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Dr. Jessica Peck prescribes Hope for healthy families on American Family Radio
preborn.com/AFR hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing Hope for healthy families here on Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day getting to spend time with you guys prescribing Hope for healthy families. And listen, I am really excited about today's show. Today we have a great blend of science and faith for you and you know that is a space and intersection that I really love to hang out on. And on this show we talk a lot about family. That is really my mission is to prescribe hope for healthy families, not for perfect families because no such family exists. But in that context we talk about Things like parenting and marriage and discipline and communication and have healthy habits for healthy homes. We talk about that every Friday.
Attachment theory explores how early relationships shape our expectations about safety and trust
But underneath so much of that is really a deeper question in our families, do we feel safe and known and loved and connected to the people that are closest to us? And that question takes us into the world of science and attachment theory. Now, for those of you who are not familiar, attachment theory emerged from developmental and psychological research that examines how our earliest relationships, particularly relationships with our primary caregivers as we're born and grow through childhood, how do those relationship shape our expectations about safety and trust and connection and relationships. Now, over time, researchers have identified patterns of attachment that influence how people respond to closeness, how they respond to conflict, how they respond to rejection and separation and vulnerability. And while attachment theory is a psychological framework rather than a biblical doctrine, it raises some profoundly important questions for Christian families. What happens when a child's earliest experiences of relationship communicate that the world isn't safe? What does that m mean? Looking at that through a biblical lens, how do attachment wounds affect the very daily interactions that adults have as they parent, as they look m in marriage, as they lead, as they relate to others? And can the wounds we experience in human relationships and influence the way we understand God? I'll give you a spoiler alert. The answer is yes. But really, what does scripture have to say? That's what we're going to look about. What does scripture have to say about the human need for connection and security and belonging and redemption? And how does that fit in this attachment theory framework?
Today's conversation brings together science and theology through a pastor
Now, today's conversation, as I said, is bringing together science and theology through a pastor. Our guest today is not a stranger to the show. We welcome back Dr. Ryan Rush. He is pastor of Kingsland Baptist Church in Katy, Texas. And Ryan has spent decades in ministry and made connecting church and home life essential part of his calling. You may remember him being on the show before about his book, which I highly, highly recommend, called Restore the Table, talking about family meals together and the science behind that. And he has really become a national voice for the faith at home movement and taught theology of the family. But there's another reason this conversation is really fascinating to me. Dr. Rush's doctoral research examine the relationship between childhood attachment style and the leadership style of senior pastors across culture. And that is really, that was really curious to me. So I got lots of questions. And today we're going to explore attachment not just as that psychological construct, but as a framework that can help us understand our own families and our parenting and our marriage and we're going to be really thoughtful about looking at it from both sides. Ryan, so glad to have you back here. Thank you so much for joining us, Jessica.
Dr. Ryan Rush: It's always a pleasure to be on. And when you sent out the request that we talk about this, I got really excited. So I, look forward to this conversation.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Me too. I'm telling you, I was taking notes so fast while you were talking. My paper was catching fire because I'm like, yes, yes and amen.
Can you explain attachment theory in simple terms for everyday people?
So let's start at the beginning. Let's talk about the phrase attachment theory because I think already some people are like, okay, this sounds maybe boring or a little weird, but it is really not. Can you explain it in simple terms and why it matters for everyday people?
Dr. Ryan Rush: Absolutely. In fact we see this all the time, don't we? That science makes a quote, discovery that the scripture has said all along. There is nothing more true than the science of attachment theory that has really gained traction over the last 50 years in the field of psychology. My passion, my heartbeat is the family recognizing that the home is the primary place of discipleship that God has ordained. And so we take that aim at the family. But this is given a, ah, language that allows me to have a conversation in the broader, spectrum of academia, but also to better understand and put a name to some things that God said all along in a course that we see. So emotion, rather attachment is quite simply our God given emotional connection to one another. That's it. we all know inherently that that is true. But science has shown that this is not just a luxury that we are connected to people, but we desperately need that. And so I would add one element to that. We have a God given emotional connection to other people, beginning with our parents and those early caregivers that ends up impacting all the other relationships that we have. And so before a child can explain anything about relationships, they are already asking questions. Am I safe? Am I loved? Will somebody come when I have a need? And so from our earliest days we're asking those questions and receiving the answers through the cues that we get from our parents. And so here's what's especially interesting about attachment. I think in light of the family and in light of so many narratives in scripture, but, but also just everyday life is that we don't leave those lessons behind when we turn 18. It's not just something that we connect with our parents over. It impacts all of our other relationships, how we lead, how we parent.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Later on, you know, when you're talking, I'M thinking of the proverbial, you know, therapy couch. And, and the therapist is taking notes. And it's like it all goes back to my mother. But there is some tr. The fact that there are generational patterns there. And I think, you know, Ryan there may be people out there who are in the middle of raising their families. They're in their 30s or 40s or 50s, and they're thinking, you know what? I didn't have a great childhood. I didn't have a great attachment. But, I've gotten past that. Like, how is that impacting me now? But you'd be surprised at how much we are developmentally wired for healthy connection and how much physiologically happens to us to create preferred neural pathways in our brain that are unhealthy in attachment when we don't have that healthy attachment.
An unhealthy attachment impacts the way that we conduct relationships for our lifetime
So can you talk about what healthy attachment looks like and what happens? Why an unhealthy attachment, even as children, from a biblical lens, impacts the way that we conduct relationships for our lifetime.
Dr. Ryan Rush: Right. And so I want to encourage, your listeners that we're not going to put them to sleep today, really aren't with a bunch of scientific stuff, because this is all so inherently true. We all recognize this. Anybody who's ever dropped a child off at the nursery has seen attachment wound when a child cries and longs for mom or dad in that moment. So we see that. But when we say, what are we looking for in a healthy attachment? You could summarize that in two words, security and freedom. And those work hand in hand. You know, we think about it. That's how God created us. So he created us to have relationship, to be in relationship. But he also said go. So he empowered us to go into impact and to have an impact on the world around us. And so both of those things are born out of relationships. So if I have a healthy relationship with my parents as a child, and I know I can run to them when I'm in danger, but I also know, conversely, that I can run from them with the knowledge that someone is behind me and cheering me on so I can go do what I need to do, that's it. That's how, our attachment system is wired in our brains. And the more we know from research, the more we see this is true. And of course, we see that all through the word of God.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, there's specific ways that we respond when we have a wound and that attachment when we don't have that healthy attachment. And I'll say there are a lot of Families, Ryan whose parents are very well intentioned, but just ill equipped to overcome patterns of generational trauma and they, and dysfunction. And so they just, you know, they do this a lot of times without being ill intentioned. It's just the way that they learned and the way that they view the world and they think it's normal, but it does profoundly impact us. And when you start looking at the characteristics, I feel like so many people will see themselves in this picture.
Dr. Ryan Rush: Yes. So when we, when we understand how the wounds happen, it's not as though going back to your early analogy of it's so good of laying on a therapy couch. That's not what we're doing. We're just recognizing that our childhoods impacted us. And in small part the conversation that we're having, our parents or our caregivers are sitting behind us, you know, for good or for bad, like what we learned and how we learned whether we could be safe or what we could say and all those things. And so, we need to understand that wounds, when we use that term, we're just talking about things that are events or sometimes non events. So there are things that shouldn't have happened. That happened. I mean, we live in a broken world and since the fall of Adam and Eve, here we are. And so things happen that shouldn't happen. And so we recognize there's ramifications that take place, that we read about in the Ten Commandments, the second command, you know, don't make another image. I, the Lord am a jealous God and will visit, the iniquity on the third and fourth generation. We see that. I think that has to do with attachment. But we also know that there are non events, things that should have happened that didn't happen, you know, and they don't all have to be incredibly traumatic. Some really are very sad, but they can be. You know, I just wish my dad had been there for the game, you know, and wasn't, for any of the games or the stories we hear that it just sets like something didn't take place that they wish had taken place. That can impact that and wound. The only reason I don't like that word is it sounds like, well, it's just, it's permanent. We can't deal with it. God can heal whatever that wound is. I, absolutely believe that. And that's one of the great things about really understanding and unpacking what's happening here. Say, oh, wait a second, there can be healing.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Absolutely. Because that's the hope in all of this just as we're wired for attachment and there's consequences when the family doesn't follow God's design. You know, we see that in brokenness. But we serve a God of restoration and renewal and who loves to make broken things beautiful and that is the hope in all of this.
We have an anxious attachment or an avoidant attachment
And I want you to talk about the different kinds of ways that that manifests in adulthood, Ryan where we have an anxious attachment or an avoidant attachment. And as we're doing that I'm going to tell people, if you're listening with your spouse, don't start pointing fingers and say oh that's you, that's you. But really look and see is it you? can you find yourself in one of these and one of these characters?
