Everyday Preborn Network helps mothers facing unexpected pregnancies discover hope through ultrasound
Dr. Jessica Peck: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection. And the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound250 and say the keyword baby or visit preborn.com/AFR this year, America celebrates its 250th birthday. Two and a half centuries of courage, innovation, faith and freedom. But what will the next 250 years hold? The next generation could hold the next Billy Graham, the next Rosa Parks, the next Ronald Reagan, the next child whose life will impact generations. But first they must be given the chance to live it. I couldn't imagine my life without him because of them. He's here. We're going to get through it and it's going to be okay. Everyday PreBorn Network clinics helps mothers facing unexpected pregnancies discover hope through a free ultrasound. When a mother sees her baby and hears that tiny heartbeat, her baby is twice as likely to be given the gift of life. What story will God write through America's next generation? In honor of America's 250th anniversary, we're asking friends to consider a special gift of $250. Your gift can help provide nearly nine life saving ultrasounds. Dial pound250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound250 Baby or donate securely at preborn.com/AFR that's preborn.com/AFR Every gift is tax- deductible. Hello and welcome to the doctor Nursemama show prescribing hope for healthy families here on American Family Radio. here's your host professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day. Getting to see spend time with you and prescribing hope for healthy families. I'm so glad that you are here.
We're talking about grief as the holiday season approaches
Wherever you're going, whatever you are doing, we are now after Labor Day it's officially fall. Even though here where I live in Texas it's still like 117 degrees. It feels like in the shade. But you know what? I'm still gonna drink all the pumpkin spice and do all of the things. But as we look ahead to the end of the year we are approaching that it is on the horizon and the holiday season is approach and this week especially is something that is on all of our Radar, we're all looking at the 25th anniversary of 911 that is going to happen this Friday. Now for those of us who were alive and old enough to remember that day, it seems just almost impossible, doesn't it, that it was 25 years ago. But this all wraps into what we're talking about today. We're talking about grief. And when we look at the holiday season especially we see grief expressed through 9 11. But we can see grief expressed also in the holiday season. It's often described as the most wonderful time of the year, but for a lot of people it can be complicated. And as Labor Day approach approaches and is now in our rear view wind mirror, a lot of people think, okay, I'm turning my attention toward that. And during that time, you know, we're surrounded by reminders of family and tradition and photographs and familiar recipes and family gathering around the table Christmas morning. Just songs that remind us of being together and celebrating together. And all those things are such beautiful things. But when someone we love is missing from those times, from those places, from those traditions, those very things that once brought us comfort can suddenly bring an ache that is really difficult to explain. And grief doesn't always follow the calendar.
Chelsea Ohlemiller explores what it means to live with grief after loss
And that's something that has really struck me as I've been watching the news coverage and the impending ceremonies for the anniversary of marking 9 11. When you see the families who were impacted who directly lost a loved one, it's 25 years later and yet their grief still feels so fresh. And you see the impacts on children. I've seen lots of interviews with children who were children at the time of 9 11. Some children who were not even born before their parent, their father, they lost their father or passed away, a relative, a close family friend. And you see those children growing up in the shadow of such great grief. And it's a good reminder for us that grief is something that, that really changes us permanently. It's not something that just comes and goes. It's not something that's linear. And I feel like as we collectively, as society learned about the stages of grief, you know, denial, all, all of those anger, all of those kinds of things, we kind of transl our mind to grief being a linear journey. But it is not like that. It is really messy and it's loopy and it's back and forth. And some days it's good and some days it's not. And unexpected things can unexpectedly make it all of a sudden just seem so fresh. Sometimes it may be a loss that happened recently. This may be Your first holiday season without someone you love. It may be the first holiday season for someone you love without there's someone you love, and you're walking them in that grief journey. Or it could be grief that is, like 9, 11, that's 25 years old and still just an ache, a familiar ache that so many carry. And something. There's something different about the way that grief can bring things rushing back. You know, you. You just see something that's different. But you don't have to be the person grieving to need this conversation again. Maybe you're walking alongside someone. That is the testimony of Chelsea Ohlemiller and she explores it in her new book, Legacy After Loss, the sacred work of remembering, rebuilding, and enduring through Grief. And some of you may remember Chelsa was on the show before and talked about the loss of her mother and is one of those shows that really just stuck with me down in the core of my soul because she was so authentic and just so sincere and sharing her grief journey. And she discovered that grief isn't something that we just get over. And her book explores what it. What does it mean now to live with grief, to carry that love forward and to rediscover meaning and honor the legacy of those precious, precious people we've lost. Anytime I see someone who is really grieving the loss of someone, I really think how beautiful, how beautiful to have something so precious that it is worthy of grieving in that manner. And sometimes grief is more complicated than that. But Chelsea's gonna step into the middle of that conversation with us.
Chelsea talks about grief nine years after losing her mother in new book
Chelsea, I'm so glad that you came. Thank you so much for stopping by this week and spending time with us to minister to our hearts.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: Thank you for having me. It's such an honor to join you again and just to have this meaningful and important conversation, because grief is, you know, such a universal concept we don't really talk about enough.
Dr. Jessica Peck: We really don't. And when we talked before, you and I, we talked kind of about that fresh sense of grief of after losing your mother. And. And I had told you at the time I bought that book, I gave it to my siblings because we were grieving the loss of our grandmother at that time. And this new book that you have, I'm so glad to see you continuing to talk about it. It's really kind of the after. So can you give us an update? How have things been going? How has the Lord led you to continue this ministry and in speaking to people who are grieving.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: Yeah, you. You know, it really you said something profound in the opening. You said, you know, with 911 and all of these things, that people are living in the shadow of great grief. And that speaks so much to where I was and also how I got to where I am today. And that's through years and just processing and talking about this. It has allowed me to not only recognize the shadow of grief, but also that the shadow of grief is only there because there was a light so bright before of love and influence and inspiration. And so now, nine years in, you know, after losing my mother, I'm able to see that again. I'm able to see that hope still exists, that my faith, which I thought was gone, was actually just being challenged and really just step into understanding that life can still be beautiful, even though it looks different than what I planned and recognizing the beautiful things that exist, you know?
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Chelsea, I'm going to turn it right back on you because I think you just said something really profound. You just said nine years in, not nine years out, nine years past. You just said nine years in. And it's nine years in to your new reality. And you write in this book that there's no going back to the before. You know, that. That it's like the before and after moment. We've talked about that, but you've talked about what you call version two, becoming again. What does it look like to be nine years in? And like I said, we see all of these people grieving. 9 11. They're 25 years in now. What does it look like to go into that after. Into that new place?
Chelsea Ohlemiller: It really is just, you know, the best way to describe it is that, you know, as a woman, we think, you know, when you hit a certain age, that you stop changing, you stop doing things in a certain way, you stop developing. And really, it's proven that that's not true. You. You are always becoming. You're always transitioning to the next thing, and evolving. And I've just had to realize that through the years that, you know, I am not a stagnant person with a stagnant story. I am constantly evolving through pain, through heartbreak, but also through things like hope and inspiration and love. And that it's really just this merge of all those things that keeps me stepping forward. And I say in, because that's exactly what it is. You know, people think that the first year is the hardest or if you can just get past a certain moment. And I found that that's just. Hasn't been the case for me, that it's a Constant in of it, you know, like a labyrinth. It's not some. Some timeline that's pretty. You know, it's a little bit messy work, but that we're constantly in it. but the end is what's beautiful. You can be grieving and also living with content, happiness and joy and all of those beautiful things. And so it's really just stepping into. I'm hurting, and I long for my mom, and also I have so many things that I'm grateful for in this life right now.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah, I definitely experienced that, and the loss of my granny. And, you know, you would think, like, okay, all right, time is going on. It's. It's, you know, getting a little bit better. It's easing. But then my children would have a new milestone that we hadn't had before, and. And she wouldn't be there. And I would think, oh, I imagined her being this milestone, and I didn't anticipate this to, you know, really, like, give me a little side trail here of grief. And that definitely can happen.
Chelsea talks about the difference between surviving and thriving after losing her mom
But one of the most compelling and encouraging things about your work, Chelsea, is that you. You distinguish between just, like, simply surviving. Like, and some days, that's where it is, and especially in those early days, but in this, after. In this new, new season, or you, talk about the difference between surviving and thriving, actually living a flourishing life, what does that look like on, that continuum? Is that feel linear to you, or is that also a messy, parallel journey?
