way to kind of think about Jesus in the context of your family conversation. So. And that is, you know, know straight out of being thankful in all circumstances, you can think about that. So encouragement, helping people with their goals and, marveling. And the other thing, if you're a parent, I learned from a coach, a parenting coach, that when you're helping people with their goals, if you're controlling like I am, and like you said you were, instead of solving your child's problems, you simply say, this sounds really hard. How do you think, Think you're going to handle this? Or what are your resources that you have? And then what you say to your child is, where do you need my help? Why do you do that? You're supporting them, but you're empowering them to be the one that starts to solve their own problems. So now I say this to my colleagues. That sounds really hard. What are you going to do about it? What's your next step? Not, oh, I can help you, but what do you think? How do you think you're going to handle that is a very empowering question.
Dr. Jessica Peck I love everything that you're saying. And I'm thinking about a recent conversation I had with my son, and he had faced something really, really hard. He had something unfair happen to him and came home and talked about it. And, you know, at the Mama Bear is real, right? Isn't it. Yeah. I mean, you could easily. I mean, I could have easily gone down a path of how dare they. I'm calling their mother. No one's m gonna treat my child like that, you know, that's not gonna happen. Or what did you do in this? You know, I mean, you could just go of unhealthy directions and you know, I am really. What I did was marveling. And I didn't have the word for that until I read about your work, Heather. But honestly, I looked at that right then, and the first thing that I thought of was, the Lord goes before you. Do you see how the circumstances were orchestrated and you were protected in this way and this way and this way, and God equipped and prayed your heart. Do you remember that conversation that we just had last week about this? Do you you see how even though this was going to happen and the Lord, for whatever reason, saw fit not to stop it from happening, but he was so gracious to prepare you for this moment, and you can step up in this m moment. Oh, I'm getting goosebumps right now. No,
Dr. Heather Holleman I love that.
Dr. Jessica Peck But that's such a difference. But it sounds so simple. It sounds so simple. But yet we go to what you call this default conversation style, because, yeah, we all think, I want to talk about that. But Heather, I think you and I can both say this did not. If you're listening to us talk and think, oh, why can't I talk like that? It did not come overnight. Like, it takes intention and practice and I still get it wrong.
Dr. Heather Holleman Yes, I love that you were able to marvel. Our family's favorite motto is every rejection is God's protection. Because we like to see how God sovereignly cared for us, even if it was a really hard situation. So I love that. And you're right, these things can immediately, Even though it takes a while, you can see immediate improvement if you just ask a few questions that people enjoy. Like, what went well today? What did you want to celebrate about your day? And you'll see that as you ask loving, curious questions with a really good follow up. Like, I like asking if I ask my students, hey, what are you celebrating? Do you have any good news? My next question is, who's the first person you wanted to share that with? Because you learn about their best friends and then you can just go on and on. But again, you never get lost. Lost. And my husband's an introvert who is very shy. He doesn't think well on his feet by his own admission. And he's really Proof of concept for this book, he has completely transformed his conversational style. And now he has more friends than I do. My girls are often wanting to talk to him instead of me. They're like, dad understands my emotions. He asks better questions. I'm like, okay, call your dad. Ouch. So the book is great, especially if you feel like you just want to learn. Yes.
Dr. Jessica Peck But you've given us such practical ways to do that. You know, as a nurse, I always use tell me about, like, oh, tell me about, tell me about that. Because, you know, I think that younger generations, kids, they want that curious conversation. They want somebody who's going to listen with their face, who's going to be invested in them, who's going to believe the best about them. And, and do you know what you had said before? And, and and where is it? Being curious, believing the best, expressing concern and sharing their lives. But so often I think, get, it's so hard because we just go in to give unsolicited advice. Like as soon as they say something, oh, you shouldn't do that, or what are you, what are you doing? Where are you going to school? Why aren't you dating anybody? And we just kind of start this inquisition. It's really hard to pull back and to be curious. And what I hear from a lot of parents, Heather, is that, you know, when we're talking about this kind of conversation style, especially from dads, let's, since you brought your husband into the picture, let's talk about that. They'll say that, oh, that sounds too soft. Like you gotta tell them what's right and what's wrong. And this is just coddling their emot. Emotions. And you know, they've got to be a little tougher than that. What, how would you push back on that concern?
Well, there is a time for, you know, parenting and giving wisdom
Dr. Heather Holleman Well, there is a time for, you know, parenting and giving wisdom. But for example, with expressing concern, if you're a dad and you say to your child, okay, tell me what the biggest, thing stressing you out this week is. And your child says, oh, I'm really stressed out because I have my project due on Friday. And then as the dad, you're like, well, you had three months to work on it. This is your fault. You procrastinated. You know, why didn't you listen to me?
Dr. Jessica Peck So relatable.
Dr. Heather Holleman I, again, again, what you say is that really sounds, you know, stressful. What, what's your plan moving forward? How, how can mom and I support you? It's a way of, it's a way of empowering Your kids and. And giving them a sense that. I mean, it depends how old they are, but if it's like a nine year old, you could say to them, hey, do you need mom and dad to help you with time management this week? You know, instead of, you are a failure. You should have done this last week. Week, you know, your mom and I, whatever. So it's a way. It's just a different way of. Of thinking through, like, Philippians, too, like, honoring them. You know, they have dignity, you know, and thinking about, okay, what kind of family culture do we want to have here? But there is a time to talk about, you know, virtues and rules and. And house rules. All that is normal part of family life. But again, you could talk about it in terms of. Of what the family values. You could say, you know, we value you not procrastinating because it creates a lot of stress on the family. You can have a very loving conversation where you stay warmly connected and you're still showing what the family rules are, is different from, you know, shaming or insulting that kind of language. But it is hard. I raised one procrastinator and one, who gets her assignments done, like, a year in advance, and you have four. Right? I'm sure they're all different. Oh,
Dr. Jessica Peck they're all so different. But, you know, what I've learned is that validating their emotions, experience in the moment, that is a connection that I can have with them, a warm connection. They feel seen. They feel like, okay, I know that mom sees that I'm anxious, and. And when they come home with the, you know, with a bad grade and, you know that they didn't study, instead of leading with lecturing and saying, well, you should have. You should have known better, of course this happened. Why are you surprised? I can say, you know what? It never feels good to do poorly on an exam. That's a terrible feeling. I'm so sorry you're experiencing that. Let's talk about the decisions. Tell me about the. How did you decide? I'm gonna steal that from you. Yeah,
Dr. Heather Holleman right there
Dr. Jessica Peck shamelessly. How did you decide how to prepare for this? And how can we change those decisions to set you up for success? And when parents, you know, push back on that to me and say, like, oh, no, we just need to tell them what to do. And I say, well, if you have a kid who's struggling with something and you're leading with lecturing, how's that working for you? Like, are they getting better? Because most of the time they don't. They Say, I've told you this a thousand times. Maybe a different strategy would be helpful.
