: Welcome to Real Truth for Today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve, senior pastor of First Baptist Church in Texarkana, Texas. Now, here's Pastor Jeff.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Good morning and welcome to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. Hope you're having a great morning. Wanted to read to you from Ephesians, chapter six. It says it beginning in verse one. Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father and mother, which is the first commandment, with a promise so that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth. Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. Today we want to talk about the father wound. What happens to a child when dad wounds them and wounds them over their childhood? Not just yells at them one time because they spilled the milk, but a pattern that really develops a wound. it's a big issue, and it affects all of us. Everybody can relate to one degree or another of something that wounded them from their father. Maybe their father was absent, or maybe their father was abusive or some aspect of their father that really hurt them and maybe hinders them as they get older. Now, to help me with this important discussion is my friend, Dr. Mike Courtney. Mike is the founder of branches, founded in 2007. Is that right, Mike?
Dr. Mike Courtney: That's right. Yeah. Coming up on 20th year.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: All right. And, he's the father of two boys, and his wife, Doris, has been just, with him through thick and thin. And there were some thin, thin times in there, Mike.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Doris says we've been married, 50 long and wonderful years. Some of them been wonderful, most of them just been long.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: He's also the teaching pastor at family teaching pastor at Family Worship Center. And, Mike, the subject of the father wound. So as I was mentioning to you right before we started, your sister, Shonda Pierce, the comedian, and she's, part of this movie that just came out earlier this year called He Calls Me Daughter.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Right.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: The story of four women. I believe it's four women that talk about the pain that they went through with their. With absentee dad, abusive dad, whatever the case may be. And so that triggered something in me to say that would be a good program for us to do and in my. You being the counselor extraordinaire and dealing with. With people's hurts and uncovering, those hurts. So let's, let's talk about the definitions. What. How would you define a father wound?
Dr. Mike Courtney: Well, you know, you mentioned, Shonda's project. it was collective project, but her part in that. I think it said two things to us about. Excuse me, about the father moon. One is that it's not just men that, that women are as prone. Perhaps it comes out in different ways. It's experienced in different ways, but it's a wound from both. From both for both sons and daughters. The second thing is that it is. It's trauma that is created by something that a father does to us that he shouldn't do. That's inappropriate anger, that kind of thing. But it's also just as real and just as traumatic when a father simply doesn't provide what's supposed to be provided in both those cases. So if you imagine a continuum from abuse to abandonment, anywhere along that continuum, the father wound is created. It's that sense of longing for a connection or a relationship that I think God created us for that goes unfulfilled and many times in. Tries to find itself someplace else in life.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so as somebody speaking of your background, you. You would be, superhuman to not have a father wound, given the father you had.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yes. And you know, and I also say I've. I probably mentioned this to you before, Jeff, but I have a friend who wrote a book. The title is they Preached it Straight, but I heard it crooked sometimes. This is. Sometimes our fathers did everything right. And it's not what the father did. It's the way we. We received it or failed to receive it. In my case, that it was true. My father was, bipolar. And so it created both of those things. It created an abusiveness. When he was in his manic phase, he would very often be. Be abusive in, you know, verbally or sometimes even physically. When he would go into the depressive phase, he was absent, he would be abandoned us. And so, yeah, I think, I think my sister and I both experienced father wounds from that. That experience with my father. And I don't need to defend him, but in his defense, he had a father wound from his father and his father before him. So we have lived for generations now handing down father wounds.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. okay, so if I don't know a whole lot about your dad, I know, yes, he. He's gone now. Right. He passed away. Mike, do you think your dad was a genuine believer in Jesus?
Dr. Mike Courtney: I do, I do. And, and, you know, I had the privilege in his last days of sitting by his bedside for a long time and even asking him that question. Are you sure everything is all right? I. Doris asked a great question. When we deal with couples that are going through some type of. Some type of trauma that's difficult to, to correlate with a walk of faith, she will say, do you think this is sickness or sin? And then she always gives the answer. The answer is yes, it's both of those. And so for my father, there was certainly, there were certainly times when the, the spirit of God was not evident in him and his behavior was anything but Christian. Much, of that, I believe, was the sickness part rather than the sin part. And so I, I do believe he was a believer, but he struggled with great medical, mental stress and, and it was evident in the way that he dealt with that bipolar.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Now, he was in the ministry from the time he was relatively young. Before you guys were born.
Dr. Mike Courtney: no, he, he entered the ministry. I was sixth, grade when he entered the ministry. He was always a minister. He had a great voice, great, singing voice. And so as long as I can remember, he would lead the worship in our churches. Always tiny little churches. I didn't know that it was legal for more than 50 people to gather together on Sunday. I thought it was against the law for that. My dad would lead the music in those churches. And then, and I think probably struggled with a call to ministry for many of those years. And then, and when I was about middle school age, he entered the pastoral ministry and pastored, tiny little churches until I, until I married my father, married my wife and I. And, came to me on the day of our wedding and he said, my bags are packed and I'm leaving your mother when the ceremony is over. And that was his kind of modus operandi. That's the way he would operate. But that, that started a long period of, of not being in ministry.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. when you think about how your parents got together. Because it was obviously extremely dysfunctional.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yes.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: one of the things Shonda brings up, just even in the trailer, is that she was resentful of your mom because she put up with all that.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Right.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: His girlfriends and all that stuff.
: So.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So tell me about that relationship.
Dr. Mike Courtney: My, my. Of course that was before my time. But. But my I might put it in context. I'm. I am the oldest. I was the oldest of four children, the only boy and then three sisters under me, all of us about three years apart. Shonda was the middle girl of those three sisters. My oldest sister was killed in an automobile accident when I was 21. My youngest sister, a few, well, 18 months after that died with leukemia. And so. And that contributed to the falling apart of my parents marriage. I think there were always, always infidelity issues and betrayal trauma. But I think that final straw was just the collapse of being able to handle the loss of two children. as I understand the story, my mother, was the baby of the family. I always say about the baby of the family, their approach to life is, here I am, take care of me. And my mother was a baby of the family, so she needed to be rescued. Grew up in a, In a farm family, relatively, poor. My father was the oldest, child and his. His turn to faith created a rift between his parents and. And him. He This probably way more detail than your listeners interest in, but they. He was a Kentucky farm family that grew tobacco. And my father came to Christ and said I can't grow tobacco anymore. And that caused this great divide. So he was kind of kicked out of the family. So he was looking for a project and my mother was a project wanting to be rescued. And I think that's part of what brought them together. Now the interesting thing is that that project grew old as. As the years went on. Her need to continually be rescued, his feeling burdened with that. And all these are perceptions. I don't know that they were really real. But his burden with that caused him to become resentful of her. and that in turn with his own mental health issues, did turn to. To acting out in the form of. Of external relationships. And he had several, extramarital affairs, some of which we were. Both Shonda and I were. Would step in and intervene and try to stop. And so that was. The whole family was a, ah, term that we don't use a lot in clinical counseling. Was crazy. The whole family was crazy.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, you know, I think about that. Is your mom still alive?
Dr. Mike Courtney: No, she passed away about 10 years ago. Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. so you know, when Shonda talks about being frustrated as a daughter, that mom.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yes.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Allowing. So your mom obviously knew this was happening. You guys knew it was happening. and it wasn't like the elephant in the living room. Because you guys did talk about it, evidently.
Dr. Mike Courtney: well, only in the middle of the crisis, when the crisis was going on, we would talk about it as soon as we got through. The CR Says nobody ever mentioned it again. And we never went back and did any kind of healing for that until. Until late in our life. Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: As far as your dad with. With other women, I'm assuming that when he's. When he's on, he's very charming.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yes. He was gifted. I always say he could preach like a bishop and sing like Pavarotti. He was gifted. Fun, funny. yes, when he. When he was on, he was really on. But when he would begin to slip into the despair he would become, it began with anger and rage and. And mean spirit and cruelty, and then finally his suicidal ideations.
: Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: And this is before any kind of medicine for any of that stuff.