Chelsea Ohlemiller: Yeah, I think, just like you said it, it's a messy, parallel journey, because at first, I think the goal is just surviving, getting up and doing the next day, the next task, the next responsibility. And then you realize, you know, years later, that's not enough. You know, this is also the only life I get. And simply surviving is doing a disservice to not only myself in this one beautiful life that I get, but also everybody that I love, because, you know, I need to show up for them in a way that's meaningful, too, because that's why my mom is so memorable and so missed, because her life was so bold in how she loved and how she influenced people. And so I think that in realizing, you know, it's kind of a responsibility, we have to step up and say, I want to live this day. I don't want to just survive. And there are days still nine years in that that's a challenge, and I don't get a lot accomplished, and I cry, and, you know, I'm emotional, and that's okay. And I just know That I don't want to stay there the next day or the next. And so it's kind of, a personal challenge to whatever moment I'm in, to meet myself in that moment, but to let myself recognize I don't want to stay there.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, what would you say to somebody who, who feels stuck in that, who just feels like, yeah, I don't want to stay there either. But I, I've been sitting in this rut for quite a while, and it just feels like you just can't see the way to claw yourself out. Like, you just, you, you, you lose hope. How. How do you regain hope and take that first step forward? What, what does that look like?
Chelsea Ohlemiller: I think for me, that's a really complicated question because it's so unique. But for me, I think I realized that heartbreak is always there. Pain is always there. They are very loud in their influence and their dominance on life. And hope is there too. But I just had to choose it. I had to actively choose it. And so what I say to people a lot is that I'm only able to say these things because, again, it's been nine years since losing my mom. But you have to one day choose hope. And that doesn't mean you choose it big and you write a book or, you know, you run a marathon. It's little hope. And if you can't find it, because right now, like you said, some of these people probably, they don't see it. They don't, they don't know it's there. Have somebody near you that sees it for you until you can see it again yourself, surround yourself with people that can hold your hope, your faith, your patience, your comfort when you can't have those things yourself.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I'm just, I'm, so grateful in the midst of grief. I, I am grateful for my faith. I'm grateful that I don't grieve as those who have no hope. But that's really, it's really thought provoking, honestly, Chelsea, to think, yeah, you have to choose it. You have to choose it. And again, even in the choosing, I think it can be messy. And sometimes I feel like I have a little back and forth fourth tug of war with the Lord. You know, I'm like, okay, God, I'm gonna give this to you. Wait, I, I need to hold it for just, just, just a minute. Just let me. Hold it for me. Okay, fine. You can have it back. No, I, I, I need to hold on to that. I really do feel like sometimes that's the way that grief goes. But I'm grateful that we can grieve with hope. And I think that's the biggest takeaway from us. And something that has really resonated with me as I told you at the beginning of the show, that there's no universal timeline for grief. And I, I, I don't know, Chelsea, just watching some of these sort survivor stories and, and stories of people who lost on 9 11. It has just I've had to keep a box of tissues right next to the television of I'm walking, watching the news or scrolling it on my phone because it's so tough. But moving forward doesn't mean leaving someone behind. The goal is not to erase the loss or to get over it, but how do we live faithfully and meaningfully in the last life that exists now? And that's an important word for anybody who maybe even feels guilty because you're starting to flourish, you're starting to laugh again or celebrate again or experience joy again. Grief and joy are not enemies. Sometimes they hold hands. And when we come back, we'll talk about how remembering is such an important part of healing. We'll be right back on the other side of this break.
Without people like you, this podcast would not exist
Dr. Jessica Peck: Hello, I'm Jessica peck, host of Dr. Nursemama. Did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. And that's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast. Please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.net/give that's afr.net/give
Thy Will by Hillary Scott and The Scott Family: I'm so confused. I, know I heard you loud and clear, so, I follow through. Somehow I ended up here. I don't want to think I may never understand that my broken heart is a part of your plan. When I try to pray, all I got is her. And these four words. Thy will be done. Thy will be done. Thy will be done.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Thy Will by Hillary Scott and the Scott family.
Chelsea Ohlemiller wrote a book about losing her mother
That is such a tough song, isn't it? If you. It really is. It's one thing to say a little rope prayer and to say that will be done, but when God's will involves not granting prayers for healing here on earth and those prayers are answered as heavenly healing, that can be one of the toughest things ever to say and accept the sovereignty of God and things that we just don't understand. And I'm talking today to Chelsea Ohlemiller who wrote a book about her about losing her mother and the grief that she experienced. And today she's releasing a follow up of that. It's called legacy after loss, the sacred work of remembering, rebuilding, and enduring through grief. And one of the things that really stands out, Chelsa, is that you're not suggesting that healing means forgetting. Like, time dulls that memory, and you can kind of move on in your new life. In fact, you use language of, remembering deeply and loving forward. And in looking forward, we're looking forward to the holidays. And it's just always a tough time, Chelsea. It's always a tough time for people who have lost people. And it doesn't matter if it's the first Christmas or the 10th Christmas or the 50th even. And, you know, I remember I've talked to widows and widowers who lost their spouses so many years ago and still just talk about just that kind of bittersweet moment of having that. And there's traditions and their memories and their wonderful. And they're beautiful. And they can also be painful reminders of who's missing and what are the beautiful ways that we keep someone's story alive. So, Chelsa, I really want to talk to you, more about this because. Talk to us.
What does it mean to love forward and remember deeply?
Well, talk to us first about what does it mean to love forward and remember deeply.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: Well, I think, you know, sometimes in. In the midst of grief and also people that are surrounded by people that are grieving, we think that when a life ends or death happens, that love also stops. And that that just is not the case. And so loving forward and remembering forward is just. We can carry all the people that we love that we've lost with us into each new thing that we do. Again, it looks different, but it can still be a meaningful thing. It's about finding ways to keep that relationship alive. Not in the physical sense, but really in. In the spiritual sense, in the, you know, acknowledging that memories can be both painful and also a, beautiful sense of reminiscence and just trying to carry that forward with us. You know, carrying the great things forward, the memories forward, while acknowledging there will be no new memories and holding both of those things at the same time. And I think the other part of loving, forward and remembering forward is, is when you're surrounded by people who are missing other people, you know, showing up for them with intentional thoughts of comfort and help, not just in the, you know, things that we say to grieving people, but actually having action behind them to allow them to continue loving and living forward through grief, through everything.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, not too long ago, I was at a big policy event. I teach health policy. And so I go to those events from time to time. And I was at this really large event, and I felt, a familiar voice, and somebody tapped my shoulder, and it was somebody that I had known for a really long time and gone to church with for a long time. And she had asked me about a community event, if I was going. And she said. And she said my grandmother's name. She goes, oh, well, your grandmother, she would be so happy that you would be there. And she said her name, and she just brought her presence to that. It made me smile so big, Chelsa, just to see somebody who still had an active living memory of someone who was so special to me and then gave. Gave me the gift of that memory of her legacy, how she had impacted her life. And I think sometimes, you know, we, as people around that grieving journey, sometimes you just kind of almost treat it like it's taboo, like you don't want to say anything. But honestly, Chelsea, I haven't met many people who. Who are. Who say, oh, my gosh, I hope no one ever mentions the person that I lost today. I hope nobody says anything about them, because that's just going to be so painful. And I'm sure in some circumstances that can be. But most of the time, if you're saying something that is honoring their legacy and carrying that forward, you use the analogy in your book of carrying a baton forward and. And their memory is coming forward with you, even though their life has stopped. It was so beautiful. What. What insight do you have about speaking the legacy of someone else to. To someone who's lost someone, you know, bringing up that person that they have lost.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: There is no more beautiful thing than knowing my mother. And those I've lost are remembered beyond me because I clearly remember her every day. So I always tell people, please say her name. Please share her stories, because I. I think of her every day. But knowing that somebody else has remembered her and her life is such a gift, it brings her presence into a moment where she cannot be physically present. And that is a gift. And so people at first would be afraid to mention her and, in fear that it would make me sadder than I was or grieve again. And I always remind people, I'm already grieving. I do that differently in each moment. But you cannot make me more sad or feel more longing than I already do. So please, you know, mention the stories, say their names, because I want to know she's remembered beyond me. And the only Way that happens is when we keep talking about them and we keep sharing the things that made them so memorable.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you even have a chapter in your book called please Tell Them My Name, and just saying that over and over. And I remember when my great grandmother passed away, I remember she kept telling me, tell my grandkids and my great grandkids. I love them. And I said, yes, yes, I will tell them that. And she goes and keep on telling them and tell them and tell them and tell them again and keep telling them. And even now, you know, she has been with the Lord for many, many years. But my kids know her. They know stories of her. I feel like, you know, maybe this is just, me being wishful thinking, but I feel like if she walked in, they would know her. I feel like, because we've kept her memory alive by telling stories about her. And, so what are ways that you can intentionally remember their name? You know, what are ways that you can intentionally keep their memory alive?
Chelsea Ohlemiller: I mean, with. For my mother, it was baking, because she was such an incredible baker. And so keeping her alive through her recipes, and those different things. I think for my children, I did the same thing. So my aunt, after my mother passed away, made, years later, made each of my children a book that's filled with pictures of my mother. And just like you said, my youngest son never got to meet her, but he. If you talk to him, you would think that they sat in the same rooms.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I love that.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: And it's so beautiful. And I think that we do it in ways that are authentic to us, that make sense, you know, for some people that might be golfing or fishing for their dad, you know, just anything that brings you joy when you think about them in their moment. For my mom, that was also in the pews of our Catholic church. And so, you know, I always see her there and remember her there. And so I think it's, you know, finding that. That thing that you remember and smile immediately and figuring out how you can do that in your own life. To carry it forward, however, is meaningful for, you know, you and your family.
