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Dr. Heather Holleman talks about middle school on American Family Radio
preborn.com/AFR hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing hope for
Dr. Jessica Peck: healthy families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you, prescribing hope for healthy families. And you know what? We got hope for today we have hope for something that can seem hopeless to a lot of people. I'm talking about middle school, middle school years. Do you remember your middle school years? I have yet to meet anyone who says, you know what? That was the time of m my life. If I could go back to any point in my life and relive any years, I would really Want to do middle school over again. If that's you out there, I'm so happy for you. But for most kids, it's such a tough time, and it's an even tougher time to grow up today, I think, than in generations past. Teenagers are competing with so many mixed messages and information overload and just the digital explosion that's happening in their life. And they're still asking in the midst of all of that cultural noise, who am I and what do I believe about myself to be true? What was I created for? What is my purpose? And these questions are so important because our kids are growing up in a culture today that's constantly trying to market things to them, constantly trying to generate discontent with some problem that maybe they didn't even know they had. So now they can be marketed a solution. And culture tells them to measure their worth by where they rank in the social ladder there, who likes them, how they look, what they accomplish. When we see the increase, increased professionalization of youth sports and other competitive things, how many friends they have. Because everybody knows now on your social media, you can see your friend count right there in front of for the world to see and how they present themselves online. This is image crafting. And middle school has always been a vulnerable season, and it still is, because kids are figuring out who they are and where they fit in and are they enough. And friendships, especially feel very high stakes. And I know there's a lot of parents out there, but especially mom out there, who are navigating all of the complexities of, middle school. Friendship and rejection just feels like the end of the world. And comparison just feels like an expectation now. And we are talking today to Dr. Heather Holleman. She has written a series of books for middle schoolers called Elita Brown Fiction. Now, we're in September now, and you guys know I have no shame in talking about Christmas. I love Christmas. You might be thinking about holiday shopping. If you have a middle schooler in your life, put this on your list. If you're a teacher or a librarian for middle school, if you're a church, group leader, put this on your holiday list. It's an a fiction series called Elita Brown, and it speaks directly into the question of do I have a place? And the series is written for middle grade readers to help them discover they are already seated at the best table with Jesus. And isn't that a message that every middle schooler needs to hear? Now, the first book this seat saved, which I have right here, I have it right here, was named Christianity Today's Book of the Year in the young adult category. And she has the fourth and final book. There's four of these. This last one is called this Seat's Yours. And it follows Elita through a summer filled with friendship, struggles and disappointment and trouble and adventure and a deeper understanding of forgiveness and love and dependence on God. And that's what makes our conversation so important today, because we don't want to just tell them, hey, don't worry about what other people think. I love you. I think you're the greatest. We want to give them a better place from which to understand this in a biblical worldview. We want them to know at a deep level, I was made by God. I belong to Jesus. I am loved by Him. I have a place at his table. And because I'm seated with Christ, I can be sent into the world to bless other people. So Dr. Holleman has joined us today. She is an academic. She is an author. She is just absolutely delightful, and I'm so excited for you to meet her. Heather, thank you so much for meeting with us today and, giving us some of your time. I'm so appreciative.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, I'm so excited to be on your program. This is going to be a great conversation, and I'm really grateful that you had me on.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, any person who says, like, yeah, I've got middle schoolers on my heart, I'm like, oh, you are my people. Like, you are just my people. Because that's a hard age to lean into. It can be intimidating. It can be overwhelming. It is just. It is a difficult age to navigate, and kids need some wisdom and encouragement coming their way.