God’s Questions Shape Honest Conversation And The Show Concludes
And, Heather, I could talk to you about this for a long time, but I want to shift gears for just a second before we leave our time together, because one of the things that I wanted to ask you about, you've been so good at just integrating God's word. One of my favorite verses that you said was from Ephesians 4 about let no unwholesome talk. You've just integrated God's word into this. Your final chapter in this book explores God's questions in Genesis. And so I want to take it all the way back to the very beginning and take it back to those questions. And how does our conversation with God shape the way that we approach conversations with other people?
Dr. Heather Holleman Oh, man, we could go forever. This could be a whole other podcast. I love if you look at the kinds of questions God asks us. It's so beautiful. Think about the qu. Go reread Genesis. It's like, where are you? Like, Jessica, where are you today? Like, God's like, where are you? And
Dr. Jessica Peck he knew
Dr. Heather Holleman what I love. Yeah, what I love is. Is, who told you you were naked? What I love about that is, who are you authorizing to tell you about yourself? Like, who told you? And then the last question is, what have you done? that's important, because this idea of why we're believers, why we follow Christ, has a lot to do with sin. Like, we need a savior. What have you done? Is such a question of, yeah, I've fallen short. I need. I need Jesus to cover my sin. I need to pray and ask him to forgive my sin and come and live in my heart. And the thing that's so good about those three questions is I think it's a question. The questions that everyone needs to ask, where I. Where am I in relation to God? Who am I authorizing to tell me what my identity is, and then do I need the Lord? is the wage of sin, death? Like, what is this idea of sin? So I love that. And remember, Satan had a question, too. He's the master of lying and inversion. And his question to Eve was, did God really say so? There are, forces against us that are calling into question who God is. And you have to ask yourself, like, what are the questions swirling in my head right now that are calling into question what I know to be true about God?
Dr. Jessica Peck I hate that we have to leave it there. Radio is so rude. Our time together is finished. But if you want the answer to that question, get a copy of this book. The Six Conversations Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. Heather Holleman. Hate to leave it there, but pick it up here. As you do. I pray as always. Do the Lord bless you and keep you. Make his face shine upon you. I'll see you next time. We'd like to thank our sponsors, including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and has seen over 100,000 commitments to Christ. Will you join PreBorn in continuing this good work? supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR
Jeff Chamblee the views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Dr. Jessica Peck We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection and the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28 to donate, dial pound250 and say the keyword baby or visit preborn.com/AFR $28 may not sound like much, but to a scared mother considering abortion, it can help provide something incredibly important. A real opportunity to pause and see her baby for the first time. Today, a woman facing an unexpected pregnancy can reach for her phone, search for abortion pills, connect with a provider online and have the pills delivered directly to her home. She can move from fear toward abortion incredibly quickly. But your gift can help create another opportunity. For just $28, you can help provide a free ultrasound through a PreBorn Network clinic. There, a woman can see her baby talk with people who will listen to what she's facing, receive compassionate support and consider another choice before abortion becomes her answer. And when women see their babies through an ultrasound at a PreBorn Network clinic, 80% choose life. $28 can help provide one ultrasound $280 can help provide 10. Reach her before the pill does with your strongest gift today! Dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250 baby or visit preborn.com/AFR that's preborn.com/AFR all gifts are tax- deductible and PreBorn is a five star rated charity. preborn.com/AFR
hello and welcome to the Doctor Nurse Mama show prescribing Hope for healthy families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day. I love getting to spend time talking with you. Prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. And we're talking about talking today. We're talking about conversation. And I want to ask you a question. When was the last time you had a conversation that you left feeling like the person you were talking to truly knew you? Someone maybe asked a thoughtful question. Somebody actually listened to your answer, listened with their face and stayed interested long enough to ask another good question. You didn't feel rushed or corrected or measured against someone else's experience. You felt that what you had to say matters. You know how that feels when you walk away from a conversation like that. I always felt like that after I Talked with my granny. But I want you to think now about how much communication happens in modern context. We send a quick text, a, direct message, a, reaction to a message, or just maybe even not a word. An emoji that maybe we don't even recognize or aren't sure how to interpret. My husband always tells me, don't send me emojis. I don't speak emoji. We can send a heart to a message without really hearing someone's heart. We can keep a message thread going for days, just really talking about nothing. These tools help us stay in touch. But meaningful communication is about connection, and it takes attention and curiosity and something that's really valuable, and that's time. In a world that gives us endless opportunities to exchange messages, we need to protect opportunities to have conversations, because that is where our most important relationships are going to be forged. And that begins at home. You probably have remembered, this conversation. If you have kids or you have had kids, asking them, how was school? Fine. What did you do? Nothing. You know that exchange very well. But we want to hear the story. But we might be just asking at a moment when our kid is really tired or hungry or just still sorting through what happened. A younger kid may struggle to organize an entire day into one answer to a very broad question, like, we're expecting them to have a level of communication that they don't. Or there may be a teenager who is deciding whether sharing something is safe and it'll lead to understanding, or a lecture or a series of questions that maybe they aren't ready to answer yet. Sometimes a smaller invitation will open a bigger door, like, who did you sit beside at lunch? What made you laugh today? Was there a moment today that you wished you could do over? And sometimes the best thing that we can do is just make room for quiet and be good listeners. Because kids don't always open up on our schedule, a story often emerges at the most inconvenient times. When we're cooking, when we're trying to drive home or walk the dog, or when there's just space to talk without with the pressure being put on the spot, and we, we don't have that space to talk. Children learn conversation through thousands of these ordinary exchanges. They practice finding their words for learning, taking turns noticing someone else's perspective. This is a real developmental task. And they discover how to disagree without becoming disconnected from someone. They also learn what happens when they tell the truth. Is it safe to admit a mistake? Can they express disappointment in what we said, what we did? Can they Say, I don't understand. Can they even say, that hurt my feelings and expect someone to help them work through it? Our responses help shape those expectations.