Dr. Ryan Rush: Absolutely. And so you, you mentioned the two primary categories that often come out. Of course we start with secure attachment. The majority of people we deal with have, you know, you're going to have moments of insecurity. But we live in security because of the blessing that our parents gave us. And incidentally, parents don't have to be perfect in order to have secure attachment be built. God gave us a lot of grace there. When we talk about anxious attachment, we're talking about a child early on who somehow gets the idea if I'm going to get the love that I need from my par, I'm going to have to work really hard for that. I'm going to have to over perform, I'm going to have to cry more than you could possibly imagine in order to get their attention, things like that. And so what they learn is kind of a hidden lie that I'm not worthy. And so I'm going to have to really work to perform. So what happens sometimes in adulthood if somebody deals with an insecure attachment is they, they, they attach themselves to ah, other relations in unhealthy ways and almost adamant and in neurotic ways to use that sounds too negative but just this, this sense of desperation. And all of us know when you're in a relationship and somebody appears desperate or clingy that doesn't. It generally makes you want to repel so it can actually against them and then you have a cycle. So anxious attachment will be this, this this overt clingy sense of desperation in order to attain the relationships that we need. When you talk about avoidant attachment it's not exactly the opposite of that but what we're saying is go back to childhood. A child cries and cries and cries and cries and doesn't get the help they need. And then they, they start realizing, wait, the more I cry, it doesn't matter what I do. my parents are not going to come. It's an extreme example, but they start to learn that their normal social cues that are inherited in the heart of a child, to try to get attention, to cry or to reach out and do these things when they're put off long enough and they learn it doesn't work. And so when there is crisis, instead of running or clinging or even doing the safe thing of saying, I need you, they actually turn away. So the time when we need relationships the most, during crisis, they would separate themselves. And so we've all been around people where, when times get hard, let's say in a marriage or in a crisis or an argument, what they do is shut down, move away at the very time they need to.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm gonna hold you right there, Dr. Rush. We are going to be right back after this break and we're going to break this down down and show you how it can show up in your relationships, but more importantly, what you can do about it. It's all part of God's design and he gives us hope and grace in a broken world. We'll explore more of that with Ryan Rush when we come back right after this break. Don't go away.
Without people like you, this podcast would not exist
Hello, I'm Jessica peck, host of Dr. Nurse Mama. Did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. And that's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast. Please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.net/give that's afr.net/give
God Is in This Story by Big Daddy Weave and Katy Nichole : Words that tell me I'm, no good chapters that define me for so long but the hands of grace and endless love dusted off and picked me up Told my heart that hope is never gone God is in this story God is in the details Even in the broken hearts he holds my heart he never fails When I'm at my weakest I will trust in Jesus always in the heart Knows the one who goes before me God is in. This, this story.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is God is in this story by Big Daddy Weave. And as we're talking about God being in your story, he is in your story. Maybe your story is one of, ah, family brokenness. Maybe you have generational dysfunction. Maybe you're struggling in that. Maybe you are working to make a new way. We're talking today to Dr. Ryan Rush. He's the pastor of Kingsland Baptist Church in Texas, and his dissertation was actually on attachment theory, which is a psychological framework to understand really what he has. He said what scripture has told us for a long time, since the beginning of time. How God designed the family to be, how God designed us to attach to our parents, and what happens in a broken world with broken attachment. And a lot of us, we think, okay, we don't want to rely on our past and think, okay, we're just going to sit in that pain. But it does give us a helpful framework for understanding why we do some of the things. Things we do, why we think, the ways that we think, why we respond intuitively, some of the ways that we respond. And recognizing those things is really important in fixing generational dysfunction. Because sometimes what I see is a lot of families with generational dysfunction, they have a really specific negative influence. There's a story of addiction or abuse or divorce or other forms of really outwardly clear brokenness. But sometimes it's just being emotionally absent. It's just being physically or mentally absent. It's being emotionally unresponsive. And those impact the ways that our brains develop at a young age, as Dr. Rush was just describing, and those patterns become deeply ingrained. We have to recognize those patterns, unlearn and relearn healthy ways of relating. And, Ryan you were just in the middle of talking about the different kinds of attachment wounds that can happen. The two primary ones, course, you know, we can branch out, from there, but we were talking about anxious attachment, basically thinking, growing up. Think having someone not meet your needs, and thinking, okay, I'm not worthy of love, so I have to try really hard. I have to work really hard. I have to be really good. I have to be really funny. I have to be really present. I have to be really needy. I have to, like, say, look at me. I need. I need help, because I'm. I'm not just gonna get it. And then we have the avoidant attachment, which says, like, that core of that is, no one's going to be there for me but me. I've got to take care of myself. Nobody else is going to show up, so I got to depend on myself. And if that means pushing people away, so I'm going to give it to you right back there and. And let you continue on.
Dr. Ryan Rush: Sure. Thanks, Jessica. So if anxious attachment is reduced to a message of I'm not worthy, you could imagine that avoidant attachment is really reduced to the point, they're not able. And that's That's a sad place to be. In other words, they're really not going to be able to meet my needs. And so there's a defeatist, attitude there. And so you can understand with either those ideas in your mind how they could really mess with the rest of your relationships for your whole life. And very often they're not even true with regard to your parents. It's just. It's not necessarily what's taking place. It's how you perceive what's taking place. And that's why I love what you just said, Jessica, that these attachment wounds can be changed. We have. We are deeply wired in our brains. We understand that. And once again, we go back to science and theology because, Paul said so long ago, be transformed by the renewing of your minds. And now we know through the science of neuroplasticity, your mind can change, like, you can literally change your belief system in this regard and bring it back to healthy relationships.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And these, the ways that we process this, the, attachment that we have, the ways that we see our parent, we know it does reflect the way that we view God. If we have an emotionally unavailable father, it's very easy to transfer those characteristics to your relationship with God. So how do we, how do we have a balance here that's healthy? Ryan how do we recognize the ways that attachment woundedness may impact us while not sitting there and just like, blaming people or just, like, you know, saying our parents were terrible? Like, how do we recognize that and move forward in a hopeful way?
Dr. Ryan Rush: Yes, that's so important, Jessica, because explanation is not the same thing as excuse. It's not really going to help us to say, okay, we just found out that my parents weren't there for this, or I did thus and so, and so, therefore, that's why I do this. No, you don't get to say that. We have to take ownership of our own decisions and our sin and repent of those sins. this is not what it's about. But to be able to understand why we behave in a certain way will allow us to then redeem those things. And even better for those who are married to understand maybe why our spouses act in a certain way. To say, wait a second, rather than saying, why are you this way? To say, well, what happened to you? Because maybe we can, Maybe we can unpack these things better. And that goes for all our relationships.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, and often, you know, people have heard the phrase opposites attract, and it gives me a little chuckle because I think, yes, often, people with Anxious, anxious. Avoidance. Marry, dismissive avoidance. You know, you can have that, that opposite attract.
How do you see those attachment wounds manifesting themselves in marriage?
How do you see those attachment wounds manifesting themselves in marriage?
Dr. Ryan Rush: Well, I don't know that there's any mechanism that God has created on earth that more quickly brings out the challenges in personality than marriage. Right? So we learn real quickly that we live in a broken world when we get into marriage. And so if you can understand maybe why these things are tr. they're not necessarily all bad. It might be, hey, wait, you know, my wife might need a little bit more space when we're having a disagreement before we engage or find resolution. And she's not communicating to me. She doesn't care. She's just, she needs me to tone down the, let's just solve this right now. So sometimes it just brings explanation. And the, the, the strategy I think is to, to not bring back childhood. Every time you have a problem or an argument with your spouse or an issue with children or anything else, it's to say, okay, if I can understand how I tend to be just a self awareness of how I'm doing this, and then I have, something, a wording of how I think and operate and then I can measure that against the word of God. Well, that's the first step to healing for a Christian. Right? Because then we can say, well, what does God say about who I am, what he's called me to be and how I can respond? And then I can act out of obedience rather than always emotion or fear.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And you know, when we think about the ways that we respond in attachment, often, you know, we think that our way of seeing the world is the best way, is the normal way. Because when you grow up a certain way, you're like, we just don't talk about our feelings. Like, why, why are you wanting to like come back around this and talk about it a million times? Or you know, the family that's saying, hey, you know, you're just sweeping everything under the rug. You're not talking about it at all. How, how do we step back with some humility and recognize that we may be wired to think in ways that really we didn't even realize was happening, but this was a foundation that was laid in childhood that, that impacts how we see the world. How do we step back with humility and recognize, okay, not everybody sees the world this way, and this may not be the right or wrong way to see the world. It's just the reality of the way I see the world.