Dr. Heather Holleman shares her personal testimony about ministry to middle schoolers
So before we jump in and talk about these books, Heather, let's talk about. About you and, and your personal testimony, how, you came to know the Lord and how he gave you a heart for middle schoolers and. And the platform that you have really to minister to them.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, I did pray to receive Christ when I was 12 years old because there was so much just difficulty happening in my life. That's when I became really passionate about reading the Bible and experiencing Jesus for myself. But I really didn't have great discipleship. I was involved in a youth group, but I really didn't know how to grow in my relationship with the Lord. So I really floundered through college at University of Vir. again, I was trying to walk with God, but I didn't have good discipleship. I didn't really have an understanding of the Holy Spirit or how to deal with sin in my life. And it really wasn't until graduate school when I got involved at the University of Michigan with a ministry called crew, which is Campus Crusade for Christ. That's where I really grew strong in my relationship with the Lord. And I realized that I just had major identity issues in Christ. I struggled with jealousy in comparison. I was someone who really didn't know I had a place at the table. So a lot of my ministry has to do with this idea that you said it best. You're already seated at the best table with Jesus. So I've had a long journey of just understanding my place at the table. I am an academic. I teach at Penn State, but I serve with my husband in the ministry we founded called Seated and Sent. So once you know you're seated with Jesus, he then sends you out on a supernatural adventure to lead others to Jesus.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is so encouraging. I mean, I feel encouraged already. People ask me, how do you find hope in the world? And it is through people like you. He not joking. Because just to see that, you know, God is at work all over and just calling so many people to spread encouragement, to give good news, to use their giftedness. I, I'm just all about it. I'm all for it. And when we think about middle school, I mean, all of us, anybody who went to school can remember the lunchroom drama, you know, walking in with the tray, especially on the first day. You're a new kid, you just had, you know, some shake up in your friend group and just looking around like, who am I gonna sit with? But you are giving this powerful phrase that kids are already seated with Christ. I'm picturing a kid in the lunchroom, you know, thinking, okay, I may not can find a seat in the lunchroom, but I'm seated with Christ. Give us, give us, an explanation of this really encouraging message. Tell us what, what, how should we communicate that to kids?
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, it originally started communicating it to women. And I was speaking at women's events on the power of Ephesians 2. 6, which just says, God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms of Christ Jesus. And I would tell women, look, you are already seated with Jesus. But I would go back, Jessica, to the moment in middle school. I said, look, this has probably been a wound from the time you were a little girl. How many of you all remember the middle school lunchroom? And women would just burst into tears. And I would give a, talk on what it means to know you're seated with Christ and heal that part of you that's always fighting for a seat at the table. And what happened, the miraculous thing that happened is my own daughter. As God was teaching me about Ephesians, my own daughter was experiencing lunchroom rejection in sixth grade. And I pulled her up on my lap and I read Ephesians 2 to her. And I said, look, I know that you don't feel like you have a seat at the table, but I want you to picture yourself seated with Jesus. He chose you for his table. So when you walk into that lunchroom, you don't have to think about the popular girls. You can say to yourself, jesus chose me. I am seated at the greatest table with the greatest king. And Even as an 11 year old girl, Sarah understood the power of that Image in Ephesians 2. It's my favorite chapter in the entire Bible. I think everyone should memorize Ephesians 2:1 10. But even teaching young children that image, you can use as an educator. I love that you're also an educator, Jessica. Like, I'm always reading. Like, how do you teach people? I helped Sarah. Picture it. My daughter Sarah, we used King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. I just said, what. What's coming to your mind when you read Ephesians 2:6. Because Paul is writing from a Roman prison, but he pictured himself, it's a past tense verb. He pictured himself as seated with Jesus even though he was physically in a terrible location. So I told my girls, no matter what's going on, I want you to picture yourself seated with Jesus. It's such a powerful image of belonging and inclusion. And it kind of fortifies a little young reader to know, okay, there's going to be a room where there are tables, and I'm going to get jealous. I'm going to compare my life. I'm going to feel rejected. What do I do? But the funny thing is, if you're listening and you're in your 50s like I am, I still deal with this every time I walk into a room. I walked into a faculty meeting the other day and I thought, oh, my gosh, I don't belong here. Do you know, even academics, we can get that feeling. But then I remember, wait, I'm already seated at the best table with Jesus. It just makes all the difference.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, Heather, that is so very true. And I remember having that conversation where my own daughter had the realization, and, oh, like, you're really old, mom, and you're still having these problems. Because it is true. It doesn't matter. You can Walk into, you know, the. The community sports league, and it's like, oh, they. They've got the nice car and the. And the nice house and everything together. And I don't know, like, how do I fit into there? Or, you know, whatever it is, whatever that insecurity is, these issues do not go away. And I think so often, Heather, as parents, we so often put our energy into trying to fix the circumstances, fix the situation. Like, okay, how can I help you fit in?