Dr. Mike Courtney: It was before good medicine. they. They treated him again. This is kind of looking back and trying to do some. So they treat him with. With lithium, and, with vitamin B, which, are both things kind of almost over the counter things that are a little bit helpful. But, yeah, there wasn't anything good. And part of the problem with bipolar, even today, is that when you are down, you don't. You're so hopeless that you don't feel like taking the medication. It doesn't do any good when you're up. You don't need the medication. And so it's difficult with bipolar. It's difficult to get them to stay on their medication.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So we're getting up against a break. But if you were to counsel your dad when he was in the thick of all this with kids and all, what would you say to him?
Dr. Mike Courtney: Well, I would say, say, first of all, recognize that your value and worth is something that's inside you and don't be looking other places for that. And then. And then, secondly, based on that value and worth, find a good treatment plan and stay with it even when you don't feel like it. Just stay with that. Recognizing that on the other side of this, there's a. There's the life you've been looking for.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, we're talking to Dr. Mike Courtney. And Mike, is the founder of. Of Branches, now in its 20th year. And, we're talking about the father wound here on Real Truth for today. I'm your host, Pastor Jeff Schrieve, and we are up against a break, but we'll be back with more. Don't go away.
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: This is Real Truth for Today. Podcasts of the program are available on the podcast [email protected] now back to Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to Real Truth for Today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to my friend, Dr. Mike Courtney. Not only is Mike a, teaching pastor at the family worship center and the founder of branches that has helped untold, multitudes of people through problems and difficulties and addictions and all sorts of things, but he is also the author of one of my favorite books, Failure and How I Achieved It. it's got to be the best title ever. but he shares his story. I encourage you to, get a copy of that book. It will bless you. It will fill you with hope no matter what's going on in your life. As you read about Mike's life. And Mike, you don't pull any punches about your life just totally melting down. And you, are the one to blame for it.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Absolutely. Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: But now as we talk about the father wound, the father wound did, I mean, it had an effect on your decision.
Dr. Mike Courtney: It contributed. I always say as I, as I talk about my father's story especially, I always say these are reasons, they're not excuses that it contributed. It was kind of part of the hand that I was dealt. But there are a lot of people who were dealt similar hands and did not make the choices that I made. So, yeah, we are, we're all responsible for our own actions. And the beginning of healing, I think, is to recognize that, to choose that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: I, I heard a sermon one time, Mike, by Chuck Swindoll. And he was talking about David and how David, great man of God, a man after God's own heart, great king, wasn't a good dad Right. And one of the, One of the things Swindell points out was David had so many wives and so many children that there wasn't enough of him to go around.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Oh, yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: And so, so you had kids like Absalom, who ends up trying to kill him.
: Right.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amnon, who should have been disciplined and wasn't and ends up raping the daughter Tamar. And so it's just. Just turmoil in his family. And, surprisingly, he's the guy that faces off with Goliath, but when it comes to problems in his own family, he seems to just kind of hide under the bed. Yeah.
Dr. Mike Courtney: And that. Interesting. And he's also the guy that God says he's a man after my own heart. So you can have all of that, all of that going on. I, I think some of that has to do with our, gender differences, that men tend to be, at least feel like they need to be more stoic, they need to be less expressive, less verbal. And so it's harder for men to express those needs and kind of things. But I think also it has something to do with, with. With David's father and, and his father before him. And we go back and look at the generations, and especially in our world today, we have, lived with generations now of fatherless fathers, so that we, we have not learned very well how to handle emotional difficulties and those kinds of things. I think all of that plays into it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so, Mike, as you think about your own life, you think about the father wound. And Shonda shares in that movie, he, calls me daughter about the pains that she had and the, the ramifications of that. what would you say were the ramifications of your father wound? How would you describe the father wound specifically for you?
Dr. Mike Courtney: Right.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: And how did that play out in your life?
Dr. Mike Courtney: I have, you know, Jeff, I have a theory that I have proposed for 20 years now. And I, I have said, I'm sure somebody smarter than me came up with this. It's too good to have come out of my bee little brain. And so someday, maybe one of your listeners will be able to tell me where this came from. But, but my idea is that God created fathers and mothers with very specific responsibilities. And to our, to our fathers, he gave the responsibility of identity. He said to Adam, name the animals. Your. Your job is to give the name to things. And so our fathers give us identity. We, for the most part, a little bit different sometimes. For the most part, we keep our father's last name. We say in the south, things like Things like, boy, you're a chip off the old block or you're just like your old man. Our identity comes from our father. And identity is about value and worth. The Courtney's always work hard. The Shreves always are at the top of their class. It's about value and worth. to the mothers, he gave the responsibility of intimacy. And intimacy is about, is, is about nurturing, it's about being safe, knowing that, that there is somebody that loves you. So I always use the illustration. I, I played basketball in high school and college and never committed one foul in eight years of varsity basketball, according to my mother. Now I found out lots of games, but my mother knew the rep was wrong and I was right. Never committed a foul. And to have that someone who loves us, and makes us feel safe, those are responsibilities. So when, when one or both of those are not present, the wound is that I, I don't have that sense of identity. I don't have value and worth. When my father never said to me, you're a good man, I love you, I'm, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna be something. My father said to me one time in a. And I'm sure in desperation, you know, I was seventh grade and had skipped school for the fourth time that month. And you know, my father said, you're a bum. You're always gonna be a bum. And I know he said good things to me, but I can't remember those. I remember that you're a bum. And so that, that lack of identity. Now the interesting thing is that's what causes us to do well. I mean, I'm gonna prove him wrong. So I became a very successful pastor and, and, and was fun and funny and a good preacher and reached a lot of people and very that dry. But inside we're still those words. You're a bum, you're always going to be a bum. And so I was constantly looking for someone, some, something to say that's not true. You have value, you have work. But when, when the need is on the inside, there's nothing on the outside that's going to meet that need. And so I, much like my father, I went through a series of, extramarital affairs. Lost my ministry, nearly lost my family. God did a great work. God did a great healing. But that was the father wound, that side of that. And I think, I think in many ways kind of shonda experienced that same thing of not having identity and not having worth. And if I can add, because we've talked about It. A couple times, both Shawn and I were surprised at our resentment towards our mother. But when. When you're supposed to get from your mother this sense of safety, the world's a safe place, somebody loves you enough, to keep you safe. And what she was trying to do out of desperation, hold the family together at all cost and allow these affairs to go on, then we didn't get that sense of safety. The person who was supposed to keep us safe did not keep us safe. And so there was resentment for that. So the. So the mother wound, if there is such a thing, and I believe there is. The mother wound is about not being made to feel safe, not being loved enough for someone to protect you. And both of those have devastating consequences as we grow older.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Mike, do you think that, even people that grow up in a. In a really great, solid Christian family, loving mom and dad, they have a good marriage, do they still experience, to a certain extent, a, ah, father wound and a mother wound?
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yes. my wife would just. Just make you sick when you hear her story. Just makes you sick. See this. That her father was a saint.
Jeff Chamblee: He.
Dr. Mike Courtney: He really was the best man I've ever met in my life. Godly man. He was 96 when he died. and her and her mother are just godly. Godly people. But they were in a. They were in a. A farm setting. very strict, rigid, legalistic, probably kind of trying to do the right thing, but grew up in a great home, great family. And yet, as I talked to Dora, she experienced a lot of father wounds. Again, not from the. Not on the abuse side, but on the absence side of not being able to say I love you, and her not being able to hear that. So that when Doris and I married, I would say to her, I love you, and she'd say, me too. That's. You know, she. She couldn't verbalize. Cause she had a father wound that she had not heard that. Didn't know she deserved to hear that, didn't know how to say it back. Yes, yes. Even in the best of homes, we can. We can walk away with these. These wounds.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Was, Was your dad, demonstrative toward you as a kid or not?