The big thing is just to talk about it, Chelsea
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah, it's so true, because every situation is different. But I think, you know, the. The big thing is just to talk about it, Chelsea, just to, not treat it as taboo. And. And the intention is good there, because often when we're on the outside of a grief journey, we don't want to cause pain. We. We. We see how much the person is hurting, and the last thing in the world that we want to do is cause them pain. But I think that there would be a low risk of pain in asking a question like, hey, I know that this holiday season might be hard for you, missing this person. What are ways that we can help honor their memory that would. That would encourage you and not, and. And not make you more sad? I mean, I think just having a conversation like that would be really beautiful because maybe there's an idea that they have. Maybe they think, oh, I want to read a letter, or everybody bring a letter that they brought to you, or, you know, just whatever you can do. Every fa. Again, every family is different. Maybe you each bring a different dish or you each tell a different memory or whatever that might be. But just opening the door to that conversation, I have found, Chelsa, that, when I've sat with, with families with groups that are brave enough to do that, that they have some of the most beautiful, beautiful moments together, but they just need somebody to initiate and take the lead and ask, do you think?
Chelsea Ohlemiller: Yes. And I think it's also about realizing who your grief is safe with. You know, there are people that you will feel safe enough to talk about this. And I always. I always make sure that I'm surrounded with people that are willing to sit in my light as much as my darkness. And so those are the people that I know I can share this depth of sorrow with. And like you said, you know, really just allowing us to talk about it in ways that don't feel like a responsibility or a weight, but rather one that's been lifted off of us to set us free of having to hide things for lack of comfortability, you know, and just really open up to continuing the remembrance in ways that feel like they honor and rather than, you know, create another responsibility, I think it's really helpful.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Just if you know that somebody's going to be grieving, all you have to do is just tell them something like this. They just say, hey, I know today may be tough for you. Just know this is a safe space. Come and go, grieve and rejoice as you please. There is no judgment. There is no expectation. We'll just accept you as you come, and we'll just deal with your emotions as they come. I think when you're talking to somebody that you're close to, somebody in your family, somebody you love, giving them that permission to have those emotions, especially when you're looking at starting to look forward to traditions or something special, a big event when they're not going to be there, that's really good. But Sometimes, Chelsa, one of the things that's hard is once you do start to enjoy everyday life again and you laugh and you can hold laughing and, and grieving at the same time. And, you know, I, I think one of the most famous movie scenes of that probably came, you know, we're talking about, Dolly Parton passing away and, and one of her most famous movies, of course, was Steel Magnolias. And a very famous scene during that movie where Milena is laughing and crying and wanting to punch her friend at the same time. And, you know, I'm just so mad. Those emotional scenes, that's a very raw depiction of grief. But when you're having that joy moment, how do you enjoy that without feeling guilty about it?
Chelsea Ohlemiller: I think you feel the guilt, you know, I think because it comes, comes and so rather than just saying, don't feel guilty, just say, oh, why am I feeling this way and acknowledging a little bit and saying, oh, okay. You know, I remember the first time I laughed after my mother had passed. I don't, I don't remember how many months it had been, but I felt immediately guilty. And then I cried. Just like that scene. You know, you're laughing, you're crying. And now we've come to call it. My husband will, will tell me we call that the laugh cry because they still happen now, years later. I'll laugh about something and then cry. And just knowing that that's okay, you can be both and guilt. You know, you can feel guilty and happy and sad and a million things all together. And that's okay because at the end of the day, it is love. At the end of the day, it is all of the great things that were in your life because of somebody that is unforgettable. And that's okay. If I have to feel the guilt, if I have to feel the joy and the pain and everything mixed together, that's okay, because it all means I loved my mother and she is missed fiercely.
Dr. Jessica Peck says it's difficult to grieve now in light of social media
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I think it's especially hard, it's hard to grieve now in the, in light of the, the of social media because your grieving journey often is so public and people hyper analyze your social media presence. So you could say, okay, well, I'm just not going to be on social media. Well, then they're like, oh, well, she's still not on social media. Or, you know, you post something good that happened. This is like, oh, okay, well, maybe they're getting better. Or you post something that you're sad and oh, they're still sad about that. I think that is one of the most difficult things to navigate because of just the societal discomfort with grief and wanting to kind of just move past it. And your discomfort is making me uncomfortable. And so how do you. Do you have any advice for that, navigating that, Chelsea? Because I think even. Especially at the holidays, that's a tough thing. You're scrolling through pictures, you see that person has their spouse, has their child, has, you know, their. Their mother has their sister, whoever it is. And, and. And I don't like. Just there's so much comparison that can happen. I feel like that's a trap. Do you have any words of advice or hope for that?
Chelsea Ohlemiller: Yeah, I think my biggest advice is to step away. You know, these are people's highlight reels. These are the trailers of people's life that are most often highlighting all the fabulous things, very rarely the hard and harsh realities of the lives we're living. And so it's okay to say, I don't want to get on today or tomorrow or the next day, because, you know, it. That is filling our mind with things like jealousy. And then we feel guilt because we're feeling jealous for moments not that you don't want them to have, but that you miss having yourself. And so we just really need to give ourselves grace. We're in a world, like you said, with social media and just all of the technology, where we're accessible to people at any time. And, just the reminder, you don't need to be accessible all the time. It's okay to step away and give yourself, you know, the time away from people and things.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And it's okay to reserve your emotional energy for the people who are most important to you and the people who need it most. That may be your children, that may be your spouse, that may be whoever you're doing caregiving for. Give yourself permission to have your own, own grief journey and release yourself from the expectations, it should look like somebody else thinks that it should look like. So if you want to say their name, say their name, tell the story, make a recipe, look at the pictures, don't look at the pictures, cry or laugh, whatever it is that you need to do. Don't be afraid to walk your own grief journey. And remembering isn't the opposite of moving forward. Remembering is how we move forward by carrying forward the legacy of the people we love. When we come back, we'll talk about therapy as a part of a healing journey. If that's for you, we'll be back with more help and Hope with Chelsea Ohlemiller
Paul says the Old Testament reveals salvation by faith in Jesus Christ
On the other side of this break,
Dr. Ligon Duncan: Doctor Ligon Duncan from the American Family Studios documentary the God who Speaks. Paul says, remember that the sacred Scriptures teach us the way of salvation, which is by faith in Christ. And in the first instance, Paul is talking about the Old Testament. So here's a New Testament letter written to a minister of the Word who already knows about the Word because he's been preaching the Word for maybe a decade and you. And yet Paul is exhorting him to continue in his high view of the Word and even reminding him that the Old Testament reveals salvation, which is by faith in Jesus Christ. And then in 2 Timothy 3:16, he unloads perhaps the greatest single verse in all the New Testament about the authority of scripture. All scripture is God breathed or breathed out of the mouth of God. Visit thegodwhospeaks.org.
I Will Rise by Chris Tomlin: There's, a peace I've come to know. Though my heart and flesh, may fail. Well, there's an anchor for my, soul. I can say it is, well, Jesus has overcome and the grave is, overwhelmed. The victory is won. He is risen from the dead. And I will rise when he calls my name. No more sorrow, no more pain. I, will rise all on eagle's wings before my God fall on my, knees and rise. I will rise.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is I Will Rise by Chris Tomlin. We're talking about something that's tough today. We're talking about grief carrying forward and living forward even after we experience loss. If you're like me, you've been seeing the images flood social media, television news, podcast media everywhere, talking about the upcoming 25th anniversary of 911 this week, which just seems impossible because that feels as fresh as it was yesterday. And when we see people who experienced loss on that day Talking about it 25 years later, you can still see the grief on their face. And grief changes us permanently, sometimes in a way that we wish that it wouldn't. But we do not grieve as a people who have no hope. Hope has a name, and that name is Jesus. And for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. And I remember in the first few days after losing my grandmother, with whom I was extremely close, I remember saying to my husband one day, how in the world will I live on without her? How will I live when she is not here? And I remember him saying, no, she is here. She is here. She lives on in you and in our children. And her legacy lives on. And you will see her again. And I know that I will. And we're talking today to someone who knows this path of grief very well. We're talking to Chelsea Ohlemiller. She's written a book, is her second book about grief. This one is called Legacy after Loss, the sacred work of remembering, rebuilding, and enduring through grief. And these are just really short. Each chapter is like a page, two pages, maybe three pages. It's just a little thought just to hold on to, just one. Walk carefully through that grief journey and it releases today. And if you are not going through a grief journey, you certainly know someone who is. And as we approach the holidays, or maybe you even know someone who is deeply impacted by 9 11, this would be a wonderful, beautiful thing to put this book in their hand and say, I just wanted to honor the loss that you have, the grief that you have. And Chelsea, I appreciate how honest your book is because you don't just give this neat and inspirational journey, like, five steps to overcome your grief and find your new life like, because it is really messy. And one of the things that you write very openly about is seeking professional support. And in one of the pieces you even describe, you know, sitting in the therapist waiting room and recognizing that, hey, everybody here is trying to heal and sometimes you need help outside of yourself. So what would you say to somebody who feels like. Like, I'm trying to handle it on my own and it's not going so well?
