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 : and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show, prescribing Hope for healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner, and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there, friends, and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. And we have got a great conversation ahead of us today. I am really excited to talk about this because this is something that I hear in popular conversation all the time. We live in an age where everyone seems to have an opinion about everything. And I try not to use words like always, never, but it just seems like we live in a world where people are very free to share their opinion, especially online, because thanks to social media, everyone has a platform where they can weigh in on any, any topic about any person or anything at all. We rate businesses, we critique other people's parenting choices, we cancel celebrities, we argue politics. We even sometimes measure one another's faithfulness, like, just by doing our little online investigations. Judgment has really become a part of our cultural air here, the air that we breathe. And there's a balance there. And it's really hard. And you hear camps on, on either side, one saying, judge not. And, like, that's just the only part of the verse they share. Judge not lest you be judged, or we judge everything. And what is the biblical truth in all of this? Because the uncomfortable truth, the uncomfortable cultural truth, is that that judgment isn't just staying online. It is following us into our homes, our marriages, our churches, our own hearts. Parents judge themselves and wonder if they're doing enough. And we judge other people thinking, okay, well, they did that. I didn't do this. Teenagers feel judged by impossible expectations. Marriages erode, under criticism instead of grace. And church communities that are meant to reflect the mercy of Christ, sometimes they become places where people expect condemnation more than compassion. How do we speak the truth with love? How do we speak truth with kindness? Now, research consistently shows that criticism, however, is one of the strongest predictors of relational distress. And family research researchers have demonstrated that contempt in particular is among the most destructive attitudes in close relationships. While things like empathy, repair and kindness, while not compromising truth, build resilience. And scripture teaches this all along. Mercy triumphs over judgment. But the challenge for Christian families is unique because we're called to uphold truth, but also reflect the heart of Christ. We don't ignore sin, but we also don't appoint ourselves as judge and jury over every person and every issue around us. So today's conversation isn't about abandoning discernment. It's about learning the difference between righteous discernment and self righteous judgment. Our guest today is Shannon Popkin She's a Bible teacher, a speaker, she's a best selling author. And her, her newest book, Kinda Judgy takes readers through six biblical stories that expose our tendency towards judgment while introducing to us the lavish mercy of God. Now Shannon writes very honestly and shows how God softened her own smart and helped her trade criticism for compassion. So today we'll explore why we become so judgmental in the first place. How it can damage our relationships and what it looks like to give the gavel back to Jesus.

Jessica: Shannon, this is a tough topic and one that I hear a lot of debate about

So Shannon, this is a tough topic and one that I hear a lot of debate about and I'm so glad that you are here today to join us. Why don't you just start by introducing yourself to our listeners. Tell them a little bit of your story, your testimony, how you came to know the Lord and how he put this message on your heart.

Shannon Popkin: Sure. Well, thank you so much, Jessica. What a great, you just encapsulated the topic and the, the tension so well. and I think it's a, tension we can all relate to. But I grew up in church, you know, I came from a family of faith and grew up wanting to know what was right, what God said was right in his, in his word. And I remember being a very faithful teen, you know, wanting to, wanting to please the Lord. and, and then as an adult, you know, kept pursuing the Lord. I got married, I have three kids. And I remember my husband and I just looking for churches where discernment was really, important to the people. But along with all of that came this desire to be right, you know, to be. If God was going to draw a

Dr. Jessica Peck: line, I can relate between.

Shannon Popkin: Right, yeah, yeah, exactly. If God's going to draw a line between right and wrong, I want to be on the right side of every single one, whether as a, whether as a wife, whether as a member of culture and society. And so I think it's that, that judgment behind the, or, the pride I'm sorry, behind the pointed finger, you know, the finger of judgment always points down, doesn't it, from this. This elevated position of. Of condescending, you know, like, superiority. That's really, I think, where. Where the tension is built from. And, you know, the Bible says both. It says, like you said, do not judge. Also judge with righteous judgment. John 7. 27. And the way I see it, in our culture right now, we've got two megaphones. We've got one megaphone where somebody's saying, do not judge, right? The other is do not, or I'm sorry, you are wrong. And we've got, you know, both of these just huge voices. And yet the voice that I hear in the scriptures calling out the biggest megaphone message is, God is merciful. And so he invites us to be merciful as he is. And, I think we've really got to grapple with that in our culture in our day.