Parents Can Repair Old Communication Patterns And Model Humility
When we pause and say, tell me what happened, we are giving our children practice putting an experience into words. And when we ask, what do you think your friend was feeling? We are inviting perspective. When we say, I interrupted you. I'm sorry. Please finish. We're modeling humility and relationship rupture and repair, which are everyday healthy opportunities to teach skills that our children really need in their friendships, in their classrooms. They'll need them one day in the mar, in their marriage or their workplace or their future families. But a lot of us, the tough thing is we're learning those skills as we're trying to teach them. We're bringing our own family history into the conversation. Maybe you grew up in a home where the loudest person controlled the discussion. Maybe it was the scary, silent one who controlled the discussion or shut it down. Maybe difficult subjects were just kind of brushed over with humor or just quickly changed the subject. Maybe disagreement was equated to disrespect and private struggles that you share became family gossip. Or maybe you never got an apology from an adult in your life, a parent or another caregiver, and you maybe just learned to keep the peace by just staying quiet, just not talking about your feelings, just defending myself before anybody stops speaking. Or, just you feel a need to hide because expressing it is really hard. Now listen. These patterns are really familiar. They feel normal and even comfortable. And if you're. You have a calm disagreement, it may just feel unsettling. If you're accustomed to anger, you. You're used to somebody blowing up when they say something. You're not used to that quiet. And sometimes if somebody asks about your feelings, it just feels intrusive somehow. Or if you've never discussed them and you may love your child really deeply and you still hear yourself using words that adults used in your life that you wish that you hadn't. Listen. The recognizing that is where we're starting today. This is such an opportunity to grow. We can appreciate what our families gave us, and we can also examine the habits we want to change. We can stay present even when conversation's uncomfortable. We can practice and asking before assuming. And we can give our kids the experience of an adult who says, I'm sorry, let me try that again. I did not say that. Well, let me try that again. This work matters in the culture that our kids are navigating, because they can be really confused by what they're hearing. And as adults, we need that practice, too. And we are going to practice today. I'm delighted to welcome back Dr. Heather Holleman. We listen. You might remember Heather from our earlier conversation about her fiction series for young readers. Her Elita Brown series, beginning with this seat Saves it. they're so precious, and they talk about friendship and belonging and the assurance of being seated with Christ. It was so wonderful. And those themes are really applicable to what we're talking about today. We're talking about another one of her books, the Six Conversations, Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. And I am so excited to talk about this. So as we're. As we're talking, as Heather and I have a conversation, I want you to bring one relationship to mind. Is there a kid that you're struggling to reach in your house? Is it your spouse? Maybe you share a home or a friend? Today's conversation is really an open invitation, and I am so glad to invite and welcome. Heather. Thank you for coming back and spending some more time with us. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.
Dr. Heather Holleman Oh, thank you for having me. As you were talking, I thought, wait, I should just sit back and listen. I would. I was just, like, taking notes, like, oh, yes, that's true. This is what we think about when we're raised in certain ways. So I love how you think. I love how, you just have a really good understanding of the psychology of family, parenting, and kids. I want to listen more, but I guess I'm the one being interviewed, so.
Dr. Jessica Peck That's right. Exactly. Well, I'm going to have to make sure you know that payment for that endorsement, you know, clearly went through. No, I'm kidding, Heather. But it's true. I really appreciate the things that I have learned. And, you know, when I first started off as a mom, I was really, really bad at communication. Honestly, Heather, I was terrible. I brought in old, destructive patterns. I heard myself saying things to kids. I was not building relationships. I was burning bridges right and left. And I could have all of this professor knowledge. But I. I know God met me when My oldest was 13, and he gave me a new mindset and a new skill set. And that is what we can share as common grace today. So tell us, Heather, you know, you're a professor, too. What convicted you? What conviction from the Lord did you have to write this book, the Six Conversations to really Equip People for Relationship Building?
Dr. Heather Holleman Well, what started it all was actually the loneliness epidemic, that I was reading about. On college campuses. And I was reading health studies about the impact of loneliness. How when you're lonely, it's like smoking 15 cigarettes a day. You know, you're increasing your risk of premature death. I was just reading a lot of health studies, you know, the CIGNA Health study. I read the surgeon general's report, and I was also showing my students the Harvard grant study, which is the longest research study ever conducted. It's trying to answer the question, what's the single most determining factor of a happy life? And the answer was whether or not you have warm connections and social support. And my students would look at me and they'd say, yeah, we don't have that. We. How do we get warm connections? Because it was such a culture of just real incivility, isolation. And of course, I love talking to people about Jesus. And as I was helping people understand how to talk about faith. Faith. They would say things like, I love talking about my faith, but could you go back and teach me how to have conversations in general? So really, it was loneliness. And also, like you, I was a national, debater. I'm someone that loves knowledge, and I love to win arguments. That's terrible. That is a terrible way to live in marriage and with parenting. So I was convicted about intervening in the loneliness epidemic and then also becoming a more loving communicator, based on what I was reading in the social science research and also the Bible. What was the Bible saying about how to become a more loving communicator that can form warm connections with other people?
Dr. Jessica Peck That's a great place to pick up, because one of the things you talk about is the theology of a loving conversation. I talk about theology all the time now. I am a nurse practitioner. I am not a theologian. But I do believe that theology is for everyone. How does seeing another person is made in God's. God's image? That's talking about theology here. How does that change the way that we listen and speak? What is theology of a loving conversation?