Dr. Mike Courtney: He. He was, He wasn't. He wasn't affectionate, but he was demonstrative. And very often it came across, Jeff, as part of the pastor shtick that he was. When we were in the church service, he would. He would brag on us from the pulpit, or he would put his arms around us while he's Standing and talking to church people. And so it very much came across as. This is a part of his, Persona as pastor. And it's not a, it's not a genuine thing.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. So here's the thing that I would think would have really been hard for you and Shonda to not absorb, and that is that Christianity is just a show. It's not real.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Well, I, I would deny that we ever felt that. Well, I shouldn't say we. Let me, I'll, leave Shonda out of this. You have to speak for herself. I would deny that I ever felt that, but I certainly demonstrated that. I, I, I certainly lived it out, publicly far better than I did privately. And so probably some of, some of that was just learned behavior, that it's more important, it's more important what people see about you than what's really going on in your heart.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. you know, I, I've preached a lot of sermons about, you know, your kids aren't expecting you to be perfect, but they do expect you to be genuine.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: And when they don't, when they don't see the sincerity or the genuineness or like, this is all just. You talk a big game, but we don't live this out. That, that disconnect is really hard for a child to put together.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Absolutely. And I think I, I think it is as important. It's important for your children to, to see the affectionate you and the, and the affirming you and wrapping your arms around it. It's as important for you to be, you know, obviously age appropriate, but for you to be willing to share some of your struggles and some of your weaknesses. You know, Bud, I know you're having a hard time in school. I didn't like school. I didn't have many friends. I, you know, sometimes I remember I cheated on algebra. I don't know what you tell them, but I think for them to hear, to hear your struggles. You know, if. I think everybody could write a book, failure and How I Achieved it, and, and it might be a good idea. It might be a good thing.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So, Mike, what, because your background is so heavy in counseling, so if Mike Courtney today could talk to his mother when she was about 35, 40 years old, what would you have told her?
Dr. Mike Courtney: You know, I think a, part of what we just said, I think it's, it's important for you to tell the truth, to speak the truth, even when things are not well. You don't have to set your children down and tell them that their Father's having an affair. That's. That's probably the wrong thing to do, but set them down and say, our marriage is not good. We're going to. We're going to pray together for dad. You know, there are things that are happening, first of all, just to tell the truth. I think that's vitally important. And then secondly, to, As much as I would have said to my father, to find your. Your value and your worth in you, which really is only your relationship with Christ, that has to be that. That's. That's the source to all this. Find your relationship in you and not in those other places. My mother, I think, probably would have been guilty of what I would call emotional incest. There was never anything obviously physical that took place, but her. Her children took the place of her husband.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.
Dr. Mike Courtney: In terms of confidentiality and those kinds of things. So, yeah, so speak the truth. Find your value in your relationship with Christ and. And. And allow your children to develop their own lives apart from the trauma of the family. No.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. So, Mike, your dad tells you that of all times and places at your wedding. Hey, I'm, Did he do that on purpose to hurt you or to rain on your parade? Or was it.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah, I think that's probably as good a phrase as any, to rain on the parade. Even in the midst of his despair, life would be about him. he was the center of his universe. And. And so it was a way of saying, in all that's going on, on your day, this is still about me. I want you to be thinking about me. And interestingly enough, my response to that, Jeff, was to do the very thing that I wish someone had told my parents not to do, was to tell the truth. My response was, I should have sat down with my bride to be and say, this is what's going to happen. I didn't tell her. Kept a secret, didn't tell the family. And it was only at our honeymoon that I told, my wife what had happened. And because she is who she is, she said, we need to pack up and go back home and be with your mother. But, yeah, I think that was about him being the center of. At least in our little circle, the center of attention there.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: How long did it take you, Mike, to be able to forgive him for all those things that he did?
Dr. Mike Courtney: Well, again, it's interesting that I. At least what I was aware of, my. My m. Anger and frustration was more with my mother than it was with my father. I. I think, again, and this is this is a father. I think this is unique to father sons. Maybe mothers and daughters feel the same kind of thing. I think there's such a. A hunger for his approval, a hunger for that relationship that it was difficult for me to even verbalize my anger and frustration with him. For, for years and years and years I could talk about his sickness and. And at the same time voice my frustration about my mother's response to it. So probably as my own sin really began to come out and I really began to be aware of the fact that this is not just poor choices, but this is a generational curse that I carry. So I was in my early 40s when all of that took place. It was then that I was kind of forced to confront where all this came from. Have a, time of anger about that and then, and then recognize it. If there was any hope of me being forgiven, I had to forgive him. And so I did. I. I forgave my father. Didn't excuse him, didn't excuse me behavior, and I didn't enter back into it right away. We, we had some pretty strong boundaries in the way we would relate to him, but I, but I did forgive him m. And kind of found my own healing in that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, you're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to Dr. Mike Courtney. We're talking about the father wound. It's something that we can all relate to. We'll be right back.
: If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff, email pastor jeffromhishheart.org now back to Real Truth for today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to Dr. Mike Courtney. Mike is the, founder of Branches. And Mike Branches Counseling center has how many different outlets for people?
Dr. Mike Courtney: We have five offices all in all in middle Tennessee. But, we also now, thanks to Covid, we do a lot of telehealth. We do intensives where people will come in literally from around the country. So we see, we see about 18,000 people a year. It branches. Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Wow, that's a lot of folks. And that's over a 20 year period of time now. It grew, obviously.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: when you started branches in 2007, you, you were freshly receiving healing from your own, life and then sharing that with other people. I know you like to say, well, I was meeting with some drunks in a small group and it kind of grew from there. But, you know Mike, when I think about just from your book, how many People, you're not going to know till heaven. How many people were really impacted by God's grace and given hope because of how they saw the Lord work in your life? if any marriage was dead and anybody's ministry was gone, it was yours.
Dr. Mike Courtney: absolutely. And, you know, some great things have happened. Branches is a wonderful story, and so thankful. And. And my wife and I have a wonderful relationship. Our. Our boys, our grandson, all of that. But we do recognize that is entirely the grace of God. It's. It's the work of God. And if there was some way that I could have been smart enough to figure this out, I wouldn't have got in this mess in the first place. So it. It is something that God did. And. And I think that, as we said earlier, I think people are as moved by the struggle as they are by the healing of being honest and being willing to say, man, I really, really messed this thing up. And God. God can take that and turn it around for you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Mike, when you're growing up in that kind of environment, that's very scary and unsettling, as your dad would just have these mood swings. Does that. Does that bond you to your siblings in a. In a special way?
Dr. Mike Courtney: I think so. I think there was kind of that. That Stockholm syndrome that we were. We were surviving in the foxhole together. I. It's interesting. Shonda and I are. She. She will, probably sue us if I say this out loud, but we are very similar. our personality is similar. We. We. We laugh at all the inappropriate things in the same way. We're very similar. And my two sisters who have gone on to heaven, they were both very, very similar. Be interesting to see how, as adults, they would have handled the trauma that we went through. but for Shonda and I, yes. Even. Even today, while we have our. Certainly our differences and lots of things, even today, there is this closeness. My wife is always surprised. We can. We can be yelling and screaming at each other about something and turn right around, be hugging each other. And so, yes, I think there was a real closeness because we understand what we survived.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so, it sounds like you and Shonda were probably more like your dad and your other two sisters, more like your mom.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Now, Shonda would really sue us if she heard us say that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.
Dr. Mike Courtney: But, yes, I think that's true. I think. I think our mother was. She was very funny, and Shonda got her sense of humor from her mother. But in terms of a personality of kind, of. I hope I say this humbly, but in public charisma. Yes, that kind of thing. Very much like our dad, but also very much like him in terms of. Of, internalizing, faults and errors and not allowing them. Trying to keep them hidden, not allowing them to be seen. So, yeah, I think that's probably true.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, Mike, when you counsel somebody that's got a problem with this, that or the other, whether it's affection or anger or whatever, how much of the time does it go back to a father wound?
Dr. Mike Courtney: You know, hard. I have to be very careful not to transfer my own issues into other people's lives. But it's hard to deal with, almost any kind of issue in someone's life without it being traced back to some type of lacking parentally. But especially the father wound. I just think there's something unique about that. And God created us. it's interesting that he. That scripture instructs us to call him Father. I. I mean, why is that? Why don't we call him Mother? I think there's something about that relationship that. That. That God wanted that nearly always. Nearly always? Yeah. Whether it's depression or addiction or. Or failures in relationships, if we trace it back and talk about there is some measure of father wound, something that's missing that I wish I had gotten from my father, that. That comes to bear.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: You know, what surprises me, Mike, is that this is a big issue. The Bible doesn't really talk a lot about that. you know, and we had mentioned David. David's a great man in scripture. Not a great dad. Samuel, one of the greatest men in the Old Testament. And it doesn't appear that he was a great dad.