Dr. Ryan Rush: Right. Well, my first answer, my first Instinct is to give you such a preacher answer, But I am a pastor. The more we look at the Word of God, the more we recognize, okay, that's the gold standard. My experience or my reactions or my way are not the gold standard. The standard is what God has called us to do. And so, you know, it's amazing how that kind of clarifies how we move forward on some of these elements. But if once we define how we're doing things, then we can say, well, wait a second. Why do I do this? And the fancy term in attachment theory is internal working model. It's just basically the narrative that we tell ourselves whether it's true or not. So we say, oh, you know, what? This, happened. And so, you know, my wife's mad at me, and so therefore, I must have done something horribly wrong, or I must not be lovable, or I need to perform in order to do this, or, I've been rejected because before any of those happen to say, wait a second, what is true? Who is God, and what is true? And if I go back to what is true, and it allows me to say, okay, maybe I have four or five key scriptures that I write down that I know are true of, who God is, and I want to be more like him. He's the model. And all of a sudden, God can redeem those reactions and I can respond instead. You know, there's a big difference between. Between responding and reacting. Any inanimate object can react, but responding comes from a, well of wisdom. Or, look at what God has to say and say, okay, next time this happens. Even though I may have been wired as a child in a certain way, it's not the same as a personality type. You know, it can be changed. Say, I'm going to try in obedience to God to respond in this way. And the more I do that, I'm going to recognize, hey, wait a second. When we go by God's design in our relationships, then the response generally that we get back is more healthy and stable, and it allows us to cultivate deeper relationships.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, every Friday we talk about a healthy habit for healthy families. And we did four core spiritual disciplines. And then we went through rhythms, six rhythms. And then, communication patterns. And one of those communication habits I had was exactly that. Ryan was. Was choosing to respond instead of react. Because we are, you know, developmentally wired. And. And there's so many things that just lead into our reaction that's just instant, like we just go on autopilot. But there's Something really biblical about taking that autopilot off and being really thoughtful and intentional about the ways that we respond and that we choose to respond. And that goes to Scripture. You know, every. Be quick to listen and slow to speak and slow to become angry. And often those that anger, that talking, that, you know, not listening, that talking over, those are all things we're wired to react in a broken world. And you said you were going to give a pastor response, but, I'll.
What can we learn about Joseph and his life and attachment theory?
I'll give you an invitation to do that even more, Ryan because just during the break, you and I were talking about the character of Joseph, because sometimes, you know, we think, well, what does the Bible have to say about, you know, about these issues? Well, the Bible is pretty much from Genesis to Revelation, almost a, story of dysfunctional families.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It's.
Dr. Jessica Peck: There are a lot of those, and Joseph is one of those. What can we learn about Joseph and his life and attachment theory?
Dr. Ryan Rush: Yes, I mentioned that I'm about to preach a series from Genesis 37 to 50 at my church just, outside of Houston, for that very reason. Because you. I'm not sure that you could come up with a more dysfunctional family than what Joseph came from. You know, he lost his mom at an early age. He had step parents in really odd ways. he favoritism. He had a dad with irrational favoritism. He had brothers that hated him and sold him slavery. He was falsely accused of adultery. And you go on and on. But in those early days, he really had a lot of, you know, terrible examples, to be honest. I mean, there were times when Jacob was way off the reservation. And of course, later on in his life, God redeemed that and brought him back. But Joseph was able not only to. To make it through what he'd been through, but the Lord actually redeemed all those experiences to make him a great leader. I don't know that he would have been able to do what he did apart from what he went through. And that's why he could say Genesis 50, verse 20. I believe what you meant for evil, God meant for good. And that's the beauty of whatever attachment experience you had as a child. God can redeem it and actually use some of those challenges that you had to maybe make you, more, compassionate or, have more fortitude as a leader, more staying power. There's all sorts of things that we see that play out when God redeems that. And that was really the heart of my dissertation and why I enjoyed it so much. As much as you can enjoy A dissertation, absolutely.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And the end of that part of the verse, as, you know, what you intended for evil, God intended for good, for the saving of many lives. And sometimes it can be so hard, Ryan for us to understand in a broken world why God allows these things to happen. And there may be people thinking, yeah, I had a terrible childhood and I've overcome a lot of that and I'm a much better person. And. But really there's a higher hope and a higher calling than that. There's a higher healing than that, rather than just what can we can rely on ourselves to do? And that's, I think that's why the self help industry is just booming right now, because people experience adversity and then they want to rely on themselves. How can we call ourselves and submit to a higher calling and a higher hope than that?
Dr. Ryan Rush: That's such a good question. You know, so going back to science to I think undergird what you're asking with regard to the scripture, one of the amazing things about attachment science that we've discovered just over the last 10 years, a number of studies have shown that an infant or toddler actually borrows the nervous system of mom and dad. So in other words, they can't, they're not capable of processing feelings. And so they borrow the, the, the peace or the relaxation or the stress, unfortunately, of mom. So they can actually take on that nervous system and those feelings at that time. And I think it goes all the way Back to Genesis 1. We've been made in the image of God, at least in part of that image, we've been made in his likeness. So God's character is reflected in us. He's faithful, we can be faithful. He's gracious, he's loving, he's good, he's kind, he's holy. And we can do those things. Well, then the primary mechanism God created immediately for that image to be born and carried over is through relationships at home. It's how he created us. He said, right after he made us in his image, he said, be fruitful and multiply. And then for the rest of the scripture, that's what you see. Genesis 5, the lineage of Adam, it says, Seth is made in the image of Adam. Obviously he didn't lose the image of God, but what he is, he's reflecting the nature of his dad. And that's a very deeply emotional thing. I mentioned briefly a while ago, you get to Deuteronomy 5 and the second command that says, don't make another image. don't even worship the right God the wrong way. And then he says, that's the one of all things. He says, I, the Lord your God, I'm a jealous God. Why that one? Well, because God's already given us an image, if you will. In other words, if we want to see what he's like, we should be able to look at the reflection of the best parts of his creation in humanity. And I think that's why that's the first command with a curse. If you mess this up, it's going to impact the next generation. The next generation. The next generation. Which brings it all the way back to the. Go ahead.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, I was just gonna say. I'll hold your. Right there. We're at our next break. It brings us all the way back to. Don't go away. We'll talk about that after this break. But again, we'll provide you more help and hope because as we understand these things, we can better respond to them and create a generational legacy of, blessing. And I think that's something that we all want and we all can get on board with. I'll be right back with more from Dr. Ryan Rush.
There is a great deal of emphasis on human wisdom in evangelical circles
Here's Pastor Erwin Lutzer from the American Family Studios documentary the God who Speaks.
Pastor Erwin Lutzer: You know, so often I see even in evangelical circles where you have a great deal of emphasis on human wisdom now that human wisdom sometimes is right. For example, human wisdom can diagnose certain problems that people have psychologically and so forth. The problem is human wisdom does not have an answer to the deep needs of the soul. What we need to do is to get back to the Bible. Do we begin to think in human terms as to how problems can be solved? Or do we come to God seeking his wisdom so that the answers that we have for human need and human conflict are truly biblical? Visit thegodwhospeaks.org.
God I'm Just Grateful by Chandler Moore and Elevation Worship: Grace upon grace. Hallelujah. Even though I don't deserve it, you did it. Even though I couldn't earn it, you give it. Who am I that you keep me on your. Oh my God, I'm just grateful for you God, I'm just grateful for you. Oh my God. You been right here by my side. God, I'm just grateful for you God, I'm just grateful for you.
Dr. Ryan Rush talks about attachment theory
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is God. I'm, just grateful by Chandler Moore and Elevation Worship. But I'm so grateful that you're here today listening. I'm grateful for Dr. Ryan Rush, Pastor of Kingsland Baptist Church, just outside of Houston, Texas. And he is talking about attachment theory. Now, this is a psychological theory that says basically what we experience as an attachment as infants to our parents, the way that attachment is healthy or unhealthy can wire our brains for the way that we respond all the way through our lives. And sometimes we just don't even realize this. but our experiences deeply matter. They shape us. They can be good and they can be harmful, but they do not get the final word about who we are. And that's what I find encouraging about a redemptive God, that even in a world that is broken by our own sin, he gives us a pattern, a pathway, path for healing and redemption. And part of that is through seeing and understanding things like attachment theory, understanding the ways in which that propels us to act, as Dr. Rush has already shared either primarily, usually when we're talking about attachment theory, through anxious attachment, where you think that, you know, you're looking, seeing I'm unworthy of love, or an avoidant attachment, where you're thinking, no one's going to be there for me. Like, I. I'm just alone. And. But we can unlearn and relearn healthy ways of attachment. And, Ryan you were just telling us the consequences of the broken world and just about to break into the good news, so I'd love to get it to you right back there.
Dr. Ryan Rush: Oh, thank you, Jessica. So I mentioned the second command and the reality that, those iniquities will be visited on the third and fourth generation. I think sometimes that's been seen as generational curses and some other things. And there's some other theological questions. From the most practical standpoint, if I only witness an aspect of God's nature, whether it's holiness or love or faithfulness or kindness or grace, from a, An imperfect. Or, of course, we're all broken, but. But a, demented way. That's all I'm going to know. And so, of course, that's going to be how that image is processed, because we grow through relationships, attachments. But I love the end of that passage in Deuteronomy 5:10 that says, but visiting the blessings to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. And so there's something so much better at the end. So I believe that no matter the story of anybody's past, God can bring redemption and healing, and that the blessing is far greater than the curse.
A large part of how we lead is based on our upbringing, Ryan says
Dr. Jessica Peck: You saw this when you were doing your dissertation research, Ryan You saw a really encouraging, beautiful story that I heard you share about the pastors you researched. And I'D love for you to share it with my listeners.
Dr. Ryan Rush: Absolutely. So, in a nutshell, what I did in my research is I, I interviewed and used, a couple of testing instruments, pastors on four continents. So I talked to pastors in Brazil, in Uganda, in Cambodia, and then in the US And I wanted to understand, as best as they could tell, using an instrument, what their attachment, relationships were in the earliest part of their memories of their lives. And then I tested them, related to leadership style, to understand how are these pastors leading hundreds of pastors. And I did it across the globe because I wanted to understand if this is just a uniquely Western thing or American thing, or if it's truly universal and I believe biblical. And, of course, what didn't surprise me is that, yes, an enormous part of how we lead as adults is born out of those early years that does surprise a lot of people in maybe the leadership field, because we spend billions every year on leadership development. And it turns out a large part of how we lead is just how we were raised at home. The ultimate leadership. The picture is a mom and dad at home. So moms and dads, you are the flagship leaders in your children's lives. And so remember that.