Those messages just delivered over and over will take root in their heart
How can I help you make a friend? How can I help you feel better about yourself? How can I help you buy some new clothes or join this team or those kinds of things? And we often lose sight of what you're saying. Those messages just delivered over and over, over time, will take root in their heart. You are already seated with Christ. You have everything that you need. Those things are so important, and sometimes we just treat it as like a byline.
Dr. Heather Holleman wrote a series of books about middle school girls
And so I would love to know, Heather, how this became this beautiful series of books. It's. They're so, like, they're just so encouraging and cheerful when. Even when I'm looking at it, how did. How did it become. I mean, you're teaching at Penn State. How did you write this? These books for middle schoolers?
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, my publisher said, look, we really need to write a Bible study or something for girls. You have to help young readers figure this out. And it was my daughter Kate at the. She said, mom, little boys and girls are not going to read a Bible study. You need to write a story for them. Because everyone you know, when you're little and your mom buys you a book, and you can really get into it. So my daughter Kate really inspired me to fictionalize this story. Really, a lot of it comes from my own experience of what's that going to feel like when you walk into the lunchroom, there's a popular table, you don't have a seat. And so I wrote a story of a girl really trying to find her place in middle school. And what she learns is how to deal with those jealous feelings. She finds a mentor, her, who teaches her just some beautiful things about Jesus. We even learned that at the end of ephesians, Ephesians 2, it says that God. That you're God's masterpiece, created in. In Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for you to do. So my character, Elita starts to realize, wait, God made me really special. I'm different from everyone else. I'm not gonna sit at the table with all the girls doing fashion design or with the athletes. She ends up realizing God made her to love nature. And she has a, science project. She falls in love with nature. She discovers what friendship is. She does start, to have a crush for the first time. And I don't go deeply into anything that would be inappropriate. But those feelings are real. When you're 12 and 13 and maybe you feel awkward around a boy, I wanted to include some of that. And how would. She would go to the God and her mentor and kind of work out some of those feelings that middle school girls have about friends and about, you know, oh, what do I think if this boy is cute? So all of those issues are in there. There's even a bully. How do you deal with the bully? So these are great books just to help interrogate all those things that go on in middle school, and then you can talk about them as a family.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I think a story is such a relatable way to do that. You know, when I was growing up, when I was in middle school, Robin Jones Gunn, who's a author, Christian author, she wrote a book, a series of books about a girl named Kristie Anyabwile Miller, and they're still widely available. They're considered, you know, such a classic. You're nodding yes and. And reading. And I still recommend them highly, highly, highly recommend them. And reading about Christie's stories and her insecurity and how, you know, she didn't know what to wear to the beach or what to say and she was embarrassed about what she said. All those things. You know, I was like, this is so relatable. And then when my girls got to middle school, Heather, I started reading those out loud to them because it gave me such insight into their reaction. I could see, you know, they'd be like, oh, whoa, that's really bad. Or, oh, wow, I don't know what I would do about that. Or, oh, I kind of am interested in that. And I could see their reactions in real time. And we had such a beautiful conversation about those things, about issues of growing up. What would you do with a bully? Would you feel like that? And, you know, sometimes they say, like, I would never have done that. I would have stood up for myself, or I would have done this, or, oh, this did not go well. So even with these books with Elita Brown, I encourage you. It may be awkward if you're listening and you're thinking, I don't read out loud to my kids, Just say, hey, I just want to try it. Can we just do one book and read it out loud at bedtime? I'm telling you, most middle school girls will love to have your time once they get past it being, Okay. Everybody cringe when I say this. Sus.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Right?