Dr. Mike Courtney: His sons. Right.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: what do you make of that? That, maybe there's not the emphasis in scripture on that. And then you have great men of God who. Maybe they're absent. Maybe Samuel has gone a lot. I don't know. how do you. How do you work through that?
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah. You know, if you. I guess if you go back and read some of the. The Old Testament stories of Samuel visiting Saul, Samuel visiting David, and think of how long it took to travel to those places. Yeah, he probably was absent a lot. You know, I. I think there's two things I'll begin almost every counseling session by saying, I don't know. You know, we're. We're trying to work this out. Let God lead us to it. I don't know for sure, but I do think that there is this assumption in scripture. It seems like perhaps you and I have had this conversation before, Jeff. There's this assumption in scripture that the father God relationship would be so prevalent that it would. That it would supersede the failures of earthly fathers. And if we could really grasp that. And, I. My. My own son taught me this lesson. He was talking about the, the story of the rich young ruler in the Gospel of Mark. And, and in response to that, when he goes away. Sorrowful, Sour, sour, sorrowful, he goes away sad. Peter says, hey, you know, we've given up everything to follow you. What do we get out of this?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.
Dr. Mike Courtney: And, and Mark says it differently from the other gospels. The other gospels, Jesus says, I tell you the truth, if you're going to follow me, you have to give up everything. Father, son, father's, mother's, brother, sisters, home, work.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right?
Dr. Mike Courtney: And then he says, if you do, you'll get it back a hundredfold. Mothers, brothers, sisters, home, work. He leaves the word father out of the second list. And, and, and I think as I look at that, that the idea was they need to find that relationship in me and in me alone. and my son said to me, he said, dad, your job was to be a placeholder until I could reach a point where I developed that relationship with God and that father. Relationship with God. So I think maybe that's. Maybe that's part of. Maybe that's why there are so many not good fathers in Scripture. Because God's saying there's only one father you can really count on, and that needs to be me. Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right. what would you say to a guy in your office that. Whose life is shambles and his family's shambles? He comes to know Christ, he gets his life right with Christ. How does he make it right with his family?
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah, that's great question. And one that I get all the time. And again, I was in my. I was in my, I guess, mid-40s by the time I really turned this around and began to move in the right direction. So I say, first of all, it is never too late. It's absolutely never too late. There are things I wish that I had been better at when my kids were 4, 5, and 6 years old. But it's never too late. So. So start now. Start being the kind of dad that even your adult children want you to be. The second thing is that you can never be too honest, that. Be open with them and transparent with them. Not just about your failures, but about your healing and about what God's doing in your life now, allowing them to see that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Mike, did your dad ever, apologize for the dad that he was,
Dr. Mike Courtney: my father kind of had a protected illness as he was dying. And, he lived in Northern Kentucky, about five hours from us. I would drive up every weekend for the last three months. I drove up every weekend to sit by his bed so that his family, by now he had another family so they could go off and do whatever they needed to do. And the last weekend that I was with him, that he could still talk, he. I was there a couple more weekends when he couldn't talk. But the last weekend and we could tell it was getting kind of close. And so I said to him, I said, dad, is there anything you, you want to say? Anything you feel like you need to say? And my father said, no, I'm good. And, and I said, you know, he's never going to get this and I can't expect him to be something that he's not. So, no, there was never an apology. But, that's okay. He didn't have to apologize. I had forgiven him. And I was determined. I was determined to be a good son at that point so that in turn I would have the privilege of being a good father to my, to my children. Yeah, so don't. That might be. The other thing is don't expect your parents to. To be something they have never been. You just. You forgive them, set good boundaries, but. But live in a healthy way.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: That's. Yeah, that's good. That's hard though.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah. Oh yeah, it is. And there are moments even still, he's been gone for 10 years. The moment still that I, you know, say, come on, dad, you could have done better than that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: But you expect to meet him in heaven?
Dr. Mike Courtney: I do. I absolutely do. I. You know, he's probably gonna be closer to the throne than I am, so. Yes, I expect to meet him.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. did he ever apologize to your mom?
Dr. Mike Courtney: No, No, I don't think so. But he did. My. My mother died about a year before he did. And. And when I, I called him to tell him that she had died and they had, They had been divorced for 30 years by that time. But, he really spoke highly of her. He said she was a. She was a very. To me. Only to me didn't come to the funeral or. Which I didn't expect him to, but. But she was a very good woman and he spoke high of her. So I think in his way, he. He tried to, He tried to express some sense of gratitude for her.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Mike, what do you say to the person we Just have a couple minutes left. But what do you say to the person that they know they have to forgive? They had a parent, you know, the. The physical abuse, sexual abuse, I think is. Even then, takes it a step further. Further.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Absolutely.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: How do you forgive that? So what do you say to that person that says, I just don't see how I can forgive them for what they did to me?
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yes. I think my wife has a wonderful phrase she uses with. With women who have gone through betrayal, trauma. She'll say, you have to forgive, but not today. And so I think, first of all, it's okay to be angry. In fact, it's probably important to have a period of time where you can be angry. You can verbalize that, you can express that. Write a letter to your dad. Don't mail it. That just creates another level of problem. But write a letter, express everything. It's okay to be angry. Then the time comes where I think we are instructed in scripture to forgive. So there is a legal, part of forgiveness that simply says, I forgive you. And to me, the definition of that is, I release you from the responsibility of ever making this right to me. You don't. You don't have to make my life good. You don't have to change anything. I release you from that. I forgive you. The next part is the emotional part that follows. And sometimes, sometimes it takes years, sometimes it probably never happens while that person is still alive. And. And that's about keeping ourselves safe and knowing what we need. That's okay. I just have to do, I think what God instructs me to do is that legal part. I forgive you. You don't have to make this up to me. You don't owe me anything. I, completely absolve you of any debt, and now we're okay. And then allow God to work on the emotional part, on the comfortable part. this little bit personal hope, not too personal. My sister. I think my sister did the first part, and it was never able to do the second part. But she experienced different things for my father than I did, and that's okay. And we've talked about that a lot. She doesn't have to feel warm and fuzzy about him. She knows that she forgave him, and that's enough.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So I, would think that the respect part would be so hard. It's like, I forgive you, but I have zero respect for you.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah, I had. I tried to learn to respect the. The office.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
Dr. Mike Courtney: This is my father. I respect. I respect that word, Father. And so I will give. I will give the office the dignity and the honor that it deserves. The person, you know, much as we would do, in a. In a political setting, you know, we might agree or disagree with a. We have lost that. My. My grandmother. My grandmother was a yellow dog Democrat. But you did not say anything negative about, any Republican president. That's her president.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.
Dr. Mike Courtney: We've lost that. It's a shame. We have, but I think we need to at least regain that with our fathers, that. I respect the office. The person is lacking, but I can respect the office.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Very good. Well, Mike, this has been a wonderful time. I always appreciate getting to talk to you.
Dr. Mike Courtney: You're one of my.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: My favorite guys. And, so God bless you, brother.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Thank you, Jeff. Thank for the privilege. Always good to see you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Thank you. Well, go out today, Shine for Christ and share what great things the Lord has done for you. And guess what? God will use you as his witness. God bless you.
: Welcome to Real Truth for Today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve, senior pastor of First Baptist Church in Texarkana, Texas. Now, here's Pastor Jeff.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Good morning and welcome to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. Hope you're having a great morning. Wanted to read to you from Ephesians, chapter six. It says it beginning in verse one. Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father and mother, which is the first commandment, with a promise so that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth. Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. Today we want to talk about the father wound. What happens to a child when dad wounds them and wounds them over their childhood? Not just yells at them one time because they spilled the milk, but a pattern that really develops a wound. it's a big issue, and it affects all of us. Everybody can relate to one degree or another of something that wounded them from their father. Maybe their father was absent, or maybe their father was abusive or some aspect of their father that really hurt them and maybe hinders them as they get older. Now, to help me with this important discussion is my friend, Dr. Mike Courtney. Mike is the founder of branches, founded in 2007. Is that right, Mike?