Dr. Jessica Peck: You're so right that there's just a tension there. And sometimes we don't know where it is. And sometimes when we're in the. We're on the. And the judging camp, you know, it can feel like we're speaking truth, we're protecting truth, we're defending our faith. But, you know, the scripture always said, also says, you know, ask God to search our hearts. Try me know every. See if there's any wicked way within me. And sometimes, honestly, if we're really honest, Shannon, sometimes we need that judgment. We have fear, just like you said. It's like, oh, I need to call that out and judge that. Because if I can say, oh, that happened because they did this and I would never do that, then that's going to make my fear be a little less. Or maybe it is pride, like, oh, they did that. Oh, I don't struggle with that. Or maybe it's insecurity. Maybe it's unresolved shame. There can be all kinds of motivation, but regardless of that, regardless of the motivation, we've all experienced feeling judged. And most of us could probably say we feel like we've been judged unjustly. Now, maybe that's just because I've got a kid who has a meltdown in the grocery store. You know, I've definitely felt very judged in that situation before. Like, what?

Dr. Jessica Peck: Why can't she get a hold of her kids? Or it could be something really a lot more difficult. Like, maybe we feel judged because of the decisions that our adult children are making, or something that's really more painful.

Why do you think being judged is such an emotional experience?

Why do you think being judged is Such an emotional experience and, and such a cultural zeitgeist for. Right, for today. It's just. Why is it, why is it so. So sensitive?

Shannon Popkin: Well, I think we're right in interpreting a lot of judgment. Like you mentioned. I think the world is really judgy right now. whether we're in a Christian context or not. Everybody is making decisions very callously about whether you're parenting, right, Whether you're, you know, your work, work ethic is correct or, you know, just how you're living your life, right, wrong or indifferent. And so, I think we're, we're right to interpret these things, but, I think that, that it's important to recognize the ways that we're getting it wrong. You know, like when, when we're feeling judged, right? I think what we want to do is we want to judge right back. We want to like, we want to. If we're feeling put down by somebody else's judgy finger, we want to lift ourselves up and put them down. Like we want to respond in kind with judgment of our own. I think that's what we're after. We get these little judgy boosts of pride, don't we, when we judge somebody else. I remember my daughter coming down, after I put her to bed when she's about 4. She's standing on the stairs and she says to me, coley got out of bed again. You know, she's talking about her two year old brother. And I'm like, oh, sweetie, and what about you? Because you too have gotten out of bed to tell me that he is out of bed. And so that, that's that judgy boost of pride like you just mentioned. You know, it m. It may be coming from a place of like, I don't want to deal with the fact that I've fallen short. I don't want to deal with the fact that everybody's pointing the finger at me. I just want to be the one who's in the right. Nobody wants to be the one who's getting it all wrong. And so I think we turn to judgment as a way to direct the attention, our own attention or others attention at somebody else who's getting it wrong. and so that's where I think, you know, we've got to take a look at our own hearts. You already mentioned that. So how am I getting it wrong when I'm judging somebody else? You know, even when I feel judged, I feel like that gives me license. And yet when I'm judging someone Else I have to look at. Am I being hypocritical? You know, and I. Am I judging them for something that I myself do? You know, am I judging by appearances, by these superficial looks at their life, you know, looking through a screen? I don't know as much as I think I do. Perhaps. am I making snap judgments or am I being harsh? You know, the Lord is so merc. Merciful, and he asks us to be like him, like our merciful God. and one more maybe is, have I taken God's gavel into my hand? Have I pronounced this final verdict on somebody's life? Like, reduced their worth to a single verdict? In all of these ways, we may feel justified in our judgment, but these are the ways that we're getting it wrong. And I think we. We really have to be honest about that.

Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I think it's hard. We. We.

Shannon says childhood experiences can shape how we view judgment

You talked a little bit about the way that you grew up and how that really, we know that the way that we grow up, our childhood experiences really color the lens through which we see the world. And I know, Shannon, that I grew up in a family, that it was like, it was very important to. To look like we had it all together. And I feel like we climbed up on this pedestal where everybody thought, oh, that's the ideal family. And then it got to be where the greatest fear was, falling off the pedestal and the social injuries that would incur from the judgment that ensued, then from the very real threats that were facing us. How did you see, when you were doing research for your book, how did you see the family backgrounds, how they impact the way that we view judgment?