Dr. Jessica Peck: It's suspicious. Like, what do you want, Mom? You're so sus. But reading it out loud would be a great way to bond and to open the door to some of these conversations. And Heather's giving given you the tools with a biblical message right in the middle of it. We'll have more from Dr. Heather Holleman right when we come back after this break. Don't go away. I'll see you in a minute.
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Jesus Loves by Zach Williams: All the renegades, the rebels and the runaways all the prodigals have gotten a little lost along the way and all the backsliders upon out us down in a rough these are the ones the ones that Jesus loves Every dream shattered grace bruised and battered barely hanging on Every heartbroken lonely soul Sitting all alone and every outcast Stuck in their past Scared of letting go these are the ones the ones that Jesus chose. Come on in the door is open in the savior song on the table St Is waiting Big saint, it's just for you so no more running, no more hiding Come on in and you will find but you don't have to be enough to be somewhere Jesus loves
Dr. Heather Holleman has written a series of books for middle schoolers
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Jesus Loves by Zach Williams Maybe nobody needs to hear that. More on earth than middle schoolers, I am telling you, when I look back at my own middle school time, it was one of the hardest seasons of my life. Which sounds so melodramatic, but at the moment, everything seems so big, Everything seems so overwhelming. Everything seems like you're just never gonna make it through that time in your life. And you're wondering who and who loves me. Today I'm talking to Dr. Heather Holleman She teaches at, Penn State University. I feel like for any of you who went to Penn State out there, I have to say we are. Okay, all right, you can say it back.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Penn State
Dr. Jessica Peck: There you go. Exactly. Heather. My husband is an alum, so I have to get that in there for him. but she has written this beautiful Series of books for middle schoolers. And there's four books. And you know me, I'm not ashamed to talk to you about the holiday shopping push. Put this on your list. The first one's called this seat's yours. We've got the elite seat. We've got the disappearing seat, and this last one is called this Seats Saved. And it's really all to communicate a message that our middle schoolers are already seated with Christ. So it doesn't matter if they don't have a seat in the lunchroom. And I encourage you, especially Moms and Daughters Read and Fathers to Sons to do it. But with this series of books, read it out loud to your girls. Really just go and say, I want to try something new. Let's just read this book together. If you don't want to read it out loud together, start a book club and read it together and then talk about it. This is a great way and a safe way to talk about it. Because if you want to talk about the character in a book, it's easy to say, like, okay, you know, when we all say, well, I have a friend who, you know, blah, blah, blah, when really it's just us, that's kind of how you can use this. It makes it a little less awkward. So, Heather, let's talk a little bit more about that core identity, because how do you weave that into the book, you know, without. We just don't want to give them pat spiritual answers like, it doesn't matter. You're seated with Christ. But how do we root that as a core truth?
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, she has the benefit of having a wonderful mentor who's an older woman who lives down the lane of her house. So if you're listening and you're an older woman, find younger women to invest in their life. So this older woman, she's a grandmother, she actually hires my character to help work in the with her. And she begins to open up to her and talks about some of the problems of middle school. And this grandmother says, it was the exact same when I was your age, but I learned a secret that I wish someone had told me when I was your age. And the secret is, you are already seated at the greatest table with Jesus and this little girl. Even though it's a very deep theological concept, my character really begins to understand it, and she really begins to think about, okay, what could this mean for me to picture myself with Jesus? And the Beauty of Ephesians 2 is you begin to connect with Jesus and think to yourself, wait, if I'm Seated at his table, and it's this, like, royal table. What's available to me. So in the book, we just talk about how you can begin to trust God, talk to God. She develops the spiritual discipline of journaling. She begins to talk to God about things that she's struggling with. And so that really helps to solidify. Okay, God is here with me. I can learn about him and listen to him through reading my Bible. And you're never too young to do that. When I was 12, the God's word really came alive to me, especially through the Psalms. And so there are scenes of her reading her Bible in her bedroom, alone at night, and really connecting with Jesus. I don't know. Did you. Do you remember that, Jessica, reading the Bible for the first time when you're younger and really feeling like God is with you and you're learning from him? I don't think 12 is too young.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, I don't think so either. I think we constantly underestimate what kids are able to understand. And I think even now, we see this parenting trend where we tend to delay them growing up, and we tend to keep them babies for longer, keep them younger for longer, because sometimes they're just so much part of our identity is being that caretaker. But I absolutely remember that, Heather, you know, getting my first Bible. And I remember I, you know, I really wanted to. I had seen some women at church who were my mentors, who I wanted to emulate. So I gifted myself a Bible at the age of 16. It's still the Bible that I use every day and just wanted to highlight and wanted to read and think, thought and change the name to. From you in there to Jessica. Like, this is for me. And those truths, I am convinced, really, literally and figuratively saved my life during those middle school years.