Dr. Mike Courtney: That's right. Yeah. Coming up on 20th year.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: All right. And, he's the father of two boys, and his wife, Doris, has been just, with him through thick and thin. And there were some thin, thin times in there, Mike.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Doris says we've been married, 50 long and wonderful years. Some of them been wonderful, most of them just been long.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: He's also the teaching pastor at family teaching pastor at Family Worship Center. And, Mike, the subject of the father wound. So as I was mentioning to you right before we started, your sister, Shonda Pierce, the comedian, and she's, part of this movie that just came out earlier this year called He Calls Me Daughter.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Right.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: The story of four women. I believe it's four women that talk about the pain that they went through with their. With absentee dad, abusive dad, whatever the case may be. And so that triggered something in me to say that would be a good program for us to do and in my. You being the counselor extraordinaire and dealing with. With people's hurts and uncovering, those hurts. So let's, let's talk about the definitions. What. How would you define a father wound?
Dr. Mike Courtney: Well, you know, you mentioned, Shonda's project. it was collective project, but her part in that. I think it said two things to us about. Excuse me, about the father moon. One is that it's not just men that, that women are as prone. Perhaps it comes out in different ways. It's experienced in different ways, but it's a wound from both. From both for both sons and daughters. The second thing is that it is. It's trauma that is created by something that a father does to us that he shouldn't do. That's inappropriate anger, that kind of thing. But it's also just as real and just as traumatic when a father simply doesn't provide what's supposed to be provided in both those cases. So if you imagine a continuum from abuse to abandonment, anywhere along that continuum, the father wound is created. It's that sense of longing for a connection or a relationship that I think God created us for that goes unfulfilled and many times in. Tries to find itself someplace else in life.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so as somebody speaking of your background, you. You would be, superhuman to not have a father wound, given the father you had.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yes. And you know, and I also say I've. I probably mentioned this to you before, Jeff, but I have a friend who wrote a book. The title is they Preached it Straight, but I heard it crooked sometimes. This is. Sometimes our fathers did everything right. And it's not what the father did. It's the way we. We received it or failed to receive it. In my case, that it was true. My father was, bipolar. And so it created both of those things. It created an abusiveness. When he was in his manic phase, he would very often be. Be abusive in, you know, verbally or sometimes even physically. When he would go into the depressive phase, he was absent, he would be abandoned us. And so, yeah, I think, I think my sister and I both experienced father wounds from that. That experience with my father. And I don't need to defend him, but in his defense, he had a father wound from his father and his father before him. So we have lived for generations now handing down father wounds.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. okay, so if I don't know a whole lot about your dad, I know, yes, he. He's gone now. Right. He passed away. Mike, do you think your dad was a genuine believer in Jesus?
Dr. Mike Courtney: I do, I do. And, and, you know, I had the privilege in his last days of sitting by his bedside for a long time and even asking him that question. Are you sure everything is all right? I. Doris asked a great question. When we deal with couples that are going through some type of. Some type of trauma that's difficult to, to correlate with a walk of faith, she will say, do you think this is sickness or sin? And then she always gives the answer. The answer is yes, it's both of those. And so for my father, there was certainly, there were certainly times when the, the spirit of God was not evident in him and his behavior was anything but Christian. Much, of that, I believe, was the sickness part rather than the sin part. And so I, I do believe he was a believer, but he struggled with great medical, mental stress and, and it was evident in the way that he dealt with that bipolar.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Now, he was in the ministry from the time he was relatively young. Before you guys were born.
Dr. Mike Courtney: no, he, he entered the ministry. I was sixth, grade when he entered the ministry. He was always a minister. He had a great voice, great, singing voice. And so as long as I can remember, he would lead the worship in our churches. Always tiny little churches. I didn't know that it was legal for more than 50 people to gather together on Sunday. I thought it was against the law for that. My dad would lead the music in those churches. And then, and I think probably struggled with a call to ministry for many of those years. And then, and when I was about middle school age, he entered the pastoral ministry and pastored, tiny little churches until I, until I married my father, married my wife and I. And, came to me on the day of our wedding and he said, my bags are packed and I'm leaving your mother when the ceremony is over. And that was his kind of modus operandi. That's the way he would operate. But that, that started a long period of, of not being in ministry.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. when you think about how your parents got together. Because it was obviously extremely dysfunctional.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yes.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: one of the things Shonda brings up, just even in the trailer, is that she was resentful of your mom because she put up with all that.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Right.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: His girlfriends and all that stuff.
: So.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So tell me about that relationship.
Dr. Mike Courtney: My, my. Of course that was before my time. But. But my I might put it in context. I'm. I am the oldest. I was the oldest of four children, the only boy and then three sisters under me, all of us about three years apart. Shonda was the middle girl of those three sisters. My oldest sister was killed in an automobile accident when I was 21. My youngest sister, a few, well, 18 months after that died with leukemia. And so. And that contributed to the falling apart of my parents marriage. I think there were always, always infidelity issues and betrayal trauma. But I think that final straw was just the collapse of being able to handle the loss of two children. as I understand the story, my mother, was the baby of the family. I always say about the baby of the family, their approach to life is, here I am, take care of me. And my mother was a baby of the family, so she needed to be rescued. Grew up in a, In a farm family, relatively, poor. My father was the oldest, child and his. His turn to faith created a rift between his parents and. And him. He This probably way more detail than your listeners interest in, but they. He was a Kentucky farm family that grew tobacco. And my father came to Christ and said I can't grow tobacco anymore. And that caused this great divide. So he was kind of kicked out of the family. So he was looking for a project and my mother was a project wanting to be rescued. And I think that's part of what brought them together. Now the interesting thing is that that project grew old as. As the years went on. Her need to continually be rescued, his feeling burdened with that. And all these are perceptions. I don't know that they were really real. But his burden with that caused him to become resentful of her. and that in turn with his own mental health issues, did turn to. To acting out in the form of. Of external relationships. And he had several, extramarital affairs, some of which we were. Both Shonda and I were. Would step in and intervene and try to stop. And so that was. The whole family was a, ah, term that we don't use a lot in clinical counseling. Was crazy. The whole family was crazy.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, you know, I think about that. Is your mom still alive?
Dr. Mike Courtney: No, she passed away about 10 years ago. Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. so you know, when Shonda talks about being frustrated as a daughter, that mom.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yes.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Allowing. So your mom obviously knew this was happening. You guys knew it was happening. and it wasn't like the elephant in the living room. Because you guys did talk about it, evidently.
Dr. Mike Courtney: well, only in the middle of the crisis, when the crisis was going on, we would talk about it as soon as we got through. The CR Says nobody ever mentioned it again. And we never went back and did any kind of healing for that until. Until late in our life. Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: As far as your dad with. With other women, I'm assuming that when he's. When he's on, he's very charming.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yes. He was gifted. I always say he could preach like a bishop and sing like Pavarotti. He was gifted. Fun, funny. yes, when he. When he was on, he was really on. But when he would begin to slip into the despair he would become, it began with anger and rage and. And mean spirit and cruelty, and then finally his suicidal ideations.
: Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: And this is before any kind of medicine for any of that stuff.
Dr. Mike Courtney: It was before good medicine. they. They treated him again. This is kind of looking back and trying to do some. So they treat him with. With lithium, and, with vitamin B, which, are both things kind of almost over the counter things that are a little bit helpful. But, yeah, there wasn't anything good. And part of the problem with bipolar, even today, is that when you are down, you don't. You're so hopeless that you don't feel like taking the medication. It doesn't do any good when you're up. You don't need the medication. And so it's difficult with bipolar. It's difficult to get them to stay on their medication.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So we're getting up against a break. But if you were to counsel your dad when he was in the thick of all this with kids and all, what would you say to him?
Dr. Mike Courtney: Well, I would say, say, first of all, recognize that your value and worth is something that's inside you and don't be looking other places for that. And then. And then, secondly, based on that value and worth, find a good treatment plan and stay with it even when you don't feel like it. Just stay with that. Recognizing that on the other side of this, there's a. There's the life you've been looking for.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, we're talking to Dr. Mike Courtney. And Mike, is the founder of. Of Branches, now in its 20th year. And, we're talking about the father wound here on Real Truth for today. I'm your host, Pastor Jeff Schrieve, and we are up against a break, but we'll be back with more. Don't go away.