The biggest surprise of my dissertation was related to Cambodian pastors
The best part, I, guess the biggest surprise of my dissertation was related to these pastors in Cambodia. And if you study any history, you know about the Khmer Rouge, it wasn't that many decades ago that Pol Pot came in and he brought in the communist regime and he slaughtered an entire generation of Cambodians when he did this to bring in this new regime. Most of what he was slaughtering was in Phnom Penh, where most of these pastors were serving that I interviewed. So a lot of them grew up in this generation where they lost mom or dad or both, at least aunts and uncles. So they grew up in bloodshed. Even worse, this new government would take the children out of the homes for at least a period of time and put them in learning groups to kind of create a communist family, if you will. It's just a horrible picture. They would make the boys and girls dress the same, have the same haircuts, because they didn't want them to have any individual identity and they wanted the, the nation or the government to be the parents. I mean, how sick is that? You think that might impact your, your attachment? So it wasn't a surprise that Cambodian pastors had some of the most egregious stories in their, their accounts of their attachment style early on. A lot of them had very Very difficult time learning how to relate. But what was remarkable is, the Cambodian pastors had a disproportionate number of transformational leaders which didn't make any sense. How could these end up having, so many who came out who were great leaders? And the answer, I believe was almost all of the Cambodian pastors are first generation Christians. Like the Lord has done this work just in the last 25, 30 years of raising up a church there of people who are in love with the Lord Jesus, who love the word of God. And so because of that, they have had a front row seat to the gospel, to grace, to really understanding how God sees them. And so they've been able to replace some of those internal working models or the lies the enemies told them about how to have healthy relationships. And they've learned to have real relationship with the Lord. The Lord has literally renewed their minds just like he did Joseph in the Old Testament. And it's just an incredible gracious model God has given all of us. And I hope an encouragement to anybody who says, well, it's too late for me, because it's not.
Dr. Jessica Peck: When we think about what they must have experienced, it is, it's, it's kind of sad, honestly, Ryan because we think, you know, well, like what you said at the beginning, well, I wish my dad had been at the game. And that's not to diminish the emotional impact because our own experience is our own experience and brokenness is brokenness. But I think your point is that even in the midst of unimaginable brokenness, of just egregious, awful brokenness, that hope rises from the ashes. And if hope can flourish there, hope can flourish in your home too. And so, Brian, what would you say to people who are thinking, okay, this is really new information to me. I, I'm not sure what I'm thinking about this or how this relates. What would you encourage them as next steps to consider? Maybe how attachment theory might be impacting the way that they're currently relating in their family and what that practically means to them.
Dr. Ryan Rush: Sure. So first thing I'd say to moms and dads is make sure you're investing time. The, the answer for cultivating relationships isn't some exercise that you do. It's more about quantities of time in the presence of one another where you are knowing them and they are known, you're known, you're known by them and you know them.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Them.
Dr. Ryan Rush: That's, that's so natural. It really goes back to, some research I did a couple of years ago on the table. I mean, the most natural place God has given us to allow this to happen is having meaningful meal times with the ones you love on multiple days a week, sitting across the table from them, making eye contact, putting the technology away and, and doing that because that allows you to do something that's not manufactured. The unspoken messages are, I believe in you, I love you, and I value you enough to set everything else aside and be with you. There's nothing that can take the place of that. The other thing I'd say is to recognize that we're all trying to navigate a broken world and we're all dealing with those mixed messages. And so if we can, afford grace, I think that's more in the context of maybe marriage and teenagers to say, have some understanding and know that they're going through some stuff as well. we've adapted a, three word phrase in our family that I, I don't remember where I got this from. I don't think it's original to me. But sad, mad, bad. It sounds like Dr. Seuss, but our core emotions are really about sadness most of the time. We can, we, if we don't deal with our sadness, then we tend to get mad. That's just, we're more natural. We can manifest that. And then of course, scripture has all sorts of things to say about when we don't deal with our anger and we let the sun go down on our anger, then we get too bad. So we go from sad to mad to bad. And when we get to bad, we feel like, you hurt me, so I want to hurt you. Hopefully not physically, but you want to bring harm to others because they've harmed your heart. And so if you can ever get back to that core of, saying, wait a second, what am I sad about? Let's address that. That's something you can deal with. Because Jesus told us, blessed are those who mourn, for they'll be comforted. We can deal with grief. And likewise, if we can be in the presence of conflict and what have you and say, wait a second, let's deal with the same sad, mad, bad principle and say, what are they sad about? Where's the broken heart that needs to be addressed now we have a place where healing can happen. And that's a beautiful place in the home.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is a beautiful place. It really is. And, that's a really simple explanation. But honestly, that's where I find in the grace of God in science. And some of these things are remarkably simple. When we boil Them down. Really what we're talking about even here today.
Having a conversation with your family about childhood trauma can help heal trauma
For me, a starting point might be Ryan just having a conversation with your family about it. It's really interesting, you know, like when. When you marry somebody, they come in and they look at your family with outside eyes. They see things that you don't see at all. And even your children who are growing up, and they see two different families of origin, and they see, you know, this family handles things this way, this family handles things this, this way. I feel like it gives them a more balanced perspective, you know, and they can see the ways that you're impacted by your childhood that maybe you just don't want to think about or that you think it's. That's just normal. And when we grow up, it's almost like we, we get a pair of glasses, you know, and that's how we see the world. And then maybe our kids, our spouses are wearing a different pair of glasses. We're looking at the same thing. But, you know, my glasses are purple tinted. Their glasses are blue tinted, you know, and they're like, no, it's purple. Purple. It's blue. It's purple, it's blue. So sometimes just being able to have that honest conversation, I know, you know, I experienced a lot of generational trauma and childhood trauma, and sometimes, you know, my kids can respectfully say, mama, that's your trauma talking. Because, you know, we're from Texas, so we got a little Texas dwang in there. But they'll say, that's your trauma talking. I'll have to stop and really think, like, is it. Do I. Do I really need it? Maybe that is. Maybe that's. Maybe I need to be humble enough to think, yeah, maybe that is impacting the way I'm seeing this.
Dr. Ryan Rush: I think along those same lines. It's so important. What you're saying is that one of the most powerful things you can do to cement the attachment relationship you have with your kids is to apologize, you know, because then you. You take away the spark of, or the. The lies that the enemy can bring in related to whatever event. Like bad things happen and something amazing happens when you sit down with your child of whatever age and say, listen, I want you to know, you know, dad. Dad blew up there, and that wasn't of God, you know, that was just in the flesh. I had a bad moment. I want you to know I'm sorry, but it's not the way I want to handle things. And so I want you to know the truth is, I love you. And value you and, and I came across the wrong way. There's, there's, there are a few more powerful moments you're going to have as a parent than when you do that.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Because healthy families rupture and repair. Healthy families aren't perfect. They don't get past this and think, oh well, we're perfect. We have no attachment issues. They, they learn to rupture and repair. And, and when we do that, we model a healthy relationship with God because we're going to sin for the rest of our lives, right?
Dr. Ryan Rush: M. That's really true. So self awareness isn't the goal of, of life. We've talked a lot about self awareness. That's not the goal. But it's really hard to lead others well, or parent others well, or be married to somebody if you're not self aware of why you're doing what you're doing, of the belief systems behind that. And it's really hard to get healing if you're not honest about it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, if you are out there listening and you are interested in hearing more, you can listen online at Kingsland Baptist Church to this series that Dr. Rush is going to have about Joseph. And I thank you so much for listening today. Ultimately we were made for relationship. We were made with connection, for connection with one another and ultimately with God. And that means what you're doing at home matters, how you're raising your kids matter. The way you listen, the way you respond, the way you apologize, the way that you show up consistently, the way that you communicate, and the way you rupture and repair. All of these things are normal parts of healthy families that aren't perfect because. And Christian parenting isn't about creating the perfect family that's ready for social media. We cannot control everything our kids will experience, but we can continue to grow in the likeness of Jesus. We can tell our kids they're loved. We can. That they can speak honestly about what is happening in their homes. And there is hope. No matter what kind of brokenness you came from, there is always hope for renewal and restoration and wherever you are in that, family journey and guiding your family, I pray as I always do, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you and give you peace. Also, if you want to Hear More from Dr. Rush, you can get a copy of his book Restore the Table. A great place to start strengthening your family right around your dinner table. Try it out. I'll see you right back here tomorrow. We'd like to thank our sponsors, including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR
Jeff Chamblee: The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
More than 80% of abortion vulnerable women choose life after seeing ultrasound
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Dr. Jessica Peck prescribes Hope for healthy families on American Family Radio
preborn.com/AFR hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing Hope for healthy families here on Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day getting to spend time with you guys prescribing Hope for healthy families. And listen, I am really excited about today's show. Today we have a great blend of science and faith for you and you know that is a space and intersection that I really love to hang out on. And on this show we talk a lot about family. That is really my mission is to prescribe hope for healthy families, not for perfect families because no such family exists. But in that context we talk about Things like parenting and marriage and discipline and communication and have healthy habits for healthy homes. We talk about that every Friday.