Shannon Popkin: Yeah, like I said, I grew up in a Christian environment, and, yeah, our family, we wanted to do it all right. And, we even added on layers of how to do it right. I remember as maybe 15, 16 year old processing, on. On the bus with a. With some girlfriends from my youth group, processing the righteous indignation in our hearts because a boy from our youth group had asked a girl from our school to a movie. And we were horrified by this. And if you're listening, thinking, like, well, what's wrong with that? Then you probably didn't grow up in the same context I did. And so we couldn't have told you why that was wrong, but we knew that he had destroyed our testimony with this. And so, like, there were layers upon layers of things right and wrong, you know? and I think, yeah, this context, it does play into it when you come from a context like that where you have these rules, and you need to get it right in order to win the approval of the people around you. And there is such fear of losing that approval. yeah, it does just kind of, ah, show you into this judging, judging habits. But then I think for those who are on the outside looking in, you know, that context too, you're concerned about, like, well, how are they going to perceive me? I have, I haven't done, you know, I grew up in a different context. I haven't done it right in a number of different ways. And I think in both of those instances, it's so helpful to go back and look at how God looks at people. You know, God is a judge who judges. And yet throughout the text of our scriptures, in the Old Testament and in the NewSong Testament, woven through, yes, there is judgment, but also right beside that, judgment is always God's mercy. and so, like, one of the stories that I love is the story of Rahab where, you know, a lot of people, like, you know, you mentioned this fear of getting it wrong. Well, Rahab, I mean, she was not this ideal model citizen. You know, she's a prostitute. And she's living in the context of a city that God is sending his people in, marching toward them. He's coming with destruction. And, but here's this one woman in the middle of that city who's like, kind of waving the white flag of surrender. And this story answers, answers the question, what does God think about that? You know, what does he think about one woman who maybe she's done it all wrong and yet she's saying like, hey, can I have mercy? His answer is a resounding yes. That's the story of Rahab. God sends his two spies. They think they're on a spy mission, a reconnaissance mission, and yet they're really on a mission to, to get, to rescue Rahab. because they don't get any intel that helps their battle. You know, their battle plan is march around the city walls. I don't know if you know that story. The listeners know that story, but people, they marched. The God's people marched around the city seven times. The walls fell. They took the city. And so what's the purpose of sending these two spies? And why include that story? It shows us this is God's heart. It's full of mercy. His heart is so pent up with mercy. For the one person, she's in a city full of people rejecting God, but the one person who wants to wave her white flag of, surrender and God's Answer is yes. Yes, you can have your mercy.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Shannon, much more to talk about. I know this is a tough topic. We'll talk about judgment in light of cancel culture and how that impacts families. We'll talk about when to judge and maybe when not to judge. Examining our own hearts. Judgment really begins in the heart before words come out of our mouth. We'll talk more about that with Shannon Popkin when we come back.

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Shannon Popkin talks about being kinda judgy in today's world

Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back friends. That is Children of God by third day. And we're talking about as children of God, we often do not do the right thing or say the right thing. We do what we don't want to do and we don't do what we want to do. All of that is the nature of the, of our, our human nature within us. And today I'm talking about the human nature that we have to be kind of judgy. That's the name of the book by Shannon Popkin and her book is called Kind of Judgy, Finding Mercy for Myself and Others and Singing Stories of the Bible. Now we're talking clearly about attention here. We're not talking about compromising truth, but we're also talking about finding mercy when people need it. That is a reflection of God's heart. When I think about being judgy in today's world, we see it for sure on social media. People say things online that they would never ever say in person. Where we look even sometimes at total strangers and we judge their appearance, their clothing, their body, their choices, they're whatever it is. And when we, I see that we live in a cancel culture and kids are watching how we're responding and we can judge, maybe other people striving, maybe not so kindly with unkind words that come out of our mouth about those other people. There's so many ways that we can be so judgy, but judgment really comes from our hearts. That it is, begins in our hearts long before those words come out of our mouths, a speech or from our fingertips into typing.

Shannon: What does Jesus actually mean when he says do not judge?

And we're going to talk, talk now about one of the biggest misconceptions in Christianity. What Jesus actually meant when he said do not judge. Because that's one of the greatest tensions facing Christian families. How do we hold firmly to biblical truth without becoming harsh, self righteous, condemning, gleeful and condemnation really sometimes. And many people assume the choices are either affirm everything or judge everyone. And Shannon kind of talked about that with these two mega megaphones. But Jesus really modeled a better way, full of truth and grace. So Shannon, let's just dive into that verse in Matthew 7 where it's often quoted as a fragment, judge not. And we heard that on the social media trend, like we listen and we don't judge. What is the, what is the. Take us back to the biblical worldview, the interpretation of what did Jesus actually mean when he said don't judge?