Biblical Principles Align With Four Mindsets For Warm Human Connection
Dr. Heather Holleman Well, I love that you said that, because I love theology. I tell my students, like, I just can read theology all day long. I love learning about God. I love studying what the Bible tells us about how to live well and what is human flourishing. So imagine this. I'm reading all of the research available to me. I am reading every research article I can, trying to answer the question, how do you actually form warm connections with people? And I found out that you have to do four things. And when I tell you these four things, you're gonna laugh, because I Was like, wait, where have I heard this before? And it suddenly seemed very biblical. So the research was showing me that in order to have a warm connection, you have to be curious, believe the best, express concern, and share your life. Now, they had technical research terms, but I was looking at them, I said, you know, this sounds a lot like Philippians 2. This sounds a lot like Romans 12. So I went back to Philippians 2, and it talks about valuing others above yourself, taking on the interests of other people. So I'm reading these things, and when I got to Romans 12 about outdoing one another and showing honor, you know, contributing to the needs of the saints, I was like, wait a second. I have to be curious enough about people to know what they're concerned about. I have to believe the best about them. Because Romans 12 is really about loving your enemies. And I thought, well, what does it mean to believe the best about people expressing concern? I was like, gosh, that's. That's Galatians 6. Like, carry one another's burdens and then sharing your life. You hear, you know, Jesus at, the end of Philippians 2, he takes on the nature of a servant. You can think about Paul and Thessalonians talking about sharing his life. So it really began to be, for me, Christian discipleship. Like, when you follow what you're learning in Philippians and Romans, it's like, gosh, I need to change the way I interact with people. Instead of trying to win an argument, what would happen if I really was curious about other people, believe the best about them, wanted to express concern about things they were caring about, and then how to share my life? So I really began to study this. And what kind of questions could I ask people that would really open the door to warm connections? And obviously, Jesus, he asks questions in every category of what it means to be human. And we can really think about, okay, Jesus, as you live out your resurrected life through us, how can we ask meaningful questions that will help us connect to other people?
Curiosity Replaces Parental Control And Supports Connection At Home
Dr. Jessica Peck Heather, I could not love this more because I think this is really practical, and this is where you and I can probably really nerd out together. Because when we look at the research is always points back to the scripture, always see science, always goes back to the plan that was given to us by God from the very beginning. That is for our good and for his glory. And exactly, exactly like you said, when we see the research, it's kind of like, okay, yes, in our human frailty, we can affirm God's design for us to walk in relationship. And as you're talking about those four mindsets, curiosity, believing the best, expressing concern, sharing our lives. This is a beautiful framework, a beautiful blueprint for family life. And if parents to kids and even within marriage, if we lead with curiosity. What I find, Heather, is the opposite of curiosity is controlled. It's like I, okay, I've heard all that. I need to enact my algorithm to control your behavior so that I get an immediate feedback loop that we are in good relationship. I don't care if we really are. I just need to control your behavior and speech so that we can do that. When we come back, we're going to talk more about this, because that loving conversation begins with a willingness to discover something about another person, whether it's your spouse, your child, somebody at school, somebody at work. But for parents, that may mean pausing long enough to ask, what is this experience like for my child? How can I meet them where we are? When we return, Heather's going to help us open new pathways to connection with the six conversations. You don't want to miss it. I'll see you on the other side of this break. Hello, I'm Jessica peck, host of Dr. Nursemama. Did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. And that's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast. Please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.net/give that's afr.net/give
Our God Reigns by Brandon Heath Us mine, yours and so much mine. By the morning light is thine, perfect by design, Mighty to man Light of the earth Sending a sun to echo his worth Breaker of sin, the winner of souls Every creature will know that our God reigns over heaven, over the earth our God, reigns, praise his name all sustaining all that was all that remain.
Dr. Jessica Peck Welcome back, friends. That is, Our God Reigns by Brandon Heath. And he does even over our reckless tongues and speech. And that's what we're talking about today. I am having another conversation with Professor Heather Holleman. We're talking about her book, the Six Conversations, Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. Before the break, Heather, I was just talking about the. I see the opposite of curiosity as control. How do you see that? And how do we start to recognize those unhealthy habits that we might have? Because as I said in the setup, you know, we sometimes have just been really saturated and unhealthy family culture and we just kind of think, oh, that, that's normal, but it's not normal conversation. How do we get curious about our own unhealthy habits and communication?
Dr. Heather Holleman Oh, I love that question. every single person listening and every single person reading the book, everyone is pretty good, probably in one mindset, and they're deficient in the other. So one thing I like to encourage people is just do a personal inventory. Where do you need to grow in the area of the four mindsets of a loving connection? Are you naturally curious about other people? I love how you said the opposite of curiosity is control. I've actually never thought about that before because sometimes I talk to professors who say, actually my problem is indifference. I actually don't care about your life or care about you. Now my. I'm naturally curious. My husband, he really had to grow in the area of interpersonal curiosity. And one of the things that helped him is he had to believe that every person in front of him was an infinite marvel with a one of a kind point of view on the universe. No matter how old or how young, every person could teach him something. And then he kind of goes on a treasure hunt. It's like every person you're with in your family, it could be like a sacred interaction. But the second mindset, believing the best, is actually where I see the most growth needed in families. Because the Yale relationship lab says it is not enough to believe good things about people. You actually have to do what is called expressing liking. So if you ask in your family, do the family members say things like, hey, I noticed this about you. I really love being with you. I really admired it when I saw you do this. A lot of families forget the need to express liking, and it is considered the number one closeness enhancing behavior. And spouses will burst out laughing when I say, go text your spouse. Go tell them something nice. Have you said anything nice to them in the. In the last few days? And they'll text their spouse something loving. And the spouse will text back, wait, what do you want? Sick. Did you crash the car? So, usually as I've gone around helping, doing a lot of workshops at churches with my husband, it's the first two mindsets that really have to change in families. Being curious and, and I'm talking about being curious in the way that other people enjoy you being curious about them. That's why Gary Chapman, who wrote the four five Love Languages, wrote the foreword to this book. If you're constantly asking your child, hey, how do you feel about this? Or what are you thinking about? I'm a cognitive person. My favorite Category of the six categories of conversational connection is cognitive. Like, Jessica, if we were out and you said, heather, what are you learning? What did you learn today? What are you thinking about? We would go on and on forever. Teenagers don't love that question. They love the social category. Hey, tell me, like you said, who'd you sit with at lunch? Or tell me about any drama or did anything strange happen with any of your friends? They love talking about the social category. They also love talking about the physical category, which is like, new foods, movies, songs, anything related to the five senses. Ask a teenager something about, you know, compliment them. Like, oh, I love your hair. How did you get it that way? Or your skin is glowing. Tell me about your new products. Think about categories that. That young actually like to talk in. They actually, believe it or not, love what's called the volitional category, which is, how did you decide? And that's a very empowering question. Like, hey, tell me about your day. How did you decide? Like, I asked the third grader next door, did you pack or buy your lunch? And how do you decide which day you're going to pack or buy? We had the longest and best conversation about school lunches. She even asked me, what was it like for you in the 80s? I was like, girl, we did not have chick fil A. We did not have Domino's pizza being delivered. There was no Starbucks. I had the. I mean, do you remember school lunches in the 80s? You look younger. Oh, absolutely.