Attachment theory explores how early relationships shape our expectations about safety and trust
But underneath so much of that is really a deeper question in our families, do we feel safe and known and loved and connected to the people that are closest to us? And that question takes us into the world of science and attachment theory. Now, for those of you who are not familiar, attachment theory emerged from developmental and psychological research that examines how our earliest relationships, particularly relationships with our primary caregivers as we're born and grow through childhood, how do those relationship shape our expectations about safety and trust and connection and relationships. Now, over time, researchers have identified patterns of attachment that influence how people respond to closeness, how they respond to conflict, how they respond to rejection and separation and vulnerability. And while attachment theory is a psychological framework rather than a biblical doctrine, it raises some profoundly important questions for Christian families. What happens when a child's earliest experiences of relationship communicate that the world isn't safe? What does that m mean? Looking at that through a biblical lens, how do attachment wounds affect the very daily interactions that adults have as they parent, as they look m in marriage, as they lead, as they relate to others? And can the wounds we experience in human relationships and influence the way we understand God? I'll give you a spoiler alert. The answer is yes. But really, what does scripture have to say? That's what we're going to look about. What does scripture have to say about the human need for connection and security and belonging and redemption? And how does that fit in this attachment theory framework?
Today's conversation brings together science and theology through a pastor
Now, today's conversation, as I said, is bringing together science and theology through a pastor. Our guest today is not a stranger to the show. We welcome back Dr. Ryan Rush. He is pastor of Kingsland Baptist Church in Katy, Texas. And Ryan has spent decades in ministry and made connecting church and home life essential part of his calling. You may remember him being on the show before about his book, which I highly, highly recommend, called Restore the Table, talking about family meals together and the science behind that. And he has really become a national voice for the faith at home movement and taught theology of the family. But there's another reason this conversation is really fascinating to me. Dr. Rush's doctoral research examine the relationship between childhood attachment style and the leadership style of senior pastors across culture. And that is really, that was really curious to me. So I got lots of questions. And today we're going to explore attachment not just as that psychological construct, but as a framework that can help us understand our own families and our parenting and our marriage and we're going to be really thoughtful about looking at it from both sides. Ryan, so glad to have you back here. Thank you so much for joining us, Jessica.
Dr. Ryan Rush: It's always a pleasure to be on. And when you sent out the request that we talk about this, I got really excited. So I, look forward to this conversation.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Me too. I'm telling you, I was taking notes so fast while you were talking. My paper was catching fire because I'm like, yes, yes and amen.
Can you explain attachment theory in simple terms for everyday people?
So let's start at the beginning. Let's talk about the phrase attachment theory because I think already some people are like, okay, this sounds maybe boring or a little weird, but it is really not. Can you explain it in simple terms and why it matters for everyday people?
Dr. Ryan Rush: Absolutely. In fact we see this all the time, don't we? That science makes a quote, discovery that the scripture has said all along. There is nothing more true than the science of attachment theory that has really gained traction over the last 50 years in the field of psychology. My passion, my heartbeat is the family recognizing that the home is the primary place of discipleship that God has ordained. And so we take that aim at the family. But this is given a, ah, language that allows me to have a conversation in the broader, spectrum of academia, but also to better understand and put a name to some things that God said all along in a course that we see. So emotion, rather attachment is quite simply our God given emotional connection to one another. That's it. we all know inherently that that is true. But science has shown that this is not just a luxury that we are connected to people, but we desperately need that. And so I would add one element to that. We have a God given emotional connection to other people, beginning with our parents and those early caregivers that ends up impacting all the other relationships that we have. And so before a child can explain anything about relationships, they are already asking questions. Am I safe? Am I loved? Will somebody come when I have a need? And so from our earliest days we're asking those questions and receiving the answers through the cues that we get from our parents. And so here's what's especially interesting about attachment. I think in light of the family and in light of so many narratives in scripture, but, but also just everyday life is that we don't leave those lessons behind when we turn 18. It's not just something that we connect with our parents over. It impacts all of our other relationships, how we lead, how we parent.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Later on, you know, when you're talking, I'M thinking of the proverbial, you know, therapy couch. And, and the therapist is taking notes. And it's like it all goes back to my mother. But there is some tr. The fact that there are generational patterns there. And I think, you know, Ryan there may be people out there who are in the middle of raising their families. They're in their 30s or 40s or 50s, and they're thinking, you know what? I didn't have a great childhood. I didn't have a great attachment. But, I've gotten past that. Like, how is that impacting me now? But you'd be surprised at how much we are developmentally wired for healthy connection and how much physiologically happens to us to create preferred neural pathways in our brain that are unhealthy in attachment when we don't have that healthy attachment.
An unhealthy attachment impacts the way that we conduct relationships for our lifetime
So can you talk about what healthy attachment looks like and what happens? Why an unhealthy attachment, even as children, from a biblical lens, impacts the way that we conduct relationships for our lifetime.
Dr. Ryan Rush: Right. And so I want to encourage, your listeners that we're not going to put them to sleep today, really aren't with a bunch of scientific stuff, because this is all so inherently true. We all recognize this. Anybody who's ever dropped a child off at the nursery has seen attachment wound when a child cries and longs for mom or dad in that moment. So we see that. But when we say, what are we looking for in a healthy attachment? You could summarize that in two words, security and freedom. And those work hand in hand. You know, we think about it. That's how God created us. So he created us to have relationship, to be in relationship. But he also said go. So he empowered us to go into impact and to have an impact on the world around us. And so both of those things are born out of relationships. So if I have a healthy relationship with my parents as a child, and I know I can run to them when I'm in danger, but I also know, conversely, that I can run from them with the knowledge that someone is behind me and cheering me on so I can go do what I need to do, that's it. That's how, our attachment system is wired in our brains. And the more we know from research, the more we see this is true. And of course, we see that all through the word of God.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, there's specific ways that we respond when we have a wound and that attachment when we don't have that healthy attachment. And I'll say there are a lot of Families, Ryan whose parents are very well intentioned, but just ill equipped to overcome patterns of generational trauma and they, and dysfunction. And so they just, you know, they do this a lot of times without being ill intentioned. It's just the way that they learned and the way that they view the world and they think it's normal, but it does profoundly impact us. And when you start looking at the characteristics, I feel like so many people will see themselves in this picture.
Dr. Ryan Rush: Yes. So when we, when we understand how the wounds happen, it's not as though going back to your early analogy of it's so good of laying on a therapy couch. That's not what we're doing. We're just recognizing that our childhoods impacted us. And in small part the conversation that we're having, our parents or our caregivers are sitting behind us, you know, for good or for bad, like what we learned and how we learned whether we could be safe or what we could say and all those things. And so, we need to understand that wounds, when we use that term, we're just talking about things that are events or sometimes non events. So there are things that shouldn't have happened. That happened. I mean, we live in a broken world and since the fall of Adam and Eve, here we are. And so things happen that shouldn't happen. And so we recognize there's ramifications that take place, that we read about in the Ten Commandments, the second command, you know, don't make another image. I, the Lord am a jealous God and will visit, the iniquity on the third and fourth generation. We see that. I think that has to do with attachment. But we also know that there are non events, things that should have happened that didn't happen, you know, and they don't all have to be incredibly traumatic. Some really are very sad, but they can be. You know, I just wish my dad had been there for the game, you know, and wasn't, for any of the games or the stories we hear that it just sets like something didn't take place that they wish had taken place. That can impact that and wound. The only reason I don't like that word is it sounds like, well, it's just, it's permanent. We can't deal with it. God can heal whatever that wound is. I, absolutely believe that. And that's one of the great things about really understanding and unpacking what's happening here. Say, oh, wait a second, there can be healing.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Absolutely. Because that's the hope in all of this just as we're wired for attachment and there's consequences when the family doesn't follow God's design. You know, we see that in brokenness. But we serve a God of restoration and renewal and who loves to make broken things beautiful and that is the hope in all of this.
We have an anxious attachment or an avoidant attachment
And I want you to talk about the different kinds of ways that that manifests in adulthood, Ryan where we have an anxious attachment or an avoidant attachment. And as we're doing that I'm going to tell people, if you're listening with your spouse, don't start pointing fingers and say oh that's you, that's you. But really look and see is it you? can you find yourself in one of these and one of these characters?