Shannon Popkin: Yeah, yeah. I think in our cultural moment like that social media trend, we listen and we don't judge. It's wrong to say that somebody is wrong in our day and age. and discernment begins with saying that God is the one who draws the lines between right and wrong. And the answer is not to erase those long, those lines. You know the answer, for, for being discerning people like you said, we don't want to get rid of our discernment. we need to agree with God. But so when Jesus said do not judge, let's just start with what he's not saying. You know, he's not saying that we're judging wrongly when we parent our kids. You know, we teach them right and wrong. We're not wrongly judging when we confront someone, a fellow believer who's in sin. Matthew 18 sets up the, the decision making, schema for how to do that rightly. And, you know, we're also not judging. I think this, in our cultural moment, we're not judging when we say that the Bible is clear and it is authoritative, and, it is, is. It's sufficient for knowing how to live a godly life. So, you know, as believers, we shouldn't, we shouldn't ignore sin, we shouldn't redefine sin, and we shouldn't celebrate sin. You know, Romans also talks about that, like, that those who, not only sin, but they celebrate in wrongdoing. So those are all things. Like, I think we would agree as believers that we shouldn't do those. But then what does that mean? When Jesus says do not judge, like, what is he actually talking about? We can't just get rid of the warning. You know, we want to be wise in this way too. And so, I think it's helpful to notice that this is not just a command, it's also a warning. Because Jesus follows it up with some words about hypocrisy. Remember, there's that. Those verses about the log in the spec. And he's like, don't try and get the spec out without getting the log out of your own eye. and so he's. He's talking about hypocrisy there. You know, like, don't try and dig into somebody else's life when you've got a big, huge, log of pride maybe sticking out of your own eye. and the point isn't just, just to get that log out so you can close your eyes to other people's sin. It's so that, you know, get that log out of your eyes so that you can see clearly to help, you know, with, with, sin removal, you know, in the lives of other people. And so this is where I'm just picturing, you know, the mom who's wagging her finger at her lion kid. Or, you know, our diatribes, like you said on social media, we're. We're pointing out all the other hypocrites in the world or the wife, like you, like you talked about how contempt is the biggest determination a marriage will be successful. And so the contempt in a wife rolling her eyes at her husband. And so these are, these are the things that Jesus is warning against. It's these sort of attitudes that, surface in our hearts. You know, like I, I kind of mentioned them earlier before, like hypocrisy or harshness or contempt or, you know, holding God's gavel as if we're the one who determines who weighs somebody else's worth. and so I think, you know, really, if we could boil it all down, what is the way that we're getting it wrong? Well, it's pride. In all of those ways, it's pride. It's acting like I don't do the same things or, you know, contempt always says two things at once. It says, you are awful and I'm nothing like you. Right? And so this is, this is pride speaking from our hearts. And so when Jesus followed up in those verses, he, like I said, he gave a warning. And he said, you know, whatever measurement that you use to dish out, whether judgment or mercy, like, picture you've got your mercy skill, scoop. You know, someone. Mercy is not giving the judgment that someone deserves. You know, and so let's say you've got your mercy scoop, someone has sinned, they've offended you. Which, size scoop are you going to use? Because that's the one that Jesus is going to use for you. So, like, I've got a, a little, you know, big, kind of can't candy jar size scoop. Or are you going to use a little, like quarter of a little teaspoon scoop? Which size are you going to dish out mercy with? And Jesus is like, that's what you're going to receive. So there's a huge warning in this. If you judged, you're going to be judged in the same man that you have judged others. and we see actually in the Scriptures, we see God responding to people in that way. We've got the story of Jonah, we've got the story of Simon the Pharisee. We've got lots of different ways where people are judging others. The, the prodigal son's older brother, they're judging someone else who has done wrongly. But they've got this heart full of contempt. And that's the warning for all of us.

Holding to biblical truth while reflecting the mercy of God is difficult

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, that sounds like that's the tipping point, because we talk about, you're talking about holding firm to biblical truth. We're not trying to water that down or compromise that. You're also talking about reflecting the mercy of Christ, which we do so pitifully. You know, we really do, because we want judgment in the world. We want, you know, everybody to get what's coming to them. And unless it's me, like, oh, please be nice to me then, please. I want, like you said, like, I, I want to give out a little mercy, but get a lot of mercy in return. But walking that balance is really hard to do in everyday life. And it sounds like you're saying the tipping point really comes down to the attitude of the heart. How can we, how can we as parents especially model that to our kids? Holding to biblical truth while also reflecting the mercy of God?

Shannon Popkin: Yeah, it's, I think it takes a conscious effort. When early on, maybe, like 10 years ago when I was leading Bible study, I created this chart of when to judge and when not to judge. And I looked at all the scriptures, you know, all the teaching, and I, I passed it out to my Bible study group. But I think my little chart only made me more judgy because now I could judge with precision who was doing it right and who was doing it wrong. And I, and I think, you know, we bring that sort of attitude into our parenting. You know, whether we're directly telling our kids they're wrong or whether we're talking about all the other people who are doing it wrong. You know, this attitude of, superiority. Our kids are being discipled by that and what we see. So what can we do differently? Well, I, I mean, I, I, I think that the teaching parts of our Bible are, are essential, like that passage we just looked at in Matthew 7. But I, I really, with this book that I wrote, kind of judgy.