Dr. Jessica Peck Metal. Metal lunchbox thermos. Like, you know, a sandwich wrapped in foil. Oh, yes. Oh, yes,
Dr. Heather Holleman exactly. Cheetos. I had, I loved, the Hostess cupcakes.
Dr. Jessica Peck But,
Dr. Heather Holleman yeah, you can really connect. You can really connect. But once you think about curiosity, so I would say most people listening, it's really the first two categories. The six conversations gives you six ways to be curious about people. Ask people in your family questions that they actually enjoy answering. Like, I love the spiritual category. But if I ask my daughters today, how was your quiet time? What is Jesus teaching you? That comes off as judgmental and too hot for them. you can't go right in with them. But if I say to my daughter, hey, tell me how you slept last night, I'll learn more about lavender, asmr, melatonin, magnesium. She loves talking about sleep. So I don't know, do you find that. Jessica, you just have to find the right question,
Dr. Jessica Peck the
Dr. Heather Holleman right category.
Dr. Jessica Peck Yes, I absolutely agree. Because, one of the most common complaints that I get from parents, especially preteens and teenagers, is that their kids won't talk to them. And I will proudly say, you know that I have had my staff call me the teen Whisperer because I know I have learned how to talk to teens. It is an acquirable skill for anyone, and you can practice starting when they're young. But it's exactly like what you said. And I. The first thing that I had to do was. Was let go. I'm sorry. Oh, I'm going to get all emotional and choked up about this. I had to let go of the control that I had because I wanted to know about things that I wanted to know. I'm asking them, like, are you making the right grades? Are you doing your homework? Are you being responsible? Are you. Am I being a good mom? And I'm looking for this validation instead of being curious about them. Now, Heather, you've given us an introduction to the six pathways. But go back and let's start from the beginning and. And talk about how easy it is in your book, how you've laid this out. Six ways to get curious and ask different lines of questioning. So let's walk back through that from the beginning.
Social Emotional Physical Cognitive Volitional And Spiritual Conversation Pathways
Dr. Heather Holleman Well, I. After I learned the four mindsets, I really had to think through. Okay, how did the Lord make us? He made us with six. There are six dimensions to us. And I'll. I'll tell you the six, six ways that we're made as humans. And you can ask categories, you can ask questions in each of those categories of what it means to be human. So every person you meet is social. They have friends and pets in their lives. They're emotional. But we tend to stay in that category. How are you? How you know, how are you feeling? You don't have to ask questions in that category ever again. You're physical, meaning physical body, physical space. Like, I love it when people say to me, I'm in my 50s, if they said, heather, how's your body feeling? Are you in any pain? Women love to talk about their bodies, and nobody asks everyone is cognitive meaning you're thinking about things? In fact, one of the questions I love asking people is, what did you find yourself thinking the most about this week? People love that because rumination and stress is so hard on the brain and when. And for them to just unburden themselves like, yeah, I can't stop thinking about is a really loving question. We're volitional. That's the fancy word for human volition. Decision making. So I have. I've made more friends by just complimenting someone in an elevator Like, I love your shoes. How did you decide to get the on clouds instead of the Nike or the Hoka? And then suddenly I'm getting a warm connection because I asked, how did you decide? The last category is spiritual, which we tend to stay away from. But I love asking people spiritual questions. Like, especially around a holiday, I'll say, oh, so, are you celebrating Ramadan? Tell me about your daily rituals or. Or is this weekend important to you? tell me about any spiritual rituals. And, you know, students love engaging like that. So you have six. I call them pathways because they're just ways to get at a warm connection with people. And often when I say in the hallway, oh, how are you? It's a terrible question. Everyone just says, fine. But if I see a faculty member and I say, oh, it's so good to see you. Tell me about your weekend. Who did you spend time with? That's a social question. And I'm going to find out all about their weekend. Like today, you know, it was the big whiteout game, which we did. Terrible Penn State. But as I saw students this morning, I just said, of course. A volitional question. Did you decide to go to the game? They'll say, yes, I went to the game. Well, what's my next question? Well, guess what? I have six combinations. I can't go anywhere else. So tell me who you went with. Social. I can ask emotional questions. Okay, you have to tell me after halftime. I need to just know how you were feeling. I can ask a cognitive question. What have you been thinking about our coach? Or what did you think about that quarterback? Just what were you thinking? You can ask a volitional question. How did you decide to get season tickets? Or how did you decide which tailgate to go to? Ask a spiritual question. Hey, did you find yourself praying about the outcome? Because I do stuff like that. You will never get lost starting or continuing a loving conversation again. And the beautiful thing is, once you have a warm connection with people, when it's your turn to share your life, talking about God never feels like a sales pitch or an awkward pivot because you're just sharing what's important to you. And you already have a warm connection with people.