Dr. Ryan Rush: Absolutely. And so you, you mentioned the two primary categories that often come out. Of course we start with secure attachment. The majority of people we deal with have, you know, you're going to have moments of insecurity. But we live in security because of the blessing that our parents gave us. And incidentally, parents don't have to be perfect in order to have secure attachment be built. God gave us a lot of grace there. When we talk about anxious attachment, we're talking about a child early on who somehow gets the idea if I'm going to get the love that I need from my par, I'm going to have to work really hard for that. I'm going to have to over perform, I'm going to have to cry more than you could possibly imagine in order to get their attention, things like that. And so what they learn is kind of a hidden lie that I'm not worthy. And so I'm going to have to really work to perform. So what happens sometimes in adulthood if somebody deals with an insecure attachment is they, they, they attach themselves to ah, other relations in unhealthy ways and almost adamant and in neurotic ways to use that sounds too negative but just this, this sense of desperation. And all of us know when you're in a relationship and somebody appears desperate or clingy that doesn't. It generally makes you want to repel so it can actually against them and then you have a cycle. So anxious attachment will be this, this this overt clingy sense of desperation in order to attain the relationships that we need. When you talk about avoidant attachment it's not exactly the opposite of that but what we're saying is go back to childhood. A child cries and cries and cries and cries and doesn't get the help they need. And then they, they start realizing, wait, the more I cry, it doesn't matter what I do. my parents are not going to come. It's an extreme example, but they start to learn that their normal social cues that are inherited in the heart of a child, to try to get attention, to cry or to reach out and do these things when they're put off long enough and they learn it doesn't work. And so when there is crisis, instead of running or clinging or even doing the safe thing of saying, I need you, they actually turn away. So the time when we need relationships the most, during crisis, they would separate themselves. And so we've all been around people where, when times get hard, let's say in a marriage or in a crisis or an argument, what they do is shut down, move away at the very time they need to.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm gonna hold you right there, Dr. Rush. We are going to be right back after this break and we're going to break this down down and show you how it can show up in your relationships, but more importantly, what you can do about it. It's all part of God's design and he gives us hope and grace in a broken world. We'll explore more of that with Ryan Rush when we come back right after this break. Don't go away.
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God Is in This Story by Big Daddy Weave and Katy Nichole : Words that tell me I'm, no good chapters that define me for so long but the hands of grace and endless love dusted off and picked me up Told my heart that hope is never gone God is in this story God is in the details Even in the broken hearts he holds my heart he never fails When I'm at my weakest I will trust in Jesus always in the heart Knows the one who goes before me God is in. This, this story.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is God is in this story by Big Daddy Weave. And as we're talking about God being in your story, he is in your story. Maybe your story is one of, ah, family brokenness. Maybe you have generational dysfunction. Maybe you're struggling in that. Maybe you are working to make a new way. We're talking today to Dr. Ryan Rush. He's the pastor of Kingsland Baptist Church in Texas, and his dissertation was actually on attachment theory, which is a psychological framework to understand really what he has. He said what scripture has told us for a long time, since the beginning of time. How God designed the family to be, how God designed us to attach to our parents, and what happens in a broken world with broken attachment. And a lot of us, we think, okay, we don't want to rely on our past and think, okay, we're just going to sit in that pain. But it does give us a helpful framework for understanding why we do some of the things. Things we do, why we think, the ways that we think, why we respond intuitively, some of the ways that we respond. And recognizing those things is really important in fixing generational dysfunction. Because sometimes what I see is a lot of families with generational dysfunction, they have a really specific negative influence. There's a story of addiction or abuse or divorce or other forms of really outwardly clear brokenness. But sometimes it's just being emotionally absent. It's just being physically or mentally absent. It's being emotionally unresponsive. And those impact the ways that our brains develop at a young age, as Dr. Rush was just describing, and those patterns become deeply ingrained. We have to recognize those patterns, unlearn and relearn healthy ways of relating. And, Ryan you were just in the middle of talking about the different kinds of attachment wounds that can happen. The two primary ones, course, you know, we can branch out, from there, but we were talking about anxious attachment, basically thinking, growing up. Think having someone not meet your needs, and thinking, okay, I'm not worthy of love, so I have to try really hard. I have to work really hard. I have to be really good. I have to be really funny. I have to be really present. I have to be really needy. I have to, like, say, look at me. I need. I need help, because I'm. I'm not just gonna get it. And then we have the avoidant attachment, which says, like, that core of that is, no one's going to be there for me but me. I've got to take care of myself. Nobody else is going to show up, so I got to depend on myself. And if that means pushing people away, so I'm going to give it to you right back there and. And let you continue on.
Dr. Ryan Rush: Sure. Thanks, Jessica. So if anxious attachment is reduced to a message of I'm not worthy, you could imagine that avoidant attachment is really reduced to the point, they're not able. And that's That's a sad place to be. In other words, they're really not going to be able to meet my needs. And so there's a defeatist, attitude there. And so you can understand with either those ideas in your mind how they could really mess with the rest of your relationships for your whole life. And very often they're not even true with regard to your parents. It's just. It's not necessarily what's taking place. It's how you perceive what's taking place. And that's why I love what you just said, Jessica, that these attachment wounds can be changed. We have. We are deeply wired in our brains. We understand that. And once again, we go back to science and theology because, Paul said so long ago, be transformed by the renewing of your minds. And now we know through the science of neuroplasticity, your mind can change, like, you can literally change your belief system in this regard and bring it back to healthy relationships.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And these, the ways that we process this, the, attachment that we have, the ways that we see our parent, we know it does reflect the way that we view God. If we have an emotionally unavailable father, it's very easy to transfer those characteristics to your relationship with God. So how do we, how do we have a balance here that's healthy? Ryan how do we recognize the ways that attachment woundedness may impact us while not sitting there and just like, blaming people or just, like, you know, saying our parents were terrible? Like, how do we recognize that and move forward in a hopeful way?
Dr. Ryan Rush: Yes, that's so important, Jessica, because explanation is not the same thing as excuse. It's not really going to help us to say, okay, we just found out that my parents weren't there for this, or I did thus and so, and so, therefore, that's why I do this. No, you don't get to say that. We have to take ownership of our own decisions and our sin and repent of those sins. this is not what it's about. But to be able to understand why we behave in a certain way will allow us to then redeem those things. And even better for those who are married to understand maybe why our spouses act in a certain way. To say, wait a second, rather than saying, why are you this way? To say, well, what happened to you? Because maybe we can, Maybe we can unpack these things better. And that goes for all our relationships.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, and often, you know, people have heard the phrase opposites attract, and it gives me a little chuckle because I think, yes, often, people with Anxious, anxious. Avoidance. Marry, dismissive avoidance. You know, you can have that, that opposite attract.
How do you see those attachment wounds manifesting themselves in marriage?
How do you see those attachment wounds manifesting themselves in marriage?
Dr. Ryan Rush: Well, I don't know that there's any mechanism that God has created on earth that more quickly brings out the challenges in personality than marriage. Right? So we learn real quickly that we live in a broken world when we get into marriage. And so if you can understand maybe why these things are tr. they're not necessarily all bad. It might be, hey, wait, you know, my wife might need a little bit more space when we're having a disagreement before we engage or find resolution. And she's not communicating to me. She doesn't care. She's just, she needs me to tone down the, let's just solve this right now. So sometimes it just brings explanation. And the, the, the strategy I think is to, to not bring back childhood. Every time you have a problem or an argument with your spouse or an issue with children or anything else, it's to say, okay, if I can understand how I tend to be just a self awareness of how I'm doing this, and then I have, something, a wording of how I think and operate and then I can measure that against the word of God. Well, that's the first step to healing for a Christian. Right? Because then we can say, well, what does God say about who I am, what he's called me to be and how I can respond? And then I can act out of obedience rather than always emotion or fear.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And you know, when we think about the ways that we respond in attachment, often, you know, we think that our way of seeing the world is the best way, is the normal way. Because when you grow up a certain way, you're like, we just don't talk about our feelings. Like, why, why are you wanting to like come back around this and talk about it a million times? Or you know, the family that's saying, hey, you know, you're just sweeping everything under the rug. You're not talking about it at all. How, how do we step back with some humility and recognize that we may be wired to think in ways that really we didn't even realize was happening, but this was a foundation that was laid in childhood that, that impacts how we see the world. How do we step back with humility and recognize, okay, not everybody sees the world this way, and this may not be the right or wrong way to see the world. It's just the reality of the way I see the world.
Dr. Ryan Rush: Right. Well, my first answer, my first Instinct is to give you such a preacher answer, But I am a pastor. The more we look at the Word of God, the more we recognize, okay, that's the gold standard. My experience or my reactions or my way are not the gold standard. The standard is what God has called us to do. And so, you know, it's amazing how that kind of clarifies how we move forward on some of these elements. But if once we define how we're doing things, then we can say, well, wait a second. Why do I do this? And the fancy term in attachment theory is internal working model. It's just basically the narrative that we tell ourselves whether it's true or not. So we say, oh, you know, what? This, happened. And so, you know, my wife's mad at me, and so therefore, I must have done something horribly wrong, or I must not be lovable, or I need to perform in order to do this, or, I've been rejected because before any of those happen to say, wait a second, what is true? Who is God, and what is true? And if I go back to what is true, and it allows me to say, okay, maybe I have four or five key scriptures that I write down that I know are true of, who God is, and I want to be more like him. He's the model. And all of a sudden, God can redeem those reactions and I can respond instead. You know, there's a big difference between. Between responding and reacting. Any inanimate object can react, but responding comes from a, well of wisdom. Or, look at what God has to say and say, okay, next time this happens. Even though I may have been wired as a child in a certain way, it's not the same as a personality type. You know, it can be changed. Say, I'm going to try in obedience to God to respond in this way. And the more I do that, I'm going to recognize, hey, wait a second. When we go by God's design in our relationships, then the response generally that we get back is more healthy and stable, and it allows us to cultivate deeper relationships.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, every Friday we talk about a healthy habit for healthy families. And we did four core spiritual disciplines. And then we went through rhythms, six rhythms. And then, communication patterns. And one of those communication habits I had was exactly that. Ryan was. Was choosing to respond instead of react. Because we are, you know, developmentally wired. And. And there's so many things that just lead into our reaction that's just instant, like we just go on autopilot. But there's Something really biblical about taking that autopilot off and being really thoughtful and intentional about the ways that we respond and that we choose to respond. And that goes to Scripture. You know, every. Be quick to listen and slow to speak and slow to become angry. And often those that anger, that talking, that, you know, not listening, that talking over, those are all things we're wired to react in a broken world. And you said you were going to give a pastor response, but, I'll.