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: This is Real Truth for Today. Podcasts of the program are available on the podcast [email protected] now back to Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to Real Truth for Today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to my friend, Dr. Mike Courtney. Not only is Mike a, teaching pastor at the family worship center and the founder of branches that has helped untold, multitudes of people through problems and difficulties and addictions and all sorts of things, but he is also the author of one of my favorite books, Failure and How I Achieved It. it's got to be the best title ever. but he shares his story. I encourage you to, get a copy of that book. It will bless you. It will fill you with hope no matter what's going on in your life. As you read about Mike's life. And Mike, you don't pull any punches about your life just totally melting down. And you, are the one to blame for it.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Absolutely. Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: But now as we talk about the father wound, the father wound did, I mean, it had an effect on your decision.
Dr. Mike Courtney: It contributed. I always say as I, as I talk about my father's story especially, I always say these are reasons, they're not excuses that it contributed. It was kind of part of the hand that I was dealt. But there are a lot of people who were dealt similar hands and did not make the choices that I made. So, yeah, we are, we're all responsible for our own actions. And the beginning of healing, I think, is to recognize that, to choose that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: I, I heard a sermon one time, Mike, by Chuck Swindoll. And he was talking about David and how David, great man of God, a man after God's own heart, great king, wasn't a good dad Right. And one of the, One of the things Swindell points out was David had so many wives and so many children that there wasn't enough of him to go around.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Oh, yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: And so, so you had kids like Absalom, who ends up trying to kill him.
: Right.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amnon, who should have been disciplined and wasn't and ends up raping the daughter Tamar. And so it's just. Just turmoil in his family. And, surprisingly, he's the guy that faces off with Goliath, but when it comes to problems in his own family, he seems to just kind of hide under the bed. Yeah.
Dr. Mike Courtney: And that. Interesting. And he's also the guy that God says he's a man after my own heart. So you can have all of that, all of that going on. I, I think some of that has to do with our, gender differences, that men tend to be, at least feel like they need to be more stoic, they need to be less expressive, less verbal. And so it's harder for men to express those needs and kind of things. But I think also it has something to do with, with. With David's father and, and his father before him. And we go back and look at the generations, and especially in our world today, we have, lived with generations now of fatherless fathers, so that we, we have not learned very well how to handle emotional difficulties and those kinds of things. I think all of that plays into it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so, Mike, as you think about your own life, you think about the father wound. And Shonda shares in that movie, he, calls me daughter about the pains that she had and the, the ramifications of that. what would you say were the ramifications of your father wound? How would you describe the father wound specifically for you?
Dr. Mike Courtney: Right.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: And how did that play out in your life?
Dr. Mike Courtney: I have, you know, Jeff, I have a theory that I have proposed for 20 years now. And I, I have said, I'm sure somebody smarter than me came up with this. It's too good to have come out of my bee little brain. And so someday, maybe one of your listeners will be able to tell me where this came from. But, but my idea is that God created fathers and mothers with very specific responsibilities. And to our, to our fathers, he gave the responsibility of identity. He said to Adam, name the animals. Your. Your job is to give the name to things. And so our fathers give us identity. We, for the most part, a little bit different sometimes. For the most part, we keep our father's last name. We say in the south, things like Things like, boy, you're a chip off the old block or you're just like your old man. Our identity comes from our father. And identity is about value and worth. The Courtney's always work hard. The Shreves always are at the top of their class. It's about value and worth. to the mothers, he gave the responsibility of intimacy. And intimacy is about, is, is about nurturing, it's about being safe, knowing that, that there is somebody that loves you. So I always use the illustration. I, I played basketball in high school and college and never committed one foul in eight years of varsity basketball, according to my mother. Now I found out lots of games, but my mother knew the rep was wrong and I was right. Never committed a foul. And to have that someone who loves us, and makes us feel safe, those are responsibilities. So when, when one or both of those are not present, the wound is that I, I don't have that sense of identity. I don't have value and worth. When my father never said to me, you're a good man, I love you, I'm, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna be something. My father said to me one time in a. And I'm sure in desperation, you know, I was seventh grade and had skipped school for the fourth time that month. And you know, my father said, you're a bum. You're always gonna be a bum. And I know he said good things to me, but I can't remember those. I remember that you're a bum. And so that, that lack of identity. Now the interesting thing is that's what causes us to do well. I mean, I'm gonna prove him wrong. So I became a very successful pastor and, and, and was fun and funny and a good preacher and reached a lot of people and very that dry. But inside we're still those words. You're a bum, you're always going to be a bum. And so I was constantly looking for someone, some, something to say that's not true. You have value, you have work. But when, when the need is on the inside, there's nothing on the outside that's going to meet that need. And so I, much like my father, I went through a series of, extramarital affairs. Lost my ministry, nearly lost my family. God did a great work. God did a great healing. But that was the father wound, that side of that. And I think, I think in many ways kind of shonda experienced that same thing of not having identity and not having worth. And if I can add, because we've talked about It. A couple times, both Shawn and I were surprised at our resentment towards our mother. But when. When you're supposed to get from your mother this sense of safety, the world's a safe place, somebody loves you enough, to keep you safe. And what she was trying to do out of desperation, hold the family together at all cost and allow these affairs to go on, then we didn't get that sense of safety. The person who was supposed to keep us safe did not keep us safe. And so there was resentment for that. So the. So the mother wound, if there is such a thing, and I believe there is. The mother wound is about not being made to feel safe, not being loved enough for someone to protect you. And both of those have devastating consequences as we grow older.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Mike, do you think that, even people that grow up in a. In a really great, solid Christian family, loving mom and dad, they have a good marriage, do they still experience, to a certain extent, a, ah, father wound and a mother wound?
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yes. my wife would just. Just make you sick when you hear her story. Just makes you sick. See this. That her father was a saint.
Jeff Chamblee: He.
Dr. Mike Courtney: He really was the best man I've ever met in my life. Godly man. He was 96 when he died. and her and her mother are just godly. Godly people. But they were in a. They were in a. A farm setting. very strict, rigid, legalistic, probably kind of trying to do the right thing, but grew up in a great home, great family. And yet, as I talked to Dora, she experienced a lot of father wounds. Again, not from the. Not on the abuse side, but on the absence side of not being able to say I love you, and her not being able to hear that. So that when Doris and I married, I would say to her, I love you, and she'd say, me too. That's. You know, she. She couldn't verbalize. Cause she had a father wound that she had not heard that. Didn't know she deserved to hear that, didn't know how to say it back. Yes, yes. Even in the best of homes, we can. We can walk away with these. These wounds.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Was, Was your dad, demonstrative toward you as a kid or not?
Dr. Mike Courtney: He. He was, He wasn't. He wasn't affectionate, but he was demonstrative. And very often it came across, Jeff, as part of the pastor shtick that he was. When we were in the church service, he would. He would brag on us from the pulpit, or he would put his arms around us while he's Standing and talking to church people. And so it very much came across as. This is a part of his, Persona as pastor. And it's not a, it's not a genuine thing.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. So here's the thing that I would think would have really been hard for you and Shonda to not absorb, and that is that Christianity is just a show. It's not real.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Well, I, I would deny that we ever felt that. Well, I shouldn't say we. Let me, I'll, leave Shonda out of this. You have to speak for herself. I would deny that I ever felt that, but I certainly demonstrated that. I, I, I certainly lived it out, publicly far better than I did privately. And so probably some of, some of that was just learned behavior, that it's more important, it's more important what people see about you than what's really going on in your heart.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. you know, I, I've preached a lot of sermons about, you know, your kids aren't expecting you to be perfect, but they do expect you to be genuine.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: And when they don't, when they don't see the sincerity or the genuineness or like, this is all just. You talk a big game, but we don't live this out. That, that disconnect is really hard for a child to put together.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Absolutely. And I think I, I think it is as important. It's important for your children to, to see the affectionate you and the, and the affirming you and wrapping your arms around it. It's as important for you to be, you know, obviously age appropriate, but for you to be willing to share some of your struggles and some of your weaknesses. You know, Bud, I know you're having a hard time in school. I didn't like school. I didn't have many friends. I, you know, sometimes I remember I cheated on algebra. I don't know what you tell them, but I think for them to hear, to hear your struggles. You know, if. I think everybody could write a book, failure and How I Achieved it, and, and it might be a good idea. It might be a good thing.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So, Mike, what, because your background is so heavy in counseling, so if Mike Courtney today could talk to his mother when she was about 35, 40 years old, what would you have told her?