Listening For Core Values Builds Trust And Reframes Family Differences
Dr. Jessica Peck And you just made that sound so easy. You took a football game. You gave us six pathways to connect with people who were there. And those warm, loving connections, those are the most effective ways to share our faith, to share the gospel. And sometimes I think people can feel really, like, deflated and defeated because they're just focusing on themselves. Like, I've got to get up the courage to deliver, you know, this, this evangelical message, when really it starts with human connections, with those
Dr. Heather Holleman just human connections,
Dr. Jessica Peck loving connections. Yeah,
Dr. Heather Holleman yeah. And it's. So the other great tip I learned is to listen, really. As, as you're giving someone your full attention, what you're listening for is core values. And when you say back to your conversation partner what you're noticing about what they value, they are going to feel so seen and loved and connected to you. For example, with this morning with the tailgate question, I'm like, hey, how'd you decide what tailgate to go to? Right? Say a student says, oh, well, I was going to go to my fraternities, but let me tell you this. They are never on time. And I like my breakfast at 9am with my coffee, and I don't want to wait for my egg sandwich. So I'm not going to go to that one. But I am going to go to the one that I know they're having barbecue. You know they're having barbecue at noon. I say that student. Wow, you really value keeping a tight schedule. You love efficiency. Tell me about this. You know, tell, me the story of why you started running your life by the clock at these tailgates. And before you know it, you are learning more about that person. And then they get to ask you a question like, what about you? Why aren't you at the tailgates? When I said to my student, well, actually, my husband and I aren't big drinkers. We actually don't drink. We don't get drunk. My students will be like, what do you mean? What do you do for fun? And I'll be like, well, you know. And it's so funny because then it actually opens the door for the gospel, because I'll say, yeah, I was a, big, you know, I used to drink a lot at University of Virginia. And then by February of my freshman year, I just had a really powerful encounter with the Lord. I was reading the book of John about what abundant life looks like. And when I was getting drunk on the weekends, that was not abundant life. Now, the student is not going to say, oh, now she's talking about Jesus. That was some awkward witnessing evangelism moment. No, we're having a warm connection because when people are like, they say to me, how are you able to just talk about Jesus all the time? Well, it's because you form warm connections and then you get to share your life in very natural ways. But my best advice is to listen for core Values, especially with your kids, because it keeps you out of. Of judgment. For example, if you want to criticize your daughter because she's not cleaning her room, guess what? She doesn't value it. What does she value instead? I remember the day I walked in Sarah's room was a nightmare. it was causing tension in the family. And I said to her, sarah, I've noticed you have such, like, a scientific mind. You're, like, deep in your mind creating all the time. I said to her, you really value that mental creativity. I said, it just occurred to me, you probably don't even notice that your bed is not made. You don't even notice that there are clothes on the floor. She was like, mom, you get me. I don't even see it. I'm. I'm thinking right now about mitosis. And I was like, okay, so it's about what your kids value. Do you know what I mean? Have you had that experience where you realize what your kids value and it's different from what you value? You. But you're connecting. You're not judging. I mean, of course, you can set up rules in your family based on family values of cleanliness, whatever, but, like, if you have a daughter that's very into fashion or makeup, I remember the day, instead of being like, wow, that's superficial, I said to one of my daughters, I've noticed you really value aesthetics. Beauty really matters to you. You keep. You keep. You're so well groomed all the time. I really think God made you value beauty and aesthetic. That is different than saying to your child, gosh, you're shallow. You are spending a ton of money at Sephora and Ulta. So it's just a different way of believing the best about people and learning from them.
Believing The Best Prevents Parents From Turning Struggles Into Labels
Dr. Jessica Peck That's exactly what I was just about to say. This goes back to believing the best about people, and it's about reframing it. And instead of walking in and thinking, okay, you're not cleaning your room. Obviously, I'm not teaching you. Well, you are not respecting me because you're not cleaning your room. You're not obeying. You're not doing what I ask you to do, therefore, you're making me uncomfortable because I feel like a bad mom every time I walk into your room. All of a sudden you flip the paradigm, and you're like, okay, what does she value? What do I believe the best? And then parents wonder. They think, how can my kid not know that I love them because I give my life for them. I give all my money for them. I give all my time to them. But when you walk into their room, you're saying, you're so lazy. You are so disrespectful. You. You are just. So we start to use language that generalizes a behavioral struggle into a character trait or. And turn that into something that. The way that God made them get curious about that. This is just conversation gold. I'll be right back with more with Professor Heather Holleman on the six conversations pathways to connecting in an age of isolation and incivility. We'll be right back with more. You don't want to miss it. And my father, your great grandfather, fought in World War II. Really? He was a gunner on the big ship out in the Pacific Ocean. Wow. Your great grandmother did her part, too. Was she on a ship? Oh, no. She stayed back home. She and a lot of her friends worked really hard in a factory because the men had gone off to war and they held scrap metal drives to help in the war effort. The folks back home were heroes, too.
Jeff Chamblee Here at the American Family association, we consider you the heroes back home as you fulfill your responsibility of caring for your family day to day. Your partnership with us is crucial as we fight the enemies of freedom in America. Thank you for your Commitment to the American Family Association. Grandpa, what's a scrap metal drive?
Indescribable by Chris Tomlin Let's get some cookies and I'll tell you all about it. From the highest of heights to the depths of the sea Creations revealing your majesty. From the colors of fall to the fragrance of, spring. Every creature unique in the song that it seem. All are exclaiming indescribable, uncontainable. You place the stars in the sky and you know them my name. You are amazing God. All powerful, untamable, all struck. We fall to our knees as we humbly break, proclaim. You are amazing God.
Dr. Jessica Peck welcome back, friends. That is Indescribable by Chris Tomlin. And sometimes you may feel that that word describes some of the conversations that you're having. I'm talking today with Professor Heather Holleman about her book, the Six Conversations Pathways to connecting in an age of isolation and incivility. And she is giving given us four mindsets and six pathways. The mindsets are curiosity, believing the best, expressing concern, and sharing our lives. And she's just shared six pathways that you can take to ask people questions that they really want to answer. That starts with getting curious, believing the best, recognizing their values. That is such a great, tip there, Heather. And in your book, you also describe three fresh goals for a loving Conversation. So what are these goals? How do they change what we hope to accomplish? And again, maybe I'm just going back to my experience too much, Heather. But I feel like people can relate because my goal a lot of times, especially as a parent, is to control the conversation, control the environment. What are different goals? How can we go into those conversations with a different intention?