Chelsea Ohlemiller: I think I would ask them that first question, you know, how long have you been trying it on your own? And are you still in the same place that you were? And if you can confidently say, yes, I cannot do this on my own anymore, that is the first step, is just acknowledging that it's okay to get help. We cannot do everything. And even the most faithful people need assistance in their lives through hardships, and that's okay. That is not weakness. In fact, how strong is it to accept help and to seek help when you need it, whether it's through a friend or a therapist or even your pastor? I think that that is how I learned that strength is not exactly what you see on the comic books or on television. Strength is simply accepting help and understanding that people need it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Day.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I really encourage people. If you're experiencing significant grief, if you have lost someone really close to you, go as soon as you can to your primary care provider. I know that sounds so counterintuitive, but grief is a deeply Deeply physical experience. You can't eat, you can't sleep. You. You are often are dehydrated. You don't want to eat or drink anything. You're the stress that it puts on your heart, on your mind, on your body, the ways that you can't move in the way like you could before. Go see your primary care provider. Tell them, I've had this significant loss. Let them help you watch your health and tell you when you might need to connect to a therapist, when you might need medication, whatever it might be to help you through that grieving journey. It's really important. And you know, Chelsea, we have no problem doing that. If we have the flu or if we have an earache or something, you know, you'll call and say, oh, I need you to fix your. Fix this for me. But it's really important to have a primary care provider, you know, and you trust and who can connect you to someone like that. And the other thing that runs parallel to that is, I think people think it's either, you know, therapy or faith. Like those are two completely different things. Like, I need my faith and it needs to be stronger. And everything I need is, is in my faith and in the word of God. But also there are. There are wonderful therapists who will walk alongside that, and sometimes it's both. And, and, you know, faith runs, runs, runs throughout your book. But again, it's not a magic cure all. How do you hold that faith and grief together, believing God's promises while still saying, yeah, this. This is terrible, and I wish it hadn't happened.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: I think for me, like I said, you know, at first I thought I lost my faith, and then I realized that had been challenged. But what helped me is realizing I don't have to understand everything. I just need to know that God is with me in it. So I don't have to understand why my mother died at 57, before she met all of her grandchildren or had gray hair. But what I need to know is that whatever I'm in, God is with me in it, even if I don't understand why I'm in the situation that I am. And so that really changed everything for me. You know, when people would say everything happens for a reason, and I would say, what reason is good enough for them? You know, and not having answers. And then my faith reminded me I don't need all the answers. What I need to know is that God is with me in whatever I'm going through. And so I think that gave me a lot of freedom to Say I can have faith and other things. I can have faith and therapy. I can have faith and unanswered questions. I can have faith and a lot of other things because it's with me in everything that I do.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You can have faith, faith and tears. You can have faith and laughter. You can have, you know, like, you're so right, because it's just. It's about God being present. And I'm so. I'm so grateful, Chelsea, that our faith tells us that we do not have a savior who was unacquainted with sorrow and suffering. We have a God who knows that and somehow, in a way that we don't understand, will make all things right in the world. When all things there will be, oh, pain will be removed. There will be no tear. He will wipe the tears from our eyes. There'll be no heartache, no sadness, no grief. And that's the world that we long to go to. And I, I heard this when I was a teenager, and it really stuck with me that if God was small enough to be understood, he wouldn't be big enough to be worshiped.
Sometimes it's just about walking silently by someone grieving
And that's just the. The crux of the humanity that I have to sit in. And I think of those, Those verses from Job, like, where were you when I laid the foundation of the world? And I think, no, I wasn't there, and I wouldn't have understood was. But that's really hard. And sometimes, you know, when we're walking alongside someone who has. Is having a grieving journey, just like you said, you know, we'll. We treat it as our own little pop quiz. Like, oh, someone's grieving. Am I going to say the right verse? Am I going to say the. The right comforting thing? Oh, you know, God ha. Had a plan. It. They're in a better place. God needed another angel. Like, sometimes it's just about walking silently by them and just bearing witness to their grief. Yeah, yeah.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: Yes, yes. Just like you said, you know, those things stung when people would even quote the Bible or, or send me scriptures or say, you know, God needed another angel. What I wish they would have said instead was just, God is with you. God is with you. And that's it. That's so simple. But it. It takes away the thing. You know, I think sometimes the other phrases in scripture and, and, things. I think sometimes they diminish the pain that we're feeling and the lack of understanding of our circumstances. And instead, just somebody reminding me that God is with you in the pain. God is with you in this. In this grief and this sorrow, that is the comfort. And sometimes we try to get too fancy or we don't say anything at all. And I think for me, it was just, hey, God is with you.
Grief comes uninvited, but healing can only begin with an invitation
Dr. Jessica Peck: One of the most powerful things that you write about, I think, is that you talk about how grief comes uninvited. Nobody invites grief. No one wants grief at their table. In fact, you know that the anticipation of a loss that would cause that kind of grief is the fear that grips our heart. It is. It is a huge fear. And you. You say that grief, Grief is always going to come uninvited. But healing can only begin with an invitation. Healing will not come uninvited. And you talked about this before, choosing hope. How do you open the invitation to begin to heal? Because sometimes you can sit in grief so long, it feels so familiar that you don't know how to step forward.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: I think it's so. It's different for everybody, but really just having the. The daily challenge to yourself that you're going to do something different each day, in each moment to challenge yourself, that you're not staying in this space for long. And also just realizing that, you know, asking for help or seeking help, and then the biggest part of that is understanding that just like when we. When we date before we're married, you know, not every therapist or every person you seek is going to be helpful for you. And so finding that right fit, not just of community, but also of, you know, doctors and people that are in your orbit to say, this person is the right person for me, and just giving yourself permission to go where you need to go, not where society tells you you need to be or your friend thinks you should be a month or two or three years down the line, just knowing yourself well enough to advocate for yourself wherever you are. And that's where I tell people, you know, when. When they go through loss. Now I say, I'm here, however you need me, because everybody needs something a little bit different. Different.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It's so true. And the American association of Christian Counselors is a great resource. You can go to their website and they can help you find a Christian counselor to start that grieving journey. But you're so right, Chelsea. Sometimes it's just not the right fit. It's not the right personality. And that's okay. You need to find the right fit. And so sometimes it takes persistence in that way.
Chelsea is writing a book about her mother, who died nine years ago
And, Chelsea, as we're. We're ending our time together, I know how much you just loved your mother. And nine years in, you are still grieving and carrying her legacy forward. In writing this new book, what would you like to share about your mother? To honor her legacy, to celebrate her life and to bring her presence into this moment.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: I think the biggest thing is as my book releases today, I just wish I could thank her. I wish that I could tell her that every good piece of me is inspired and encouraged by her her still to this day. And to thank her for living in a way that makes her so unforgettable. And just to let her know and everyone know that, you know, that is what a legacy is. It's when we continue moving forward with all the pieces of the people that we've lost so that they may not be here anymore, but they are still in today, they will be in tomorrow, they will be in every day that I am in. And really just sitting in the hope that there is legacies because of beautiful people in our lives that make us want to continue and to remember forever.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's beautiful, Chelsea. Thank you so much. You know, when I think about, ah, parents watching the news this week and children who are going to hear about 911 for the first time or children who will experience grief vicariously through someone else, they will have a friend who will lose someone, they may lose a friend. It's so important to have honest conversation with kids about that and to have it in a developmentally appropriate way. But some of the things that you've said today, Chelsa, are so applicable. Just asking, just ask, even thinking specifically about 911 this week, as kids see images on the news, ask kids what do you know about it? And then listen to what they know, correct anything that is misinformation or that's not true or that's not accurate and ask them if they have any other questions that they maybe want you to answer and then ask how they're feeling about all of that information. How does that information make you feel? And then ask them what do you think that you can do to be a positive force in the world? Because a lot of times in the face of great sadness, God has equipped us for great encouragement. And it is amazing, to me how encouraging and inspirational kids can be. And so as you're having those conversations or if you are grieving, I'm so, I'm so sorry for the loss that you are feeling. And know that we, our hearts are with you today and we are praying for you and I'm praying for everybody that will all be a little more sensitive as we walk into this holiday season and that we can show people the hope, the joy and comfort of Christ. I pray, as I always do, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you, be gracious to you and give you peace even in the middle of great grief. I'll see you right here tomorrow.