What can we learn about Joseph and his life and attachment theory?
I'll give you an invitation to do that even more, Ryan because just during the break, you and I were talking about the character of Joseph, because sometimes, you know, we think, well, what does the Bible have to say about, you know, about these issues? Well, the Bible is pretty much from Genesis to Revelation, almost a, story of dysfunctional families.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It's.
Dr. Jessica Peck: There are a lot of those, and Joseph is one of those. What can we learn about Joseph and his life and attachment theory?
Dr. Ryan Rush: Yes, I mentioned that I'm about to preach a series from Genesis 37 to 50 at my church just, outside of Houston, for that very reason. Because you. I'm not sure that you could come up with a more dysfunctional family than what Joseph came from. You know, he lost his mom at an early age. He had step parents in really odd ways. he favoritism. He had a dad with irrational favoritism. He had brothers that hated him and sold him slavery. He was falsely accused of adultery. And you go on and on. But in those early days, he really had a lot of, you know, terrible examples, to be honest. I mean, there were times when Jacob was way off the reservation. And of course, later on in his life, God redeemed that and brought him back. But Joseph was able not only to. To make it through what he'd been through, but the Lord actually redeemed all those experiences to make him a great leader. I don't know that he would have been able to do what he did apart from what he went through. And that's why he could say Genesis 50, verse 20. I believe what you meant for evil, God meant for good. And that's the beauty of whatever attachment experience you had as a child. God can redeem it and actually use some of those challenges that you had to maybe make you, more, compassionate or, have more fortitude as a leader, more staying power. There's all sorts of things that we see that play out when God redeems that. And that was really the heart of my dissertation and why I enjoyed it so much. As much as you can enjoy A dissertation, absolutely.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And the end of that part of the verse, as, you know, what you intended for evil, God intended for good, for the saving of many lives. And sometimes it can be so hard, Ryan for us to understand in a broken world why God allows these things to happen. And there may be people thinking, yeah, I had a terrible childhood and I've overcome a lot of that and I'm a much better person. And. But really there's a higher hope and a higher calling than that. There's a higher healing than that, rather than just what can we can rely on ourselves to do? And that's, I think that's why the self help industry is just booming right now, because people experience adversity and then they want to rely on themselves. How can we call ourselves and submit to a higher calling and a higher hope than that?
Dr. Ryan Rush: That's such a good question. You know, so going back to science to I think undergird what you're asking with regard to the scripture, one of the amazing things about attachment science that we've discovered just over the last 10 years, a number of studies have shown that an infant or toddler actually borrows the nervous system of mom and dad. So in other words, they can't, they're not capable of processing feelings. And so they borrow the, the, the peace or the relaxation or the stress, unfortunately, of mom. So they can actually take on that nervous system and those feelings at that time. And I think it goes all the way Back to Genesis 1. We've been made in the image of God, at least in part of that image, we've been made in his likeness. So God's character is reflected in us. He's faithful, we can be faithful. He's gracious, he's loving, he's good, he's kind, he's holy. And we can do those things. Well, then the primary mechanism God created immediately for that image to be born and carried over is through relationships at home. It's how he created us. He said, right after he made us in his image, he said, be fruitful and multiply. And then for the rest of the scripture, that's what you see. Genesis 5, the lineage of Adam, it says, Seth is made in the image of Adam. Obviously he didn't lose the image of God, but what he is, he's reflecting the nature of his dad. And that's a very deeply emotional thing. I mentioned briefly a while ago, you get to Deuteronomy 5 and the second command that says, don't make another image. don't even worship the right God the wrong way. And then he says, that's the one of all things. He says, I, the Lord your God, I'm a jealous God. Why that one? Well, because God's already given us an image, if you will. In other words, if we want to see what he's like, we should be able to look at the reflection of the best parts of his creation in humanity. And I think that's why that's the first command with a curse. If you mess this up, it's going to impact the next generation. The next generation. The next generation. Which brings it all the way back to the. Go ahead.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, I was just gonna say. I'll hold your. Right there. We're at our next break. It brings us all the way back to. Don't go away. We'll talk about that after this break. But again, we'll provide you more help and hope because as we understand these things, we can better respond to them and create a generational legacy of, blessing. And I think that's something that we all want and we all can get on board with. I'll be right back with more from Dr. Ryan Rush.
There is a great deal of emphasis on human wisdom in evangelical circles
Here's Pastor Erwin Lutzer from the American Family Studios documentary the God who Speaks.
Pastor Erwin Lutzer: You know, so often I see even in evangelical circles where you have a great deal of emphasis on human wisdom now that human wisdom sometimes is right. For example, human wisdom can diagnose certain problems that people have psychologically and so forth. The problem is human wisdom does not have an answer to the deep needs of the soul. What we need to do is to get back to the Bible. Do we begin to think in human terms as to how problems can be solved? Or do we come to God seeking his wisdom so that the answers that we have for human need and human conflict are truly biblical? Visit thegodwhospeaks.org.
God I'm Just Grateful by Chandler Moore and Elevation Worship: Grace upon grace. Hallelujah. Even though I don't deserve it, you did it. Even though I couldn't earn it, you give it. Who am I that you keep me on your. Oh my God, I'm just grateful for you God, I'm just grateful for you. Oh my God. You been right here by my side. God, I'm just grateful for you God, I'm just grateful for you.
Dr. Ryan Rush talks about attachment theory
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is God. I'm, just grateful by Chandler Moore and Elevation Worship. But I'm so grateful that you're here today listening. I'm grateful for Dr. Ryan Rush, Pastor of Kingsland Baptist Church, just outside of Houston, Texas. And he is talking about attachment theory. Now, this is a psychological theory that says basically what we experience as an attachment as infants to our parents, the way that attachment is healthy or unhealthy can wire our brains for the way that we respond all the way through our lives. And sometimes we just don't even realize this. but our experiences deeply matter. They shape us. They can be good and they can be harmful, but they do not get the final word about who we are. And that's what I find encouraging about a redemptive God, that even in a world that is broken by our own sin, he gives us a pattern, a pathway, path for healing and redemption. And part of that is through seeing and understanding things like attachment theory, understanding the ways in which that propels us to act, as Dr. Rush has already shared either primarily, usually when we're talking about attachment theory, through anxious attachment, where you think that, you know, you're looking, seeing I'm unworthy of love, or an avoidant attachment, where you're thinking, no one's going to be there for me. Like, I. I'm just alone. And. But we can unlearn and relearn healthy ways of attachment. And, Ryan you were just telling us the consequences of the broken world and just about to break into the good news, so I'd love to get it to you right back there.
Dr. Ryan Rush: Oh, thank you, Jessica. So I mentioned the second command and the reality that, those iniquities will be visited on the third and fourth generation. I think sometimes that's been seen as generational curses and some other things. And there's some other theological questions. From the most practical standpoint, if I only witness an aspect of God's nature, whether it's holiness or love or faithfulness or kindness or grace, from a, An imperfect. Or, of course, we're all broken, but. But a, demented way. That's all I'm going to know. And so, of course, that's going to be how that image is processed, because we grow through relationships, attachments. But I love the end of that passage in Deuteronomy 5:10 that says, but visiting the blessings to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. And so there's something so much better at the end. So I believe that no matter the story of anybody's past, God can bring redemption and healing, and that the blessing is far greater than the curse.
A large part of how we lead is based on our upbringing, Ryan says
Dr. Jessica Peck: You saw this when you were doing your dissertation research, Ryan You saw a really encouraging, beautiful story that I heard you share about the pastors you researched. And I'D love for you to share it with my listeners.
Dr. Ryan Rush: Absolutely. So, in a nutshell, what I did in my research is I, I interviewed and used, a couple of testing instruments, pastors on four continents. So I talked to pastors in Brazil, in Uganda, in Cambodia, and then in the US And I wanted to understand, as best as they could tell, using an instrument, what their attachment, relationships were in the earliest part of their memories of their lives. And then I tested them, related to leadership style, to understand how are these pastors leading hundreds of pastors. And I did it across the globe because I wanted to understand if this is just a uniquely Western thing or American thing, or if it's truly universal and I believe biblical. And, of course, what didn't surprise me is that, yes, an enormous part of how we lead as adults is born out of those early years that does surprise a lot of people in maybe the leadership field, because we spend billions every year on leadership development. And it turns out a large part of how we lead is just how we were raised at home. The ultimate leadership. The picture is a mom and dad at home. So moms and dads, you are the flagship leaders in your children's lives. And so remember that.