I wanted us to look at some stories of the Bible because I think stories help

I wanted us to look at some stories of the Bible because I think stories help us to capture, like, the heart of God. And and so what my advice, if you're a mom or, you know, just a, a person in general, if you're trying to disciple other people, you're trying to lead them to embrace what God embraces. Well, look, take a look at these stories because what we encounters, people who are doing it all wrong. His heart is so full of mercy. there's this story I think I just mentioned of Simon, this Pharisee. He's hosting a dinner party, and this woman comes in and she's weeping at the feet of Jesus. She's making a complete, scene. She lets her hair down, which is completely unacceptable socially. And so Simon, this Pharisee, he's looking on at what's happening over here, and his heart is so full of contempt, disgust. He's like, oh, if he knew, if Jesus knew who this woman was or what sort of woman she was, he would not let her touch him. And so we get the sense that Simon would like a judgy Jesus. He would like the kind of Jesus to be like, get away, you know, the way that we are. And so Simon is actually judging in that moment. And Jesus Calls him out on it, he says, you know, he tells this story and he's like, simon, there are two people in debt. You know, one has a lot of debt, one has a little debt. And so what he's doing in that is he's putting Simon in the prostitute, the Pharisee and the prostitute together in the same story. And he's saying, you know what? You're not, you think she's a different sort than you. Actually, you're the same sort. You're both in debt that you cannot pay. And I've come to show you mercy. Jesus puts himself in that story too, as the, the one who cancels their debt. And here she is receiving that mercy, but Simon doesn't realize he needs it. So these are the sorts of stories that we have to counsel our own heart with. You know, like, let's say you do have a teenager who's just, they're lying to you. They're, they're being disrespectful. Well, is there a time that, that you have lied, you know, that you have been disrespectful, that you have needed God's mercy? I remember being so disgusted with one of my kids because his room was always a disaster. And one day as I was walking by his room just filled with like, oh, I can't believe him. You know, like that sort of an attitude. I suddenly remembered, oh my goodness, how my mom talks about how my room was when I was a teenager. And I like totally forget about that. I mean, she says it was a complete pit. I didn't realize that. I didn't notice it. And yet here I am judging my kid in my head, you know, playing court in my head, the way Simon was like, oh, I can't believe this. I'm so disgusted. And yet I needed that same mercy that my child needs, you know, I mean, a messy room. That's not like, I don't think that's one of the ten Commandments, you know what I mean? And so it's like these areas where we're so harsh, we're so condescending and so judgmental as we parent, as we, as we disciple our children, you know, unofficially, as we're, ah, encountering different people and situations in life, let's approach these situations as someone who has received great mercy from the Lord.

Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, as you're talking, I'm just thinking about the blind spots that we have because partially what I see is that when people judge other people for a choice that they have, or something bad happens to them, they're really trying to make themselves feel safe. They're trying to just say, okay, well, that would never happen to me because I would never do this. And so let me, let me think until my mind kind of clicks in that one space that, that, oh, well, they do, you know, X, Y and Z. And I would never do that. So now I place myself superior. I place myself on higher ground. I feel a little safer. And sometimes it's like you're describing, sometimes we just have a blind spot and we forget that we need gr. We need mercy. And as you're talking, you're not saying that you don't tell your kids to clean their room. That's not what you're saying. You're just saying the attitude with which you deliver, that is, is the key. What, what are those blind spots? Maybe that, that we see and that we don't see in ourselves when we're judging other people.

Shannon Popkin: Yeah, yeah. It's like Simon, Jesus wasn't saying in that story that Simon should have just dismissed this woman's sin or acted like she wasn't a sinner. Right? That's not the goal to just erase all of the lines between right and wrong. But the blind spots are where we, we're only focused, you know, Think, think. Picture that finger of judgment pointing down, but also pointing away from you. Right? It's just ignoring the sin in your own life. And so our blind spots are created by our hypocrisy. and we see that so much in the Pharisees. They're so blind to their own sin and they're so convinced that they are right. You mentioned cancel culture. And there's the story in, Jon chapter nine of this, like this blind man who receives his sight from, excuse me, from Jesus. And by the end of the story, he is completely kicked out of the synagogue and he's done nothing wrong. But these guys, they are so convinced they're right. They are so full of their own superiority. And they're so. They keep saying, like, who. Who healed you? How did this happen? And they're saying, you know, well, we follow Moses, you follow this guy. They're just so full of their own self righteousness. And so that's where, that's where our blindness is born out of. It's like presuming that I am right and you are wrong. And there's no, nothing for me to learn here in this situation. and you know, like I said, that man was kicked out. I mean, how many people have we kicked out of Our lives, you know, so convinced that we are right and this other person is wrong. I had a situation with a friend that, that, you know, I just kind of backed out of the friendship because, I had invited her to be on a prayer team. I have a prayer team for my ministry. And she hadn't responded. And I was so offended. I was so, like, just, you know, I just. That hurts a little bit. And I convinced myself that I knew why she had backed away. I'm like, I know what she's thinking. She's thinking, who is Shannon to be, like, speaking and writing? Who does she think she is? She's just like a common person. And I'm thinking, like, I know that, I know I'm not very credentialed here, and yet, I, I, I felt, like, hurt by her judging me. And yet, look at, I, I've created this whole courtroom scene. And as I was writing this book, I realized, like, I didn't even invite my friend Renee into the courtroom. Like, I, I pounded God's gavel, you know, I, I shut her out. I canceled, like, didn't completely cancel the friendship, but, like, I, I convinced myself that I was right and she was wrong. And so I was so convicted of that that, that I called her and I just said, look, I feel like I've judged you when you didn't, accept my invitation on that prayer team. It's embarrassing to even say this, but I feel like I really judged your motives in that.