Dr. Mike Courtney: You know, I think a, part of what we just said, I think it's, it's important for you to tell the truth, to speak the truth, even when things are not well. You don't have to set your children down and tell them that their Father's having an affair. That's. That's probably the wrong thing to do, but set them down and say, our marriage is not good. We're going to. We're going to pray together for dad. You know, there are things that are happening, first of all, just to tell the truth. I think that's vitally important. And then secondly, to, As much as I would have said to my father, to find your. Your value and your worth in you, which really is only your relationship with Christ, that has to be that. That's. That's the source to all this. Find your relationship in you and not in those other places. My mother, I think, probably would have been guilty of what I would call emotional incest. There was never anything obviously physical that took place, but her. Her children took the place of her husband.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.
Dr. Mike Courtney: In terms of confidentiality and those kinds of things. So, yeah, so speak the truth. Find your value in your relationship with Christ and. And. And allow your children to develop their own lives apart from the trauma of the family. No.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. So, Mike, your dad tells you that of all times and places at your wedding. Hey, I'm, Did he do that on purpose to hurt you or to rain on your parade? Or was it.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah, I think that's probably as good a phrase as any, to rain on the parade. Even in the midst of his despair, life would be about him. he was the center of his universe. And. And so it was a way of saying, in all that's going on, on your day, this is still about me. I want you to be thinking about me. And interestingly enough, my response to that, Jeff, was to do the very thing that I wish someone had told my parents not to do, was to tell the truth. My response was, I should have sat down with my bride to be and say, this is what's going to happen. I didn't tell her. Kept a secret, didn't tell the family. And it was only at our honeymoon that I told, my wife what had happened. And because she is who she is, she said, we need to pack up and go back home and be with your mother. But, yeah, I think that was about him being the center of. At least in our little circle, the center of attention there.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: How long did it take you, Mike, to be able to forgive him for all those things that he did?
Dr. Mike Courtney: Well, again, it's interesting that I. At least what I was aware of, my. My m. Anger and frustration was more with my mother than it was with my father. I. I think, again, and this is this is a father. I think this is unique to father sons. Maybe mothers and daughters feel the same kind of thing. I think there's such a. A hunger for his approval, a hunger for that relationship that it was difficult for me to even verbalize my anger and frustration with him. For, for years and years and years I could talk about his sickness and. And at the same time voice my frustration about my mother's response to it. So probably as my own sin really began to come out and I really began to be aware of the fact that this is not just poor choices, but this is a generational curse that I carry. So I was in my early 40s when all of that took place. It was then that I was kind of forced to confront where all this came from. Have a, time of anger about that and then, and then recognize it. If there was any hope of me being forgiven, I had to forgive him. And so I did. I. I forgave my father. Didn't excuse him, didn't excuse me behavior, and I didn't enter back into it right away. We, we had some pretty strong boundaries in the way we would relate to him, but I, but I did forgive him m. And kind of found my own healing in that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, you're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to Dr. Mike Courtney. We're talking about the father wound. It's something that we can all relate to. We'll be right back.
: If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff, email pastor jeffromhishheart.org now back to Real Truth for today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to Dr. Mike Courtney. Mike is the, founder of Branches. And Mike Branches Counseling center has how many different outlets for people?
Dr. Mike Courtney: We have five offices all in all in middle Tennessee. But, we also now, thanks to Covid, we do a lot of telehealth. We do intensives where people will come in literally from around the country. So we see, we see about 18,000 people a year. It branches. Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Wow, that's a lot of folks. And that's over a 20 year period of time now. It grew, obviously.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: when you started branches in 2007, you, you were freshly receiving healing from your own, life and then sharing that with other people. I know you like to say, well, I was meeting with some drunks in a small group and it kind of grew from there. But, you know Mike, when I think about just from your book, how many People, you're not going to know till heaven. How many people were really impacted by God's grace and given hope because of how they saw the Lord work in your life? if any marriage was dead and anybody's ministry was gone, it was yours.
Dr. Mike Courtney: absolutely. And, you know, some great things have happened. Branches is a wonderful story, and so thankful. And. And my wife and I have a wonderful relationship. Our. Our boys, our grandson, all of that. But we do recognize that is entirely the grace of God. It's. It's the work of God. And if there was some way that I could have been smart enough to figure this out, I wouldn't have got in this mess in the first place. So it. It is something that God did. And. And I think that, as we said earlier, I think people are as moved by the struggle as they are by the healing of being honest and being willing to say, man, I really, really messed this thing up. And God. God can take that and turn it around for you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Mike, when you're growing up in that kind of environment, that's very scary and unsettling, as your dad would just have these mood swings. Does that. Does that bond you to your siblings in a. In a special way?
Dr. Mike Courtney: I think so. I think there was kind of that. That Stockholm syndrome that we were. We were surviving in the foxhole together. I. It's interesting. Shonda and I are. She. She will, probably sue us if I say this out loud, but we are very similar. our personality is similar. We. We. We laugh at all the inappropriate things in the same way. We're very similar. And my two sisters who have gone on to heaven, they were both very, very similar. Be interesting to see how, as adults, they would have handled the trauma that we went through. but for Shonda and I, yes. Even. Even today, while we have our. Certainly our differences and lots of things, even today, there is this closeness. My wife is always surprised. We can. We can be yelling and screaming at each other about something and turn right around, be hugging each other. And so, yes, I think there was a real closeness because we understand what we survived.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so, it sounds like you and Shonda were probably more like your dad and your other two sisters, more like your mom.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Now, Shonda would really sue us if she heard us say that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.
Dr. Mike Courtney: But, yes, I think that's true. I think. I think our mother was. She was very funny, and Shonda got her sense of humor from her mother. But in terms of a personality of kind, of. I hope I say this humbly, but in public charisma. Yes, that kind of thing. Very much like our dad, but also very much like him in terms of. Of, internalizing, faults and errors and not allowing them. Trying to keep them hidden, not allowing them to be seen. So, yeah, I think that's probably true.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, Mike, when you counsel somebody that's got a problem with this, that or the other, whether it's affection or anger or whatever, how much of the time does it go back to a father wound?
Dr. Mike Courtney: You know, hard. I have to be very careful not to transfer my own issues into other people's lives. But it's hard to deal with, almost any kind of issue in someone's life without it being traced back to some type of lacking parentally. But especially the father wound. I just think there's something unique about that. And God created us. it's interesting that he. That scripture instructs us to call him Father. I. I mean, why is that? Why don't we call him Mother? I think there's something about that relationship that. That. That God wanted that nearly always. Nearly always? Yeah. Whether it's depression or addiction or. Or failures in relationships, if we trace it back and talk about there is some measure of father wound, something that's missing that I wish I had gotten from my father, that. That comes to bear.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: You know, what surprises me, Mike, is that this is a big issue. The Bible doesn't really talk a lot about that. you know, and we had mentioned David. David's a great man in scripture. Not a great dad. Samuel, one of the greatest men in the Old Testament. And it doesn't appear that he was a great dad.
Dr. Mike Courtney: His sons. Right.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: what do you make of that? That, maybe there's not the emphasis in scripture on that. And then you have great men of God who. Maybe they're absent. Maybe Samuel has gone a lot. I don't know. how do you. How do you work through that?
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah. You know, if you. I guess if you go back and read some of the. The Old Testament stories of Samuel visiting Saul, Samuel visiting David, and think of how long it took to travel to those places. Yeah, he probably was absent a lot. You know, I. I think there's two things I'll begin almost every counseling session by saying, I don't know. You know, we're. We're trying to work this out. Let God lead us to it. I don't know for sure, but I do think that there is this assumption in scripture. It seems like perhaps you and I have had this conversation before, Jeff. There's this assumption in scripture that the father God relationship would be so prevalent that it would. That it would supersede the failures of earthly fathers. And if we could really grasp that. And, I. My. My own son taught me this lesson. He was talking about the, the story of the rich young ruler in the Gospel of Mark. And, and in response to that, when he goes away. Sorrowful, Sour, sour, sorrowful, he goes away sad. Peter says, hey, you know, we've given up everything to follow you. What do we get out of this?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.