The biggest surprise of my dissertation was related to Cambodian pastors
The best part, I, guess the biggest surprise of my dissertation was related to these pastors in Cambodia. And if you study any history, you know about the Khmer Rouge, it wasn't that many decades ago that Pol Pot came in and he brought in the communist regime and he slaughtered an entire generation of Cambodians when he did this to bring in this new regime. Most of what he was slaughtering was in Phnom Penh, where most of these pastors were serving that I interviewed. So a lot of them grew up in this generation where they lost mom or dad or both, at least aunts and uncles. So they grew up in bloodshed. Even worse, this new government would take the children out of the homes for at least a period of time and put them in learning groups to kind of create a communist family, if you will. It's just a horrible picture. They would make the boys and girls dress the same, have the same haircuts, because they didn't want them to have any individual identity and they wanted the, the nation or the government to be the parents. I mean, how sick is that? You think that might impact your, your attachment? So it wasn't a surprise that Cambodian pastors had some of the most egregious stories in their, their accounts of their attachment style early on. A lot of them had very Very difficult time learning how to relate. But what was remarkable is, the Cambodian pastors had a disproportionate number of transformational leaders which didn't make any sense. How could these end up having, so many who came out who were great leaders? And the answer, I believe was almost all of the Cambodian pastors are first generation Christians. Like the Lord has done this work just in the last 25, 30 years of raising up a church there of people who are in love with the Lord Jesus, who love the word of God. And so because of that, they have had a front row seat to the gospel, to grace, to really understanding how God sees them. And so they've been able to replace some of those internal working models or the lies the enemies told them about how to have healthy relationships. And they've learned to have real relationship with the Lord. The Lord has literally renewed their minds just like he did Joseph in the Old Testament. And it's just an incredible gracious model God has given all of us. And I hope an encouragement to anybody who says, well, it's too late for me, because it's not.
Dr. Jessica Peck: When we think about what they must have experienced, it is, it's, it's kind of sad, honestly, Ryan because we think, you know, well, like what you said at the beginning, well, I wish my dad had been at the game. And that's not to diminish the emotional impact because our own experience is our own experience and brokenness is brokenness. But I think your point is that even in the midst of unimaginable brokenness, of just egregious, awful brokenness, that hope rises from the ashes. And if hope can flourish there, hope can flourish in your home too. And so, Brian, what would you say to people who are thinking, okay, this is really new information to me. I, I'm not sure what I'm thinking about this or how this relates. What would you encourage them as next steps to consider? Maybe how attachment theory might be impacting the way that they're currently relating in their family and what that practically means to them.
Dr. Ryan Rush: Sure. So first thing I'd say to moms and dads is make sure you're investing time. The, the answer for cultivating relationships isn't some exercise that you do. It's more about quantities of time in the presence of one another where you are knowing them and they are known, you're known, you're known by them and you know them.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Them.
Dr. Ryan Rush: That's, that's so natural. It really goes back to, some research I did a couple of years ago on the table. I mean, the most natural place God has given us to allow this to happen is having meaningful meal times with the ones you love on multiple days a week, sitting across the table from them, making eye contact, putting the technology away and, and doing that because that allows you to do something that's not manufactured. The unspoken messages are, I believe in you, I love you, and I value you enough to set everything else aside and be with you. There's nothing that can take the place of that. The other thing I'd say is to recognize that we're all trying to navigate a broken world and we're all dealing with those mixed messages. And so if we can, afford grace, I think that's more in the context of maybe marriage and teenagers to say, have some understanding and know that they're going through some stuff as well. we've adapted a, three word phrase in our family that I, I don't remember where I got this from. I don't think it's original to me. But sad, mad, bad. It sounds like Dr. Seuss, but our core emotions are really about sadness most of the time. We can, we, if we don't deal with our sadness, then we tend to get mad. That's just, we're more natural. We can manifest that. And then of course, scripture has all sorts of things to say about when we don't deal with our anger and we let the sun go down on our anger, then we get too bad. So we go from sad to mad to bad. And when we get to bad, we feel like, you hurt me, so I want to hurt you. Hopefully not physically, but you want to bring harm to others because they've harmed your heart. And so if you can ever get back to that core of, saying, wait a second, what am I sad about? Let's address that. That's something you can deal with. Because Jesus told us, blessed are those who mourn, for they'll be comforted. We can deal with grief. And likewise, if we can be in the presence of conflict and what have you and say, wait a second, let's deal with the same sad, mad, bad principle and say, what are they sad about? Where's the broken heart that needs to be addressed now we have a place where healing can happen. And that's a beautiful place in the home.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is a beautiful place. It really is. And, that's a really simple explanation. But honestly, that's where I find in the grace of God in science. And some of these things are remarkably simple. When we boil Them down. Really what we're talking about even here today.
Having a conversation with your family about childhood trauma can help heal trauma
For me, a starting point might be Ryan just having a conversation with your family about it. It's really interesting, you know, like when. When you marry somebody, they come in and they look at your family with outside eyes. They see things that you don't see at all. And even your children who are growing up, and they see two different families of origin, and they see, you know, this family handles things this way, this family handles things this, this way. I feel like it gives them a more balanced perspective, you know, and they can see the ways that you're impacted by your childhood that maybe you just don't want to think about or that you think it's. That's just normal. And when we grow up, it's almost like we, we get a pair of glasses, you know, and that's how we see the world. And then maybe our kids, our spouses are wearing a different pair of glasses. We're looking at the same thing. But, you know, my glasses are purple tinted. Their glasses are blue tinted, you know, and they're like, no, it's purple. Purple. It's blue. It's purple, it's blue. So sometimes just being able to have that honest conversation, I know, you know, I experienced a lot of generational trauma and childhood trauma, and sometimes, you know, my kids can respectfully say, mama, that's your trauma talking. Because, you know, we're from Texas, so we got a little Texas dwang in there. But they'll say, that's your trauma talking. I'll have to stop and really think, like, is it. Do I. Do I really need it? Maybe that is. Maybe that's. Maybe I need to be humble enough to think, yeah, maybe that is impacting the way I'm seeing this.
Dr. Ryan Rush: I think along those same lines. It's so important. What you're saying is that one of the most powerful things you can do to cement the attachment relationship you have with your kids is to apologize, you know, because then you. You take away the spark of, or the. The lies that the enemy can bring in related to whatever event. Like bad things happen and something amazing happens when you sit down with your child of whatever age and say, listen, I want you to know, you know, dad. Dad blew up there, and that wasn't of God, you know, that was just in the flesh. I had a bad moment. I want you to know I'm sorry, but it's not the way I want to handle things. And so I want you to know the truth is, I love you. And value you and, and I came across the wrong way. There's, there's, there are a few more powerful moments you're going to have as a parent than when you do that.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Because healthy families rupture and repair. Healthy families aren't perfect. They don't get past this and think, oh well, we're perfect. We have no attachment issues. They, they learn to rupture and repair. And, and when we do that, we model a healthy relationship with God because we're going to sin for the rest of our lives, right?
Dr. Ryan Rush: M. That's really true. So self awareness isn't the goal of, of life. We've talked a lot about self awareness. That's not the goal. But it's really hard to lead others well, or parent others well, or be married to somebody if you're not self aware of why you're doing what you're doing, of the belief systems behind that. And it's really hard to get healing if you're not honest about it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, if you are out there listening and you are interested in hearing more, you can listen online at Kingsland Baptist Church to this series that Dr. Rush is going to have about Joseph. And I thank you so much for listening today. Ultimately we were made for relationship. We were made with connection, for connection with one another and ultimately with God. And that means what you're doing at home matters, how you're raising your kids matter. The way you listen, the way you respond, the way you apologize, the way that you show up consistently, the way that you communicate, and the way you rupture and repair. All of these things are normal parts of healthy families that aren't perfect because. And Christian parenting isn't about creating the perfect family that's ready for social media. We cannot control everything our kids will experience, but we can continue to grow in the likeness of Jesus. We can tell our kids they're loved. We can. That they can speak honestly about what is happening in their homes. And there is hope. No matter what kind of brokenness you came from, there is always hope for renewal and restoration and wherever you are in that, family journey and guiding your family, I pray as I always do, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you and give you peace. Also, if you want to Hear More from Dr. Rush, you can get a copy of his book Restore the Table. A great place to start strengthening your family right around your dinner table. Try it out. I'll see you right back here tomorrow. We'd like to thank our sponsors, including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR
Jeff Chamblee: The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Dr. Ryan Rush joins Jessica to talk about understanding attachment wounds through a biblical and science-based lens.
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Chapters:
(00:00) More than 80% of abortion vulnerable women choose life after seeing ultrasound
(01:47) Dr. Jessica Peck prescribes Hope for healthy families on American Family Radio
(02:45) Attachment theory explores how early relationships shape our expectations about safety and trust
(04:33) Today's conversation brings together science and theology through a pastor
(06:07) Can you explain attachment theory in simple terms for everyday people?
(09:06) An unhealthy attachment impacts the way that we conduct relationships for our lifetime
(13:18) We have an anxious attachment or an avoidant attachment
(16:48) Without people like you, this podcast would not exist
(23:36) How do you see those attachment wounds manifesting themselves in marriage?
(28:47) What can we learn about Joseph and his life and attachment theory?
(34:13) There is a great deal of emphasis on human wisdom in evangelical circles
(36:11) Dr. Ryan Rush talks about attachment theory
(39:03) A large part of how we lead is based on our upbringing, Ryan says
(40:37) The biggest surprise of my dissertation was related to Cambodian pastors
(47:02) Having a conversation with your family about childhood trauma can help heal trauma
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