Heather writes about how technology affects middle school friendships in new series
And that's why I'm so appreciative of you being willing to lean into this space, Heather, because another thing that's really hard, that can really impact middle schoolers is friendships. And it's even more complicated now because we have, you know, the complexity of this. This digital overlay, you know, where, like, my kids think, it's absolutely barbaric just to show up at somebody's house without calling. You know, you just drop by and knock on the door. Like, that is just the height of human rudeness. You know, why don't you text like a normal person? But the kids are trying to navigate all these things. And I remember when my oldest daughter got to middle school, my husband told me one day he's like, you know, I feel like you're kind. Y' all are having these conversations, and I'm kind of on the outside, and I want to know what's going on. So I was trying to explain to him this friendship dilemma that was happening. Heather. It wasn't like. I mean, it was like two minutes in, and he's like, I'm, already lost.
Dr. Heather Holleman: I feel very lost. I don't.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Wait, who said what about who to win? And. And what. Why does this matter? What are you doing? And sometimes I think it can be hard to be sensitive in that moment, but talk about how you tackle friendship in these books and. And what biblical truths are embedded in those stories.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, you're gonna love. Readers are gonna love this book about what it brings up about friendship. Like, how. What does it mean to be a. How do you have conversation? There's even a thing called Conversation Cafe where The English teacher, Mrs. Crisp, teach them. Teaches the kids how to have good conversations with each other because they're on their phones all the time. And actually, the phone becomes a problem in this series. You're gonna see what happens when she gets involved in these group chats where there's drama and she just. The impact of social media to the point where she decides she doesn't wanna have a phone at all. So a lot of readers, you know, they'll email me and they'll say, I read. I feel the exact same way. The phone causes so much stress in my life. So it's, a really good, you know, what does it do to friendships when you're just, like, in these big group tech situations, or you're just sharing videos all the time? So there's a lot about forgiving friends that have hurt you. How do you forgive someone who's really hurt you? How do you deal with jealous feelings if you have a friend that maybe is in a different position, than you are, where maybe she's going on great vacations or has a wonderful wardrobe and your family can't afford it? All those issues that are really about socioeconomic problems, how do you deal with that? Those are all in this series. And you can talk to your young reader like, hey, what do you think about this? What does it mean to feel really secure in your relationship with God and that you have all the riches of God's kingdom available to you?
All seats provide equal viewing of the universe, Hayden Planetarium guide says
My favorite quote in the entire series is from the Hayden Planetarium, and it's the what the museum guide says to the children when they all race into the planetarium and they try to get the best seat in the front row. And they're fighting their friends to get the best seat. Seat. The guide has to say, children, all seats provide equal viewing of the universe. No matter where you sit, you won't miss any part of the show. And I told my girls that. I said, look, we live in a little house by the woods. We're not going to miss anything that God has planned for us. Just because your friend lives in a mansion and is going to Paris, those are the blessings God has for her in our seat. We're not going to miss anything God has for us. And it helps fill you with joy and it helps feel. Fill you with an ability to love your friends and the blessing God has given them. And I'm able to model that for my girls because in the 50s, of course, I have a lot of very, very wealthy friends that are able to do a lot of things. And, you know, as professors, especially in the English department, I'm like a public servant. Nobody's going to Paris. Nobody's buying a second home.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Same in nursing. Not happening. Yeah.