Dr. Jessica Peck: You know what, Shannon?

Shannon Popkin: Hold on.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Hold it right there. We're going to say what she said on the other side of this break. We're already at our second break, but we have much more to talk about. Being kinda judgy and how can we do better at getting it right? We'll be right back with more from Shannon Popkin See you after this break.

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Author Shannon Popkin talks about judging in a new book

And welcome back to our conversation. We're talking with author Shannon Popkin about her book kinda judgy, Finding Mercy for Myself and Others in six Stories of the Bible. And one of the things I've appreciated about our conversation so far is that a lot of people say, oh, the Bible isn't relevant to today's issues. And you just heard her say, you mentioned cancel culture. Let's go to Jon chapter nine and look at an example of cancel culture. It is there. She's also shared stories from the Bible, much as she does in her book, talking about how Jesus responded to judgment and how do we navigate that tension of holding tight to biblical truth, but also reflecting the mercy of Christ. And Shannon, right before the break, you were talking about judging your friend, which I think we can all relate to in some context and creating, like you said, this real, really big courtroom scenario in our mind where we have filled in all of the gaps with our assumptions and we have, you know, slammed the gavel, made the judgment, made the, you know, made the relationship decision. I'm seeing this happen in, in friendships, but also in families. But you called her, you told her, you confessed and what happened.

Shannon Popkin: Yeah, yeah, no, you're so right. Like we're having all of these divisions in our families, like, we're going no contact, you know, or we're backing away from childh friends or people, you know, it's just so much division. Right. And so with my friend, I, I have to admit that's what I did. I, I hate to see myself that way, but I kind of like judged her superficially, like made these judgments of her heart and what she was thinking in my response to it. And so yes, I reached out and I said, like, I, I confess, I think I've been judging you. And she was like, oh, I'm so glad you reached out because I have never even remotely once thought any of those things about you. I'm so proud of you. And I, I actually thought I was on that prayer team. It was just like this really hard, harsh way that I had looked at her. And I think, you know, that's just so common in the way that we're approaching one another today. and so, yeah, I think, just. Just asking ourselves these questions of, like, am I judging or am I. Am I trying to be merciful the way that God is merciful?

Critical spirit and judgment can divide families

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, it sounds like you've drawn a line between judgment and criticism, or maybe it's delivering judgment with a critical spirit. And we talked a little bit about criticism and contempt and the motivations of our heart. You. You've talked about that dividing of friendship. And now I do see it in families. We're seeing a lot of headlines, talking about more and more people going, no contact. And we have a social media framework for this. If, If I don't agree with you, if I don't like what you say, like what you do, like what, who you vote for, like, I'm just gonna cancel you unfriend, walk away from you completely, leave. What do you. How do you see that critical spirit and judgment dividing spouses and parents and kids and adult siblings and families? How do you see that really weakening families?

Shannon Popkin: Well, like we've said, contempt is a really big determinant of those divisions. Like, if. If you feel that someone has contempt for you, that they're judging you, there is going to be division. Right? They're just going to back away, even if it's not really expressed with words, if it's just an attitud. Dude, we pick up on that so quickly, don't we? But we also pick up on the great mercy and compassion. You know, I think we, when we, we develop compassion for other people, for other sinners, when we see ourselves among them. Right. and. And we can develop one or the other. Like you said, we can have this critical spirit and critic when we're criticizing someone. That might be over just little inconsequential things. Judging, I think, gets more into the right and wrong of things. You know, like, I'm. I might criticize the way you vacuum your carpet, but judging, I'm going to judge you for the way you parented your kids or those sorts of things. And so which one are we cultivating in our hearts? Are we cultivating a heart of harsh judgment toward other people, judging by appearances, making snap judgments, what's in our hearts, or are we cultivating the heart of God? his heart is so pent up with mercy. He loves to extend his mercy to others. Like, if we often think that what's pent up in God's heart is judgment. But if you look at the stories of the Bible, if you look at how patient God is, how kind he is, how. How long he extends his mercy, you have to admit God is so very merciful. And we, as the recipients of this mercy, it's supposed to change us. You know, Romans says that, it's. That there's this intentionality. It's, God's kindness that leads us to repentance. And so he. He wants for us to be recipients, but he wants for this to change us and change the way that we approach other people. People.

Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, you teach Shannon through Bible stories, and one of the stories I'm thinking about with judgment is the poor. The story of poor Martha. I will always feel bad for Martha because I am the Martha and the Martha and Mary. And you think about, you know, that situation that happened and she went to the Lord, like, fully believing he is going to back me up, and he needs to tell her to get up. And what does he say? It always cracks me up because I've circled it in my Bible. Because he didn't just say Martha. He. He said Martha, Martha made me think of, you know, made me think of the Brady Bunch episodes, like, Marcia, Marcia, Marcia. That's what it makes me think of. But I think, like, he's like, Martha, Martha. You just don't get it. And he modeled for her a different way. What. What are the. What are the words that you want us to remember when it comes to mercy and reflecting the mercy of Christ as we finish our time here together? Shannon, What. What. What is the m. Message that we need to have resonating in our hearts when we think about judging us others?

Shannon Popkin: I just want us to remember that Jesus is a better judge. Right? Jesus has all of the evidence laid out in front of us of all the ways we've done it wrong in a way that no other person ever did. And yet how he approached people repeatedly with such mercy. he's not only the better judge, because he truly does know right from wrong, completely, perfectly. And he has all of the evidence displayed in front of him, and he holds that final gavel. And so he is the perfect judge, and yet he is the most, most merciful judge. And so I think I would love for us to just bask our hearts in, you know, how Jesus responds to Marcia. Not Marsha. Sorry, Martha.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Marcia or Martha. Either one. Yes. It's A lesson for us all, for sure.

Shannon Popkin: Yeah, but Martha and Jonah and Simon, the pharisee, I mean, so often his heart is so for the person who's even showing contempt, you know, if you're finding conviction. In fact, I have this, judgy quiz. If you want to find out just how judgy you are, you can take the quiz and you can download the heart check and just, compare your heart toward other people with the great mercy that God has for them.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, I really appreciate that, Shannon. You've given us such great food for thought. And even thinking about the parables that Jesus taught with, I can identify with Martha, I can identify with the brother of the prodigal son, you know, and just like having that judgy spirit. But you've given us a lot to think about. I really appreciate, everything that you have brought to us. And the book again is called kinda judgy, Finding Mercy for Myself and Others in Six Stories of the Bible. And Shannon, thanks for reminding us today that our homes become healthier not because everybody's perfect or everyone is judged perfectly, but grace. That spirit of grace is stronger than the spirit of criticism. While we also also hold to that biblical truth. And you've reminded us the answer is not pretending sin doesn't matter. It's remembering that the judge of all the earth is also the Savior who delights in mercy. I. I love that verse that you said, Shannon, about. It's your kindness that leads us to repentance. So if you maybe are finding yourself carrying around an invisible gavel and you feel very judgmental, today's an invitation to set it down. It is not just a call to better behavior. It's just. Just to look at your heart. Shannon, thank you so much for joining us.

Shannon Popkin: It was so great to be with you. Thanks so much, Jessica.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, thanks.

American Family Radio kicks off Truth for Youth Bible Week with Tim Todd

Well, before we leave today, we have Tim Todd joining us for our last few minutes together to talk about something really exciting. We're kicking off here at American Family Radio. This is national truth for Youth Bible Week here, August 3rd through 7th. And we are inviting you, our listeners, to help us give away thousands of free Bibles to young people across Americ. Much as Shannon and I were just talking about all of the Bible stories that are so instructive for our lives today, we want to give that hope and that help to young people. And I have Tim Todd here with me in studio to talk about it. Tim, thank you so much for joining us.

Rev Tim Todd: Thank you so much for having me, Jessica. Appreciate you.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Tim it's always a joy to have you on. Tell us. Maybe some people are new and they haven't heard. Tell us about Truth for Youth Bible Week.