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Everyday Preborn Network helps mothers facing unexpected pregnancies discover hope through ultrasound
Dr. Jessica Peck: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection. And the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound250 and say the keyword baby or visit preborn.com/AFR this year, America celebrates its 250th birthday. Two and a half centuries of courage, innovation, faith and freedom. But what will the next 250 years hold? The next generation could hold the next Billy Graham, the next Rosa Parks, the next Ronald Reagan, the next child whose life will impact generations. But first they must be given the chance to live it. I couldn't imagine my life without him because of them. He's here. We're going to get through it and it's going to be okay. Everyday PreBorn Network clinics helps mothers facing unexpected pregnancies discover hope through a free ultrasound. When a mother sees her baby and hears that tiny heartbeat, her baby is twice as likely to be given the gift of life. What story will God write through America's next generation? In honor of America's 250th anniversary, we're asking friends to consider a special gift of $250. Your gift can help provide nearly nine life saving ultrasounds. Dial pound250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound250 Baby or donate securely at preborn.com/AFR that's preborn.com/AFR Every gift is tax- deductible. Hello and welcome to the doctor Nursemama show prescribing hope for healthy families here on American Family Radio. here's your host professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day. Getting to see spend time with you and prescribing hope for healthy families. I'm so glad that you are here.
We're talking about grief as the holiday season approaches
Wherever you're going, whatever you are doing, we are now after Labor Day it's officially fall. Even though here where I live in Texas it's still like 117 degrees. It feels like in the shade. But you know what? I'm still gonna drink all the pumpkin spice and do all of the things. But as we look ahead to the end of the year we are approaching that it is on the horizon and the holiday season is approach and this week especially is something that is on all of our Radar, we're all looking at the 25th anniversary of 911 that is going to happen this Friday. Now for those of us who were alive and old enough to remember that day, it seems just almost impossible, doesn't it, that it was 25 years ago. But this all wraps into what we're talking about today. We're talking about grief. And when we look at the holiday season especially we see grief expressed through 9 11. But we can see grief expressed also in the holiday season. It's often described as the most wonderful time of the year, but for a lot of people it can be complicated. And as Labor Day approach approaches and is now in our rear view wind mirror, a lot of people think, okay, I'm turning my attention toward that. And during that time, you know, we're surrounded by reminders of family and tradition and photographs and familiar recipes and family gathering around the table Christmas morning. Just songs that remind us of being together and celebrating together. And all those things are such beautiful things. But when someone we love is missing from those times, from those places, from those traditions, those very things that once brought us comfort can suddenly bring an ache that is really difficult to explain. And grief doesn't always follow the calendar.
Chelsea Ohlemiller explores what it means to live with grief after loss
And that's something that has really struck me as I've been watching the news coverage and the impending ceremonies for the anniversary of marking 9 11. When you see the families who were impacted who directly lost a loved one, it's 25 years later and yet their grief still feels so fresh. And you see the impacts on children. I've seen lots of interviews with children who were children at the time of 9 11. Some children who were not even born before their parent, their father, they lost their father or passed away, a relative, a close family friend. And you see those children growing up in the shadow of such great grief. And it's a good reminder for us that grief is something that, that really changes us permanently. It's not something that just comes and goes. It's not something that's linear. And I feel like as we collectively, as society learned about the stages of grief, you know, denial, all, all of those anger, all of those kinds of things, we kind of transl our mind to grief being a linear journey. But it is not like that. It is really messy and it's loopy and it's back and forth. And some days it's good and some days it's not. And unexpected things can unexpectedly make it all of a sudden just seem so fresh. Sometimes it may be a loss that happened recently. This may be Your first holiday season without someone you love. It may be the first holiday season for someone you love without there's someone you love, and you're walking them in that grief journey. Or it could be grief that is, like 9, 11, that's 25 years old and still just an ache, a familiar ache that so many carry. And something. There's something different about the way that grief can bring things rushing back. You know, you. You just see something that's different. But you don't have to be the person grieving to need this conversation again. Maybe you're walking alongside someone. That is the testimony of Chelsea Ohlemiller and she explores it in her new book, Legacy After Loss, the sacred work of remembering, rebuilding, and enduring through Grief. And some of you may remember Chelsa was on the show before and talked about the loss of her mother and is one of those shows that really just stuck with me down in the core of my soul because she was so authentic and just so sincere and sharing her grief journey. And she discovered that grief isn't something that we just get over. And her book explores what it. What does it mean now to live with grief, to carry that love forward and to rediscover meaning and honor the legacy of those precious, precious people we've lost. Anytime I see someone who is really grieving the loss of someone, I really think how beautiful, how beautiful to have something so precious that it is worthy of grieving in that manner. And sometimes grief is more complicated than that. But Chelsea's gonna step into the middle of that conversation with us.
Chelsea talks about grief nine years after losing her mother in new book
Chelsea, I'm so glad that you came. Thank you so much for stopping by this week and spending time with us to minister to our hearts.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: Thank you for having me. It's such an honor to join you again and just to have this meaningful and important conversation, because grief is, you know, such a universal concept we don't really talk about enough.
Dr. Jessica Peck: We really don't. And when we talked before, you and I, we talked kind of about that fresh sense of grief of after losing your mother. And. And I had told you at the time I bought that book, I gave it to my siblings because we were grieving the loss of our grandmother at that time. And this new book that you have, I'm so glad to see you continuing to talk about it. It's really kind of the after. So can you give us an update? How have things been going? How has the Lord led you to continue this ministry and in speaking to people who are grieving.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: Yeah, you. You know, it really you said something profound in the opening. You said, you know, with 911 and all of these things, that people are living in the shadow of great grief. And that speaks so much to where I was and also how I got to where I am today. And that's through years and just processing and talking about this. It has allowed me to not only recognize the shadow of grief, but also that the shadow of grief is only there because there was a light so bright before of love and influence and inspiration. And so now, nine years in, you know, after losing my mother, I'm able to see that again. I'm able to see that hope still exists, that my faith, which I thought was gone, was actually just being challenged and really just step into understanding that life can still be beautiful, even though it looks different than what I planned and recognizing the beautiful things that exist, you know?
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Chelsea, I'm going to turn it right back on you because I think you just said something really profound. You just said nine years in, not nine years out, nine years past. You just said nine years in. And it's nine years in to your new reality. And you write in this book that there's no going back to the before. You know, that. That it's like the before and after moment. We've talked about that, but you've talked about what you call version two, becoming again. What does it look like to be nine years in? And like I said, we see all of these people grieving. 9 11. They're 25 years in now. What does it look like to go into that after. Into that new place?
Chelsea Ohlemiller: It really is just, you know, the best way to describe it is that, you know, as a woman, we think, you know, when you hit a certain age, that you stop changing, you stop doing things in a certain way, you stop developing. And really, it's proven that that's not true. You. You are always becoming. You're always transitioning to the next thing, and evolving. And I've just had to realize that through the years that, you know, I am not a stagnant person with a stagnant story. I am constantly evolving through pain, through heartbreak, but also through things like hope and inspiration and love. And that it's really just this merge of all those things that keeps me stepping forward. And I say in, because that's exactly what it is. You know, people think that the first year is the hardest or if you can just get past a certain moment. And I found that that's just. Hasn't been the case for me, that it's a Constant in of it, you know, like a labyrinth. It's not some. Some timeline that's pretty. You know, it's a little bit messy work, but that we're constantly in it. but the end is what's beautiful. You can be grieving and also living with content, happiness and joy and all of those beautiful things. And so it's really just stepping into. I'm hurting, and I long for my mom, and also I have so many things that I'm grateful for in this life right now.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah, I definitely experienced that, and the loss of my granny. And, you know, you would think, like, okay, all right, time is going on. It's. It's, you know, getting a little bit better. It's easing. But then my children would have a new milestone that we hadn't had before, and. And she wouldn't be there. And I would think, oh, I imagined her being this milestone, and I didn't anticipate this to, you know, really, like, give me a little side trail here of grief. And that definitely can happen.
Chelsea talks about the difference between surviving and thriving after losing her mom
But one of the most compelling and encouraging things about your work, Chelsea, is that you. You distinguish between just, like, simply surviving. Like, and some days, that's where it is, and especially in those early days, but in this, after. In this new, new season, or you, talk about the difference between surviving and thriving, actually living a flourishing life, what does that look like on, that continuum? Is that feel linear to you, or is that also a messy, parallel journey?
Chelsea Ohlemiller: Yeah, I think, just like you said it, it's a messy, parallel journey, because at first, I think the goal is just surviving, getting up and doing the next day, the next task, the next responsibility. And then you realize, you know, years later, that's not enough. You know, this is also the only life I get. And simply surviving is doing a disservice to not only myself in this one beautiful life that I get, but also everybody that I love, because, you know, I need to show up for them in a way that's meaningful, too, because that's why my mom is so memorable and so missed, because her life was so bold in how she loved and how she influenced people. And so I think that in realizing, you know, it's kind of a responsibility, we have to step up and say, I want to live this day. I don't want to just survive. And there are days still nine years in that that's a challenge, and I don't get a lot accomplished, and I cry, and, you know, I'm emotional, and that's okay. And I just know That I don't want to stay there the next day or the next. And so it's kind of, a personal challenge to whatever moment I'm in, to meet myself in that moment, but to let myself recognize I don't want to stay there.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, what would you say to somebody who, who feels stuck in that, who just feels like, yeah, I don't want to stay there either. But I, I've been sitting in this rut for quite a while, and it just feels like you just can't see the way to claw yourself out. Like, you just, you, you, you lose hope. How. How do you regain hope and take that first step forward? What, what does that look like?