Dr. Heather Holleman Well, when you think about your goal is having a warm connection. You want to think, okay, how can I end this conversation where I feel like I have a warm connection? They feel connected to me. And the research shows that you want to do one of three things. And again, you're going to be delighted because it comes right out of the Bible. You want to encourage them and think about instead of, like, in my workplace, I can often complain or maybe gossip. But what about the passage that says, let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouth, but only what is happening helpful for building one another up according to their needs. So what does it mean to say an encouraging word that goes back to believing the best? As you're talking to someone, say to them, wow, I really noticed this about you. Compliment. A strength compliment, something that you see in them. Encouragement could also be ask, you know, connecting them to their faith. Anything that will leave them with the sense that I'm encouraged here. The second thing is help them with their goals, whatever goals they have in the conversation. You could say, how do I. How can I support you? You can actually go down the six conversations and say, like, if you and I were out and you talked about wanting to write a book, I might ask a social question like, Jessica, who normally helps you with that? that's a social question. I might ask a physical question like, hey, that's a lot. Do you have a hard time sitting all day long? Do you wear compression socks? Whatever. I could ask a cognitive question. Go down the list. Yes, I've got them on right now. and so I want to think about supporting you. Always be thinking, if I'm encouraging them, am I able to support them? And that comes out of Hebrews about spurring one another on towards love and good deeds. The last one, though, is marveling. Now, this is going to be a game changer for families, because what that means is you're looking for divine activity. As someone's talking, you're noticing things like, okay, well, wait, where did God show up there? Or is there something to be grateful for? Did I notice his protection? Did I notice any supernatural activity? Now, that research is about awe. Ah, meaning it was a loneliness Intervention for, older people who were presenting with depression and anxiety. They paired two people together that didn't know each other, and they sent them on what's called an awe walk, a w e to go into nature and marvel together. When you are marveling with someone, you come back less anxious, less depressed, and more connected. We know that's true. If you take your daughter out and you're looking at the Grand Canyon or you're looking at the night sky together and you see a falling star and you start to marvel, you're going to feel that interpersonal connection. So marveling is such a challenge. But it's a beautiful way to live in a family where you say things like, gosh, that really sounds like something we can thank God for, or, oh, my goodness, that doesn't seem like a coincidence. Can you believe that God did that? Noticing what's called divine activity, which is also a deeply theological concept. Think about the Psalms. He formed the hearts of all and considers everything they do. And we know that Jesus has the power to bring everything under his control, so why wouldn't we give him credit for things that are happening in our day? So it's a way to kind of think about Jesus in the context of your family conversation. So. And that is, you know, know straight out of being thankful in all circumstances, you can think about that. So encouragement, helping people with their goals and, marveling. And the other thing, if you're a parent, I learned from a coach, a parenting coach, that when you're helping people with their goals, if you're controlling like I am, and like you said you were, instead of solving your child's problems, you simply say, this sounds really hard. How do you think, Think you're going to handle this? Or what are your resources that you have? And then what you say to your child is, where do you need my help? Why do you do that? You're supporting them, but you're empowering them to be the one that starts to solve their own problems. So now I say this to my colleagues. That sounds really hard. What are you going to do about it? What's your next step? Not, oh, I can help you, but what do you think? How do you think you're going to handle that is a very empowering question.
Dr. Jessica Peck I love everything that you're saying. And I'm thinking about a recent conversation I had with my son, and he had faced something really, really hard. He had something unfair happen to him and came home and talked about it. And, you know, at the Mama Bear is real, right? Isn't it. Yeah. I mean, you could easily. I mean, I could have easily gone down a path of how dare they. I'm calling their mother. No one's m gonna treat my child like that, you know, that's not gonna happen. Or what did you do in this? You know, I mean, you could just go of unhealthy directions and you know, I am really. What I did was marveling. And I didn't have the word for that until I read about your work, Heather. But honestly, I looked at that right then, and the first thing that I thought of was, the Lord goes before you. Do you see how the circumstances were orchestrated and you were protected in this way and this way and this way, and God equipped and prayed your heart. Do you remember that conversation that we just had last week about this? Do you you see how even though this was going to happen and the Lord, for whatever reason, saw fit not to stop it from happening, but he was so gracious to prepare you for this moment, and you can step up in this m moment. Oh, I'm getting goosebumps right now. No,
Dr. Heather Holleman I love that.
Dr. Jessica Peck But that's such a difference. But it sounds so simple. It sounds so simple. But yet we go to what you call this default conversation style, because, yeah, we all think, I want to talk about that. But Heather, I think you and I can both say this did not. If you're listening to us talk and think, oh, why can't I talk like that? It did not come overnight. Like, it takes intention and practice and I still get it wrong.
Dr. Heather Holleman Yes, I love that you were able to marvel. Our family's favorite motto is every rejection is God's protection. Because we like to see how God sovereignly cared for us, even if it was a really hard situation. So I love that. And you're right, these things can immediately, Even though it takes a while, you can see immediate improvement if you just ask a few questions that people enjoy. Like, what went well today? What did you want to celebrate about your day? And you'll see that as you ask loving, curious questions with a really good follow up. Like, I like asking if I ask my students, hey, what are you celebrating? Do you have any good news? My next question is, who's the first person you wanted to share that with? Because you learn about their best friends and then you can just go on and on. But again, you never get lost. Lost. And my husband's an introvert who is very shy. He doesn't think well on his feet by his own admission. And he's really Proof of concept for this book, he has completely transformed his conversational style. And now he has more friends than I do. My girls are often wanting to talk to him instead of me. They're like, dad understands my emotions. He asks better questions. I'm like, okay, call your dad. Ouch. So the book is great, especially if you feel like you just want to learn. Yes.