Rev Tim Todd: Yes, the Truth for Youth Bible. It consists of the entire New Testament with also 100 pages of full color comic stories that deal with the truth about issues of moral concern that young people are confronted with on a daily basis. So with the love of God, we hit these issues head on to help our young people find a breakthrough in their life with things that they're up against like pornography and sexual purity, cutting, sexting, bullying, suing, honor, sorcery, witchcraft, you name it. We've got it covered in these comic stories in the front section. And then along with that we put the plan of salvation in each story and we give the Truth for Youth Bible for the past 25 years now with American Family Radio, Jessica, the Truth for Youth Bible. We give it to every Christian teenager who will commit to give it to their friends in school that don't know Jesus. Given away over a million of these Bibles in the past 25 years. This is the 26th annual National Truth for Youth Bible Week on American Family Radio. And Our goal is 65,000 Truth for youth Bibles. And if they want to get one to give away in school, they can call our toll free number that is open right now. We've got 10 people answering the phones. 800-733-4737 again 800-733-4737 or go to tfy.org tfy.org and help us get the word of God into the hands of young people all across America.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Tim. Hm? It's my understanding that this initiative has resulted in more than 30,000 young people making professions of faith in Christ. Did I get that number right?

Rev Tim Todd: Yes you did. And one of them was my pastor when he was a sophomore in high school science, ah, teacher heard it on AFR and he ordered a Truth View Bible, brought his Truth View Bible in and interrupted a science class and threw the Bible on my, on this young man troubled, involved in alcohol and marijuana, different things. And this young man, he looked through, read all of the comics. the Lord grabbed hold of his heart. He gave his life to Jesus Christ. He was called into the ministry and then he is now pastoring the church where I attend in West Monroe, Louisiana for over five years. And of course he's married to a Christian young lady, has three children that are now serving the Lord. And so it's generational what God is doing, doing with the distribution of the truth for Youth Bible. And we can't be more excited about getting more of these Bibles into the hands of young people.

Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, Tim, I hear a lot of pessimism about younger generation from older generations and older generations, I'm meaning anyone, millennials and up. We really tend to look down on the younger generations. Gen Z, Gen Alpha, that's coming up behind them. And we. It's easy for us to say what's wrong with those generations, but every time I talk to people who are in ministry who are working with young people, they are so confident that God is on the move, that revival is happening, that God is raising up leaders, that there are things to be hopeful about. Tim, do you feel the same way?

Rev Tim Todd: I do. In fact, the name of the ministry. I've been on the evangelistic field now, Jessica, for 39 years. And if the Lord doesn't return, first, then, next year, we'll make 40. But the name of the ministry is Revival Fires. And we are truly seeing revival fires that are being set in the hearts of young people all over, America and around the world. And I believe if we're going to reach our nation and bring our nation back to God, we have to reach a generation of young people. And that's what this Truth for Youth Bible distribution is all about.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, tell us one more time how people can participate, because I've been encouraging, Tim, I've been encouraging everyone. Once it starts to be school season, I tell everybody, when you walk in a store and, and you see all of those school supplies there, those are going to be used by a student. You can go and pray over those school supplies. Pray for the student that's there, but you're inviting them, you're inviting our listeners to participate in helping to get a Bible into the hands of a young person who may need hope. How can they do it?

Rev Tim Todd: They can call right now. The phones are open. 800-733-4737. One more time, 800-733-4737 or online. They can go to tfy.org tfy.org and help us get the word of God into the hands of young people all across America.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Tim, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for all that you are doing. That is something to really celebrate in a world full of bad news. It's so good to see organizations like yours that are committed to help young people find help and hope and identity and meaning and purpose through the unchanging truth of God's word. We know that kids are hungry for hope. And you can participate by calling 800-733-4737 or go to tfy.org and as you do that, and I hope that you will, I pray as I always do, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you, give you peace. And I'll see you right back here tomorrow. We'd like to thank our sponsors, including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion. And every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR the views and

Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of, the American Family association or American Family Radio.

Why are we so judgy? Author and Podcast host Shannon Popkin joins Jessica to talk about trading contempt for compassion in a culture of constant criticism. 

https://www.shannonpopkin.com/

https://giving.preborn.com/preborn/checkout/afa?sc=43490GF2022&campaign=404750

Chapters:

(00:00) Preborn needs pro life community support to help with affordable ultrasounds

(04:17) Jessica: Shannon, this is a tough topic and one that I hear a lot of debate about

(08:00) Why do you think being judged is such an emotional experience?

(11:01) Shannon says childhood experiences can shape how we view judgment

(17:36) Shannon Popkin talks about being kinda judgy in today's world

(19:08) Shannon: What does Jesus actually mean when he says do not judge?

(24:33) Holding to biblical truth while reflecting the mercy of God is difficult

(26:13) I wanted us to look at some stories of the Bible because I think stories help

(33:22) American family news is different from many other mainstream news sources

(35:26) Author Shannon Popkin talks about judging in a new book(37:45) Critical spirit and judgment can divide families

(43:47) American Family Radio kicks off Truth for Youth Bible Week with Tim Todd