Chelsea Ohlemiller: I think for me, that's a really complicated question because it's so unique. But for me, I think I realized that heartbreak is always there. Pain is always there. They are very loud in their influence and their dominance on life. And hope is there too. But I just had to choose it. I had to actively choose it. And so what I say to people a lot is that I'm only able to say these things because, again, it's been nine years since losing my mom. But you have to one day choose hope. And that doesn't mean you choose it big and you write a book or, you know, you run a marathon. It's little hope. And if you can't find it, because right now, like you said, some of these people probably, they don't see it. They don't, they don't know it's there. Have somebody near you that sees it for you until you can see it again yourself, surround yourself with people that can hold your hope, your faith, your patience, your comfort when you can't have those things yourself.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I'm just, I'm, so grateful in the midst of grief. I, I am grateful for my faith. I'm grateful that I don't grieve as those who have no hope. But that's really, it's really thought provoking, honestly, Chelsea, to think, yeah, you have to choose it. You have to choose it. And again, even in the choosing, I think it can be messy. And sometimes I feel like I have a little back and forth fourth tug of war with the Lord. You know, I'm like, okay, God, I'm gonna give this to you. Wait, I, I need to hold it for just, just, just a minute. Just let me. Hold it for me. Okay, fine. You can have it back. No, I, I, I need to hold on to that. I really do feel like sometimes that's the way that grief goes. But I'm grateful that we can grieve with hope. And I think that's the biggest takeaway from us. And something that has really resonated with me as I told you at the beginning of the show, that there's no universal timeline for grief. And I, I, I don't know, Chelsea, just watching some of these sort survivor stories and, and stories of people who lost on 9 11. It has just I've had to keep a box of tissues right next to the television of I'm walking, watching the news or scrolling it on my phone because it's so tough. But moving forward doesn't mean leaving someone behind. The goal is not to erase the loss or to get over it, but how do we live faithfully and meaningfully in the last life that exists now? And that's an important word for anybody who maybe even feels guilty because you're starting to flourish, you're starting to laugh again or celebrate again or experience joy again. Grief and joy are not enemies. Sometimes they hold hands. And when we come back, we'll talk about how remembering is such an important part of healing. We'll be right back on the other side of this break.
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Thy Will by Hillary Scott and The Scott Family: I'm so confused. I, know I heard you loud and clear, so, I follow through. Somehow I ended up here. I don't want to think I may never understand that my broken heart is a part of your plan. When I try to pray, all I got is her. And these four words. Thy will be done. Thy will be done. Thy will be done.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Thy Will by Hillary Scott and the Scott family.
Chelsea Ohlemiller wrote a book about losing her mother
That is such a tough song, isn't it? If you. It really is. It's one thing to say a little rope prayer and to say that will be done, but when God's will involves not granting prayers for healing here on earth and those prayers are answered as heavenly healing, that can be one of the toughest things ever to say and accept the sovereignty of God and things that we just don't understand. And I'm talking today to Chelsea Ohlemiller who wrote a book about her about losing her mother and the grief that she experienced. And today she's releasing a follow up of that. It's called legacy after loss, the sacred work of remembering, rebuilding, and enduring through grief. And one of the things that really stands out, Chelsa, is that you're not suggesting that healing means forgetting. Like, time dulls that memory, and you can kind of move on in your new life. In fact, you use language of, remembering deeply and loving forward. And in looking forward, we're looking forward to the holidays. And it's just always a tough time, Chelsea. It's always a tough time for people who have lost people. And it doesn't matter if it's the first Christmas or the 10th Christmas or the 50th even. And, you know, I remember I've talked to widows and widowers who lost their spouses so many years ago and still just talk about just that kind of bittersweet moment of having that. And there's traditions and their memories and their wonderful. And they're beautiful. And they can also be painful reminders of who's missing and what are the beautiful ways that we keep someone's story alive. So, Chelsa, I really want to talk to you, more about this because. Talk to us.
What does it mean to love forward and remember deeply?
Well, talk to us first about what does it mean to love forward and remember deeply.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: Well, I think, you know, sometimes in. In the midst of grief and also people that are surrounded by people that are grieving, we think that when a life ends or death happens, that love also stops. And that that just is not the case. And so loving forward and remembering forward is just. We can carry all the people that we love that we've lost with us into each new thing that we do. Again, it looks different, but it can still be a meaningful thing. It's about finding ways to keep that relationship alive. Not in the physical sense, but really in. In the spiritual sense, in the, you know, acknowledging that memories can be both painful and also a, beautiful sense of reminiscence and just trying to carry that forward with us. You know, carrying the great things forward, the memories forward, while acknowledging there will be no new memories and holding both of those things at the same time. And I think the other part of loving, forward and remembering forward is, is when you're surrounded by people who are missing other people, you know, showing up for them with intentional thoughts of comfort and help, not just in the, you know, things that we say to grieving people, but actually having action behind them to allow them to continue loving and living forward through grief, through everything.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, not too long ago, I was at a big policy event. I teach health policy. And so I go to those events from time to time. And I was at this really large event, and I felt, a familiar voice, and somebody tapped my shoulder, and it was somebody that I had known for a really long time and gone to church with for a long time. And she had asked me about a community event, if I was going. And she said. And she said my grandmother's name. She goes, oh, well, your grandmother, she would be so happy that you would be there. And she said her name, and she just brought her presence to that. It made me smile so big, Chelsa, just to see somebody who still had an active living memory of someone who was so special to me and then gave. Gave me the gift of that memory of her legacy, how she had impacted her life. And I think sometimes, you know, we, as people around that grieving journey, sometimes you just kind of almost treat it like it's taboo, like you don't want to say anything. But honestly, Chelsea, I haven't met many people who. Who are. Who say, oh, my gosh, I hope no one ever mentions the person that I lost today. I hope nobody says anything about them, because that's just going to be so painful. And I'm sure in some circumstances that can be. But most of the time, if you're saying something that is honoring their legacy and carrying that forward, you use the analogy in your book of carrying a baton forward and. And their memory is coming forward with you, even though their life has stopped. It was so beautiful. What. What insight do you have about speaking the legacy of someone else to. To someone who's lost someone, you know, bringing up that person that they have lost.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: There is no more beautiful thing than knowing my mother. And those I've lost are remembered beyond me because I clearly remember her every day. So I always tell people, please say her name. Please share her stories, because I. I think of her every day. But knowing that somebody else has remembered her and her life is such a gift, it brings her presence into a moment where she cannot be physically present. And that is a gift. And so people at first would be afraid to mention her and, in fear that it would make me sadder than I was or grieve again. And I always remind people, I'm already grieving. I do that differently in each moment. But you cannot make me more sad or feel more longing than I already do. So please, you know, mention the stories, say their names, because I want to know she's remembered beyond me. And the only Way that happens is when we keep talking about them and we keep sharing the things that made them so memorable.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you even have a chapter in your book called please Tell Them My Name, and just saying that over and over. And I remember when my great grandmother passed away, I remember she kept telling me, tell my grandkids and my great grandkids. I love them. And I said, yes, yes, I will tell them that. And she goes and keep on telling them and tell them and tell them and tell them again and keep telling them. And even now, you know, she has been with the Lord for many, many years. But my kids know her. They know stories of her. I feel like, you know, maybe this is just, me being wishful thinking, but I feel like if she walked in, they would know her. I feel like, because we've kept her memory alive by telling stories about her. And, so what are ways that you can intentionally remember their name? You know, what are ways that you can intentionally keep their memory alive?
Chelsea Ohlemiller: I mean, with. For my mother, it was baking, because she was such an incredible baker. And so keeping her alive through her recipes, and those different things. I think for my children, I did the same thing. So my aunt, after my mother passed away, made, years later, made each of my children a book that's filled with pictures of my mother. And just like you said, my youngest son never got to meet her, but he. If you talk to him, you would think that they sat in the same rooms.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I love that.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: And it's so beautiful. And I think that we do it in ways that are authentic to us, that make sense, you know, for some people that might be golfing or fishing for their dad, you know, just anything that brings you joy when you think about them in their moment. For my mom, that was also in the pews of our Catholic church. And so, you know, I always see her there and remember her there. And so I think it's, you know, finding that. That thing that you remember and smile immediately and figuring out how you can do that in your own life. To carry it forward, however, is meaningful for, you know, you and your family.
The big thing is just to talk about it, Chelsea
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah, it's so true, because every situation is different. But I think, you know, the. The big thing is just to talk about it, Chelsea, just to, not treat it as taboo. And. And the intention is good there, because often when we're on the outside of a grief journey, we don't want to cause pain. We. We. We see how much the person is hurting, and the last thing in the world that we want to do is cause them pain. But I think that there would be a low risk of pain in asking a question like, hey, I know that this holiday season might be hard for you, missing this person. What are ways that we can help honor their memory that would. That would encourage you and not, and. And not make you more sad? I mean, I think just having a conversation like that would be really beautiful because maybe there's an idea that they have. Maybe they think, oh, I want to read a letter, or everybody bring a letter that they brought to you, or, you know, just whatever you can do. Every fa. Again, every family is different. Maybe you each bring a different dish or you each tell a different memory or whatever that might be. But just opening the door to that conversation, I have found, Chelsa, that, when I've sat with, with families with groups that are brave enough to do that, that they have some of the most beautiful, beautiful moments together, but they just need somebody to initiate and take the lead and ask, do you think?