Dr. Jessica Peck But you've given us such practical ways to do that. You know, as a nurse, I always use tell me about, like, oh, tell me about, tell me about that. Because, you know, I think that younger generations, kids, they want that curious conversation. They want somebody who's going to listen with their face, who's going to be invested in them, who's going to believe the best about them. And, and do you know what you had said before? And, and and where is it? Being curious, believing the best, expressing concern and sharing their lives. But so often I think, get, it's so hard because we just go in to give unsolicited advice. Like as soon as they say something, oh, you shouldn't do that, or what are you, what are you doing? Where are you going to school? Why aren't you dating anybody? And we just kind of start this inquisition. It's really hard to pull back and to be curious. And what I hear from a lot of parents, Heather, is that, you know, when we're talking about this kind of conversation style, especially from dads, let's, since you brought your husband into the picture, let's talk about that. They'll say that, oh, that sounds too soft. Like you gotta tell them what's right and what's wrong. And this is just coddling their emot. Emotions. And you know, they've got to be a little tougher than that. What, how would you push back on that concern?
Well, there is a time for, you know, parenting and giving wisdom
Dr. Heather Holleman Well, there is a time for, you know, parenting and giving wisdom. But for example, with expressing concern, if you're a dad and you say to your child, okay, tell me what the biggest, thing stressing you out this week is. And your child says, oh, I'm really stressed out because I have my project due on Friday. And then as the dad, you're like, well, you had three months to work on it. This is your fault. You procrastinated. You know, why didn't you listen to me?
Dr. Jessica Peck So relatable.
Dr. Heather Holleman I, again, again, what you say is that really sounds, you know, stressful. What, what's your plan moving forward? How, how can mom and I support you? It's a way of, it's a way of empowering Your kids and. And giving them a sense that. I mean, it depends how old they are, but if it's like a nine year old, you could say to them, hey, do you need mom and dad to help you with time management this week? You know, instead of, you are a failure. You should have done this last week. Week, you know, your mom and I, whatever. So it's a way. It's just a different way of. Of thinking through, like, Philippians, too, like, honoring them. You know, they have dignity, you know, and thinking about, okay, what kind of family culture do we want to have here? But there is a time to talk about, you know, virtues and rules and. And house rules. All that is normal part of family life. But again, you could talk about it in terms of. Of what the family values. You could say, you know, we value you not procrastinating because it creates a lot of stress on the family. You can have a very loving conversation where you stay warmly connected and you're still showing what the family rules are, is different from, you know, shaming or insulting that kind of language. But it is hard. I raised one procrastinator and one, who gets her assignments done, like, a year in advance, and you have four. Right? I'm sure they're all different. Oh,
Dr. Jessica Peck they're all so different. But, you know, what I've learned is that validating their emotions, experience in the moment, that is a connection that I can have with them, a warm connection. They feel seen. They feel like, okay, I know that mom sees that I'm anxious, and. And when they come home with the, you know, with a bad grade and, you know that they didn't study, instead of leading with lecturing and saying, well, you should have. You should have known better, of course this happened. Why are you surprised? I can say, you know what? It never feels good to do poorly on an exam. That's a terrible feeling. I'm so sorry you're experiencing that. Let's talk about the decisions. Tell me about the. How did you decide? I'm gonna steal that from you. Yeah,
Dr. Heather Holleman right there
Dr. Jessica Peck shamelessly. How did you decide how to prepare for this? And how can we change those decisions to set you up for success? And when parents, you know, push back on that to me and say, like, oh, no, we just need to tell them what to do. And I say, well, if you have a kid who's struggling with something and you're leading with lecturing, how's that working for you? Like, are they getting better? Because most of the time they don't. They Say, I've told you this a thousand times. Maybe a different strategy would be helpful.
God’s Questions Shape Honest Conversation And The Show Concludes
And, Heather, I could talk to you about this for a long time, but I want to shift gears for just a second before we leave our time together, because one of the things that I wanted to ask you about, you've been so good at just integrating God's word. One of my favorite verses that you said was from Ephesians 4 about let no unwholesome talk. You've just integrated God's word into this. Your final chapter in this book explores God's questions in Genesis. And so I want to take it all the way back to the very beginning and take it back to those questions. And how does our conversation with God shape the way that we approach conversations with other people?
Dr. Heather Holleman Oh, man, we could go forever. This could be a whole other podcast. I love if you look at the kinds of questions God asks us. It's so beautiful. Think about the qu. Go reread Genesis. It's like, where are you? Like, Jessica, where are you today? Like, God's like, where are you? And
Dr. Jessica Peck he knew
Dr. Heather Holleman what I love. Yeah, what I love is. Is, who told you you were naked? What I love about that is, who are you authorizing to tell you about yourself? Like, who told you? And then the last question is, what have you done? that's important, because this idea of why we're believers, why we follow Christ, has a lot to do with sin. Like, we need a savior. What have you done? Is such a question of, yeah, I've fallen short. I need. I need Jesus to cover my sin. I need to pray and ask him to forgive my sin and come and live in my heart. And the thing that's so good about those three questions is I think it's a question. The questions that everyone needs to ask, where I. Where am I in relation to God? Who am I authorizing to tell me what my identity is, and then do I need the Lord? is the wage of sin, death? Like, what is this idea of sin? So I love that. And remember, Satan had a question, too. He's the master of lying and inversion. And his question to Eve was, did God really say so? There are, forces against us that are calling into question who God is. And you have to ask yourself, like, what are the questions swirling in my head right now that are calling into question what I know to be true about God?
Dr. Jessica Peck I hate that we have to leave it there. Radio is so rude. Our time together is finished. But if you want the answer to that question, get a copy of this book. The Six Conversations Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. Heather Holleman. Hate to leave it there, but pick it up here. As you do. I pray as always. Do the Lord bless you and keep you. Make his face shine upon you. I'll see you next time. We'd like to thank our sponsors, including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and has seen over 100,000 commitments to Christ. Will you join PreBorn in continuing this good work? supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR
Jeff Chamblee the views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Dr. Heather Holleman joins Jessica to discuss six conversations that can help families connect in an age of isolation and incivility.
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