Dr. Mike Courtney: And, and Mark says it differently from the other gospels. The other gospels, Jesus says, I tell you the truth, if you're going to follow me, you have to give up everything. Father, son, father's, mother's, brother, sisters, home, work.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right?
Dr. Mike Courtney: And then he says, if you do, you'll get it back a hundredfold. Mothers, brothers, sisters, home, work. He leaves the word father out of the second list. And, and, and I think as I look at that, that the idea was they need to find that relationship in me and in me alone. and my son said to me, he said, dad, your job was to be a placeholder until I could reach a point where I developed that relationship with God and that father. Relationship with God. So I think maybe that's. Maybe that's part of. Maybe that's why there are so many not good fathers in Scripture. Because God's saying there's only one father you can really count on, and that needs to be me. Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right. what would you say to a guy in your office that. Whose life is shambles and his family's shambles? He comes to know Christ, he gets his life right with Christ. How does he make it right with his family?
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah, that's great question. And one that I get all the time. And again, I was in my. I was in my, I guess, mid-40s by the time I really turned this around and began to move in the right direction. So I say, first of all, it is never too late. It's absolutely never too late. There are things I wish that I had been better at when my kids were 4, 5, and 6 years old. But it's never too late. So. So start now. Start being the kind of dad that even your adult children want you to be. The second thing is that you can never be too honest, that. Be open with them and transparent with them. Not just about your failures, but about your healing and about what God's doing in your life now, allowing them to see that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Mike, did your dad ever, apologize for the dad that he was,
Dr. Mike Courtney: my father kind of had a protected illness as he was dying. And, he lived in Northern Kentucky, about five hours from us. I would drive up every weekend for the last three months. I drove up every weekend to sit by his bed so that his family, by now he had another family so they could go off and do whatever they needed to do. And the last weekend that I was with him, that he could still talk, he. I was there a couple more weekends when he couldn't talk. But the last weekend and we could tell it was getting kind of close. And so I said to him, I said, dad, is there anything you, you want to say? Anything you feel like you need to say? And my father said, no, I'm good. And, and I said, you know, he's never going to get this and I can't expect him to be something that he's not. So, no, there was never an apology. But, that's okay. He didn't have to apologize. I had forgiven him. And I was determined. I was determined to be a good son at that point so that in turn I would have the privilege of being a good father to my, to my children. Yeah, so don't. That might be. The other thing is don't expect your parents to. To be something they have never been. You just. You forgive them, set good boundaries, but. But live in a healthy way.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: That's. Yeah, that's good. That's hard though.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah. Oh yeah, it is. And there are moments even still, he's been gone for 10 years. The moment still that I, you know, say, come on, dad, you could have done better than that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: But you expect to meet him in heaven?
Dr. Mike Courtney: I do. I absolutely do. I. You know, he's probably gonna be closer to the throne than I am, so. Yes, I expect to meet him.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. did he ever apologize to your mom?
Dr. Mike Courtney: No, No, I don't think so. But he did. My. My mother died about a year before he did. And. And when I, I called him to tell him that she had died and they had, They had been divorced for 30 years by that time. But, he really spoke highly of her. He said she was a. She was a very. To me. Only to me didn't come to the funeral or. Which I didn't expect him to, but. But she was a very good woman and he spoke high of her. So I think in his way, he. He tried to, He tried to express some sense of gratitude for her.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Mike, what do you say to the person we Just have a couple minutes left. But what do you say to the person that they know they have to forgive? They had a parent, you know, the. The physical abuse, sexual abuse, I think is. Even then, takes it a step further. Further.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Absolutely.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: How do you forgive that? So what do you say to that person that says, I just don't see how I can forgive them for what they did to me?
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yes. I think my wife has a wonderful phrase she uses with. With women who have gone through betrayal, trauma. She'll say, you have to forgive, but not today. And so I think, first of all, it's okay to be angry. In fact, it's probably important to have a period of time where you can be angry. You can verbalize that, you can express that. Write a letter to your dad. Don't mail it. That just creates another level of problem. But write a letter, express everything. It's okay to be angry. Then the time comes where I think we are instructed in scripture to forgive. So there is a legal, part of forgiveness that simply says, I forgive you. And to me, the definition of that is, I release you from the responsibility of ever making this right to me. You don't. You don't have to make my life good. You don't have to change anything. I release you from that. I forgive you. The next part is the emotional part that follows. And sometimes, sometimes it takes years, sometimes it probably never happens while that person is still alive. And. And that's about keeping ourselves safe and knowing what we need. That's okay. I just have to do, I think what God instructs me to do is that legal part. I forgive you. You don't have to make this up to me. You don't owe me anything. I, completely absolve you of any debt, and now we're okay. And then allow God to work on the emotional part, on the comfortable part. this little bit personal hope, not too personal. My sister. I think my sister did the first part, and it was never able to do the second part. But she experienced different things for my father than I did, and that's okay. And we've talked about that a lot. She doesn't have to feel warm and fuzzy about him. She knows that she forgave him, and that's enough.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So I, would think that the respect part would be so hard. It's like, I forgive you, but I have zero respect for you.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Yeah, I had. I tried to learn to respect the. The office.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
Dr. Mike Courtney: This is my father. I respect. I respect that word, Father. And so I will give. I will give the office the dignity and the honor that it deserves. The person, you know, much as we would do, in a. In a political setting, you know, we might agree or disagree with a. We have lost that. My. My grandmother. My grandmother was a yellow dog Democrat. But you did not say anything negative about, any Republican president. That's her president.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.
Dr. Mike Courtney: We've lost that. It's a shame. We have, but I think we need to at least regain that with our fathers, that. I respect the office. The person is lacking, but I can respect the office.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Very good. Well, Mike, this has been a wonderful time. I always appreciate getting to talk to you.
Dr. Mike Courtney: You're one of my.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: My favorite guys. And, so God bless you, brother.
Dr. Mike Courtney: Thank you, Jeff. Thank for the privilege. Always good to see you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Thank you. Well, go out today, Shine for Christ and share what great things the Lord has done for you. And guess what? God will use you as his witness. God bless you.
What happens when a father wounds his children through abuse, absence, anger, neglect, or a lack of affirmation? On today’s Real Truth for Today, Pastor Jeff Schreve sits down with Dr. Mike Courtney, founder of Branches, to discuss the deep and lasting effects of the “father wound.”
Dr. Courtney shares openly from his own painful childhood, including his father’s struggles with bipolar disorder, anger, abandonment, and infidelity, and how those experiences affected his own life, marriage, ministry, and relationship with his children. He explains how wounds from one generation can be passed to the next—and how God’s grace can break that cycle.
Pastor Jeff and Dr. Courtney also discuss the importance of finding our identity and worth in Christ, being honest about our failures, setting healthy boundaries, and learning to forgive even when a parent never apologizes. Most importantly, this conversation offers hope that it is never too late for God to bring healing and restoration to a wounded family.
What happens when a father wounds his children through abuse, absence, anger, neglect, or a lack of affirmation? On today’s Real Truth for Today, Pastor Jeff Schreve sits down with Dr. Mike Courtney, founder of Branches, to discuss the deep and lasting effects of the “father wound.”
Dr. Courtney shares openly from his own painful childhood, including his father’s struggles with bipolar disorder, anger, abandonment, and infidelity, and how those experiences affected his own life, marriage, ministry, and relationship with his children. He explains how wounds from one generation can be passed to the next—and how God’s grace can break that cycle.
Pastor Jeff and Dr. Courtney also discuss the importance of finding our identity and worth in Christ, being honest about our failures, setting healthy boundaries, and learning to forgive even when a parent never apologizes. Most importantly, this conversation offers hope that it is never too late for God to bring healing and restoration to a wounded family.
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