Chelsea Ohlemiller: Yes. And I think it's also about realizing who your grief is safe with. You know, there are people that you will feel safe enough to talk about this. And I always. I always make sure that I'm surrounded with people that are willing to sit in my light as much as my darkness. And so those are the people that I know I can share this depth of sorrow with. And like you said, you know, really just allowing us to talk about it in ways that don't feel like a responsibility or a weight, but rather one that's been lifted off of us to set us free of having to hide things for lack of comfortability, you know, and just really open up to continuing the remembrance in ways that feel like they honor and rather than, you know, create another responsibility, I think it's really helpful.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Just if you know that somebody's going to be grieving, all you have to do is just tell them something like this. They just say, hey, I know today may be tough for you. Just know this is a safe space. Come and go, grieve and rejoice as you please. There is no judgment. There is no expectation. We'll just accept you as you come, and we'll just deal with your emotions as they come. I think when you're talking to somebody that you're close to, somebody in your family, somebody you love, giving them that permission to have those emotions, especially when you're looking at starting to look forward to traditions or something special, a big event when they're not going to be there, that's really good. But Sometimes, Chelsa, one of the things that's hard is once you do start to enjoy everyday life again and you laugh and you can hold laughing and, and grieving at the same time. And, you know, I, I think one of the most famous movie scenes of that probably came, you know, we're talking about, Dolly Parton passing away and, and one of her most famous movies, of course, was Steel Magnolias. And a very famous scene during that movie where Milena is laughing and crying and wanting to punch her friend at the same time. And, you know, I'm just so mad. Those emotional scenes, that's a very raw depiction of grief. But when you're having that joy moment, how do you enjoy that without feeling guilty about it?
Chelsea Ohlemiller: I think you feel the guilt, you know, I think because it comes, comes and so rather than just saying, don't feel guilty, just say, oh, why am I feeling this way and acknowledging a little bit and saying, oh, okay. You know, I remember the first time I laughed after my mother had passed. I don't, I don't remember how many months it had been, but I felt immediately guilty. And then I cried. Just like that scene. You know, you're laughing, you're crying. And now we've come to call it. My husband will, will tell me we call that the laugh cry because they still happen now, years later. I'll laugh about something and then cry. And just knowing that that's okay, you can be both and guilt. You know, you can feel guilty and happy and sad and a million things all together. And that's okay because at the end of the day, it is love. At the end of the day, it is all of the great things that were in your life because of somebody that is unforgettable. And that's okay. If I have to feel the guilt, if I have to feel the joy and the pain and everything mixed together, that's okay, because it all means I loved my mother and she is missed fiercely.
Dr. Jessica Peck says it's difficult to grieve now in light of social media
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I think it's especially hard, it's hard to grieve now in the, in light of the, the of social media because your grieving journey often is so public and people hyper analyze your social media presence. So you could say, okay, well, I'm just not going to be on social media. Well, then they're like, oh, well, she's still not on social media. Or, you know, you post something good that happened. This is like, oh, okay, well, maybe they're getting better. Or you post something that you're sad and oh, they're still sad about that. I think that is one of the most difficult things to navigate because of just the societal discomfort with grief and wanting to kind of just move past it. And your discomfort is making me uncomfortable. And so how do you. Do you have any advice for that, navigating that, Chelsea? Because I think even. Especially at the holidays, that's a tough thing. You're scrolling through pictures, you see that person has their spouse, has their child, has, you know, their. Their mother has their sister, whoever it is. And, and. And I don't like. Just there's so much comparison that can happen. I feel like that's a trap. Do you have any words of advice or hope for that?
Chelsea Ohlemiller: Yeah, I think my biggest advice is to step away. You know, these are people's highlight reels. These are the trailers of people's life that are most often highlighting all the fabulous things, very rarely the hard and harsh realities of the lives we're living. And so it's okay to say, I don't want to get on today or tomorrow or the next day, because, you know, it. That is filling our mind with things like jealousy. And then we feel guilt because we're feeling jealous for moments not that you don't want them to have, but that you miss having yourself. And so we just really need to give ourselves grace. We're in a world, like you said, with social media and just all of the technology, where we're accessible to people at any time. And, just the reminder, you don't need to be accessible all the time. It's okay to step away and give yourself, you know, the time away from people and things.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And it's okay to reserve your emotional energy for the people who are most important to you and the people who need it most. That may be your children, that may be your spouse, that may be whoever you're doing caregiving for. Give yourself permission to have your own, own grief journey and release yourself from the expectations, it should look like somebody else thinks that it should look like. So if you want to say their name, say their name, tell the story, make a recipe, look at the pictures, don't look at the pictures, cry or laugh, whatever it is that you need to do. Don't be afraid to walk your own grief journey. And remembering isn't the opposite of moving forward. Remembering is how we move forward by carrying forward the legacy of the people we love. When we come back, we'll talk about therapy as a part of a healing journey. If that's for you, we'll be back with more help and Hope with Chelsea Ohlemiller
Paul says the Old Testament reveals salvation by faith in Jesus Christ
On the other side of this break,
Dr. Ligon Duncan: Doctor Ligon Duncan from the American Family Studios documentary the God who Speaks. Paul says, remember that the sacred Scriptures teach us the way of salvation, which is by faith in Christ. And in the first instance, Paul is talking about the Old Testament. So here's a New Testament letter written to a minister of the Word who already knows about the Word because he's been preaching the Word for maybe a decade and you. And yet Paul is exhorting him to continue in his high view of the Word and even reminding him that the Old Testament reveals salvation, which is by faith in Jesus Christ. And then in 2 Timothy 3:16, he unloads perhaps the greatest single verse in all the New Testament about the authority of scripture. All scripture is God breathed or breathed out of the mouth of God. Visit thegodwhospeaks.org.
I Will Rise by Chris Tomlin: There's, a peace I've come to know. Though my heart and flesh, may fail. Well, there's an anchor for my, soul. I can say it is, well, Jesus has overcome and the grave is, overwhelmed. The victory is won. He is risen from the dead. And I will rise when he calls my name. No more sorrow, no more pain. I, will rise all on eagle's wings before my God fall on my, knees and rise. I will rise.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is I Will Rise by Chris Tomlin. We're talking about something that's tough today. We're talking about grief carrying forward and living forward even after we experience loss. If you're like me, you've been seeing the images flood social media, television news, podcast media everywhere, talking about the upcoming 25th anniversary of 911 this week, which just seems impossible because that feels as fresh as it was yesterday. And when we see people who experienced loss on that day Talking about it 25 years later, you can still see the grief on their face. And grief changes us permanently, sometimes in a way that we wish that it wouldn't. But we do not grieve as a people who have no hope. Hope has a name, and that name is Jesus. And for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. And I remember in the first few days after losing my grandmother, with whom I was extremely close, I remember saying to my husband one day, how in the world will I live on without her? How will I live when she is not here? And I remember him saying, no, she is here. She is here. She lives on in you and in our children. And her legacy lives on. And you will see her again. And I know that I will. And we're talking today to someone who knows this path of grief very well. We're talking to Chelsea Ohlemiller. She's written a book, is her second book about grief. This one is called Legacy after Loss, the sacred work of remembering, rebuilding, and enduring through grief. And these are just really short. Each chapter is like a page, two pages, maybe three pages. It's just a little thought just to hold on to, just one. Walk carefully through that grief journey and it releases today. And if you are not going through a grief journey, you certainly know someone who is. And as we approach the holidays, or maybe you even know someone who is deeply impacted by 9 11, this would be a wonderful, beautiful thing to put this book in their hand and say, I just wanted to honor the loss that you have, the grief that you have. And Chelsea, I appreciate how honest your book is because you don't just give this neat and inspirational journey, like, five steps to overcome your grief and find your new life like, because it is really messy. And one of the things that you write very openly about is seeking professional support. And in one of the pieces you even describe, you know, sitting in the therapist waiting room and recognizing that, hey, everybody here is trying to heal and sometimes you need help outside of yourself. So what would you say to somebody who feels like. Like, I'm trying to handle it on my own and it's not going so well?
Chelsea Ohlemiller: I think I would ask them that first question, you know, how long have you been trying it on your own? And are you still in the same place that you were? And if you can confidently say, yes, I cannot do this on my own anymore, that is the first step, is just acknowledging that it's okay to get help. We cannot do everything. And even the most faithful people need assistance in their lives through hardships, and that's okay. That is not weakness. In fact, how strong is it to accept help and to seek help when you need it, whether it's through a friend or a therapist or even your pastor? I think that that is how I learned that strength is not exactly what you see on the comic books or on television. Strength is simply accepting help and understanding that people need it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Day.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I really encourage people. If you're experiencing significant grief, if you have lost someone really close to you, go as soon as you can to your primary care provider. I know that sounds so counterintuitive, but grief is a deeply Deeply physical experience. You can't eat, you can't sleep. You. You are often are dehydrated. You don't want to eat or drink anything. You're the stress that it puts on your heart, on your mind, on your body, the ways that you can't move in the way like you could before. Go see your primary care provider. Tell them, I've had this significant loss. Let them help you watch your health and tell you when you might need to connect to a therapist, when you might need medication, whatever it might be to help you through that grieving journey. It's really important. And you know, Chelsea, we have no problem doing that. If we have the flu or if we have an earache or something, you know, you'll call and say, oh, I need you to fix your. Fix this for me. But it's really important to have a primary care provider, you know, and you trust and who can connect you to someone like that. And the other thing that runs parallel to that is, I think people think it's either, you know, therapy or faith. Like those are two completely different things. Like, I need my faith and it needs to be stronger. And everything I need is, is in my faith and in the word of God. But also there are. There are wonderful therapists who will walk alongside that, and sometimes it's both. And, and, you know, faith runs, runs, runs throughout your book. But again, it's not a magic cure all. How do you hold that faith and grief together, believing God's promises while still saying, yeah, this. This is terrible, and I wish it hadn't happened.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: I think for me, like I said, you know, at first I thought I lost my faith, and then I realized that had been challenged. But what helped me is realizing I don't have to understand everything. I just need to know that God is with me in it. So I don't have to understand why my mother died at 57, before she met all of her grandchildren or had gray hair. But what I need to know is that whatever I'm in, God is with me in it, even if I don't understand why I'm in the situation that I am. And so that really changed everything for me. You know, when people would say everything happens for a reason, and I would say, what reason is good enough for them? You know, and not having answers. And then my faith reminded me I don't need all the answers. What I need to know is that God is with me in whatever I'm going through. And so I think that gave me a lot of freedom to Say I can have faith and other things. I can have faith and therapy. I can have faith and unanswered questions. I can have faith and a lot of other things because it's with me in everything that I do.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You can have faith, faith and tears. You can have faith and laughter. You can have, you know, like, you're so right, because it's just. It's about God being present. And I'm so. I'm so grateful, Chelsea, that our faith tells us that we do not have a savior who was unacquainted with sorrow and suffering. We have a God who knows that and somehow, in a way that we don't understand, will make all things right in the world. When all things there will be, oh, pain will be removed. There will be no tear. He will wipe the tears from our eyes. There'll be no heartache, no sadness, no grief. And that's the world that we long to go to. And I, I heard this when I was a teenager, and it really stuck with me that if God was small enough to be understood, he wouldn't be big enough to be worshiped.
Sometimes it's just about walking silently by someone grieving
And that's just the. The crux of the humanity that I have to sit in. And I think of those, Those verses from Job, like, where were you when I laid the foundation of the world? And I think, no, I wasn't there, and I wouldn't have understood was. But that's really hard. And sometimes, you know, when we're walking alongside someone who has. Is having a grieving journey, just like you said, you know, we'll. We treat it as our own little pop quiz. Like, oh, someone's grieving. Am I going to say the right verse? Am I going to say the. The right comforting thing? Oh, you know, God ha. Had a plan. It. They're in a better place. God needed another angel. Like, sometimes it's just about walking silently by them and just bearing witness to their grief. Yeah, yeah.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: Yes, yes. Just like you said, you know, those things stung when people would even quote the Bible or, or send me scriptures or say, you know, God needed another angel. What I wish they would have said instead was just, God is with you. God is with you. And that's it. That's so simple. But it. It takes away the thing. You know, I think sometimes the other phrases in scripture and, and, things. I think sometimes they diminish the pain that we're feeling and the lack of understanding of our circumstances. And instead, just somebody reminding me that God is with you in the pain. God is with you in this. In this grief and this sorrow, that is the comfort. And sometimes we try to get too fancy or we don't say anything at all. And I think for me, it was just, hey, God is with you.
Grief comes uninvited, but healing can only begin with an invitation
Dr. Jessica Peck: One of the most powerful things that you write about, I think, is that you talk about how grief comes uninvited. Nobody invites grief. No one wants grief at their table. In fact, you know that the anticipation of a loss that would cause that kind of grief is the fear that grips our heart. It is. It is a huge fear. And you. You say that grief, Grief is always going to come uninvited. But healing can only begin with an invitation. Healing will not come uninvited. And you talked about this before, choosing hope. How do you open the invitation to begin to heal? Because sometimes you can sit in grief so long, it feels so familiar that you don't know how to step forward.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: I think it's so. It's different for everybody, but really just having the. The daily challenge to yourself that you're going to do something different each day, in each moment to challenge yourself, that you're not staying in this space for long. And also just realizing that, you know, asking for help or seeking help, and then the biggest part of that is understanding that just like when we. When we date before we're married, you know, not every therapist or every person you seek is going to be helpful for you. And so finding that right fit, not just of community, but also of, you know, doctors and people that are in your orbit to say, this person is the right person for me, and just giving yourself permission to go where you need to go, not where society tells you you need to be or your friend thinks you should be a month or two or three years down the line, just knowing yourself well enough to advocate for yourself wherever you are. And that's where I tell people, you know, when. When they go through loss. Now I say, I'm here, however you need me, because everybody needs something a little bit different. Different.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It's so true. And the American association of Christian Counselors is a great resource. You can go to their website and they can help you find a Christian counselor to start that grieving journey. But you're so right, Chelsea. Sometimes it's just not the right fit. It's not the right personality. And that's okay. You need to find the right fit. And so sometimes it takes persistence in that way.
Chelsea is writing a book about her mother, who died nine years ago
And, Chelsea, as we're. We're ending our time together, I know how much you just loved your mother. And nine years in, you are still grieving and carrying her legacy forward. In writing this new book, what would you like to share about your mother? To honor her legacy, to celebrate her life and to bring her presence into this moment.
Chelsea Ohlemiller: I think the biggest thing is as my book releases today, I just wish I could thank her. I wish that I could tell her that every good piece of me is inspired and encouraged by her her still to this day. And to thank her for living in a way that makes her so unforgettable. And just to let her know and everyone know that, you know, that is what a legacy is. It's when we continue moving forward with all the pieces of the people that we've lost so that they may not be here anymore, but they are still in today, they will be in tomorrow, they will be in every day that I am in. And really just sitting in the hope that there is legacies because of beautiful people in our lives that make us want to continue and to remember forever.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's beautiful, Chelsea. Thank you so much. You know, when I think about, ah, parents watching the news this week and children who are going to hear about 911 for the first time or children who will experience grief vicariously through someone else, they will have a friend who will lose someone, they may lose a friend. It's so important to have honest conversation with kids about that and to have it in a developmentally appropriate way. But some of the things that you've said today, Chelsa, are so applicable. Just asking, just ask, even thinking specifically about 911 this week, as kids see images on the news, ask kids what do you know about it? And then listen to what they know, correct anything that is misinformation or that's not true or that's not accurate and ask them if they have any other questions that they maybe want you to answer and then ask how they're feeling about all of that information. How does that information make you feel? And then ask them what do you think that you can do to be a positive force in the world? Because a lot of times in the face of great sadness, God has equipped us for great encouragement. And it is amazing, to me how encouraging and inspirational kids can be. And so as you're having those conversations or if you are grieving, I'm so, I'm so sorry for the loss that you are feeling. And know that we, our hearts are with you today and we are praying for you and I'm praying for everybody that will all be a little more sensitive as we walk into this holiday season and that we can show people the hope, the joy and comfort of Christ. I pray, as I always do, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you, be gracious to you and give you peace even in the middle of great grief. I'll see you right here tomorrow.
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Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Jessica talks with Chelsea Ohlemiller about remembering, rebuilding, and enduring through grief.
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Chapters:
(00:00) Everyday Preborn Network helps mothers facing unexpected pregnancies discover hope through ultrasound
(02:00) We're talking about grief as the holiday season approaches
(03:55) Chelsea Ohlemiller explores what it means to live with grief after loss
(07:03) Chelsea talks about grief nine years after losing her mother in new book
(11:30) Chelsea talks about the difference between surviving and thriving after losing her mom
(16:28) Without people like you, this podcast would not exist
(18:09) Chelsea Ohlemiller wrote a book about losing her mother
(19:58) What does it mean to love forward and remember deeply?
(26:05) The big thing is just to talk about it, Chelsea
(30:46) Dr. Jessica Peck says it's difficult to grieve now in light of social media
(33:50) Paul says the Old Testament reveals salvation by faith in Jesus Christ
(44:00) Sometimes it's just about walking silently by someone grieving
(45:31) Grief comes uninvited, but healing can only begin with an invitation
(47:46) Chelsea is writing a book about her mother, who died nine years ago
(51:02) Preborn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion
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