Dr. Heather Holleman: But in my seat with Jesus, I'm not going to miss anything. So my day today, I may be collecting pine cones to decorate my house for fall, or I might be going down to meet with a professor for tea. That's my seat. And those are the good things that God has prepared for me, the blessings just for me. So it's really set me free from jealousy and comparison. And I've been able to witness my daughters experiencing that, too. My oldest daughter, Sarah, just said to me, she's in grad school, getting a PhD in university, of Colorado. And she said to me, mom, if you don't know you're seated with Christmas Christ, you're going to have imposter syndrome every day of your life. You're not going to, you know, as an academic, you're like, I'm just comparing myself to everyone. But when you know you're seated, you're going to get through it. So. And friendship relates to that, because when you are jealous of your friends, that's the quickest way to destroy a friendship is jealousy.
Dr. Jessica Peck: The. The, man, congratulations to you for having a. Raising a daughter who is so wise. Sometimes, you know, my daughters will tell me things, and I think, wow, where did that come from? Because I don't think it came from me. Like, the Lord sent you to humble me, and he has been very successful in that. But these are. This is so true. And I find, you know, my daughters in that same life stage as yours And I find as my daughters get older, you know, we just have these conversations and realize, like, these things that are in middle school, we have the foundation for our identity. It makes it easier to deal with those things. And you realize the core spiritual issue is the same. It's a sense of belonging. And who am I? And who did God create me to be? And am I content? And who God create me to. Created me to be in my flourishing and the gifts that. That he has given me, and am I pursuing the mission and the path that he has laid out for me? Those things are the same whether you're 15, whether you're 50, whether you're 115. Those things are all the same. And I think one of the pitfalls that we have as moms today. Heather, tell me if you feel this way, too. I feel like we're so fearful. We're just lead from everything with fear. We hear about a threat that comes, and then we tell our kids what not to do. Like, okay, don't be friends with this person. You know, don't go to this place. Don't, like, do this activity. Don't engage in this, that, like, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. We just have this big fearful list. And I think we're missing an opportunity to model calling our daughters, calling our sons as well, to faithfulness. And I love that you give them tools on how to. To be a good friend, how to develop a good friendship, how to recognize good signs of friendship rather than telling them just to stay away from bad ones. What do you think?
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, no, I agree.
Dr. Heather Holleman says every rejection is God's protection
One of the things that a lot of readers respond to is this quote that's become our family motto and that it's every rejection is God's protection. It's not like you're gonna have an easy. You know how parents are always trying to protect their kids from this or that rejection. I mean, just look at, you know, sorority rush right now on TikTok. The number of all the money parents are spending just to make sure their daughter gets in the right sorority. The stress of at all, if you remember this, God is in control of your life. He is so good and so loving. And I tell my daughters, if you're rejected, if something bad happens to you, by the time that thing has happened to you, God is already working it for your good. That is Romans 8. This is a deeply theological position to have in your life. That is God really able to work things for my good. So when you tell people, look hard Things are going to happen. Friendships may go wrong, bad things can happen. There could be a bully. My charact has to realize, okay, why did God allow this to happen to me? Was he protecting me from something? How am I experiencing his goodness in this? Again, these are deeply theological concepts that I'm amazed at. young readers, even 8 year olds will send me emails and say, the same thing happened to me and you'll never believe what God did. Or, you know, it's amazing. I was just speaking to a group of girls reading it for book club and you would think they would ask questions about the crush or about the pets or animals. No, their question was, what's your best advice for how I can develop my relationship with Jesus? What's the number one thing I can do? That's what these girls wanted to talk about. So I talked about reading the Psalms every day, developing a quiet time routine, and having a prayer journal because that's the number one way my faith grew is asking God for what I need. I quoted to Those girls Psalm 53 where David says, in the morning, O Lord, you hear my voice in the morning, I lay my requests before you and I wait in expectation. Those girls got so excited. They were like, it says that, I can ask God and see what he's gonna do. I was like, look, he always hears, he always answers, it might be no, it might be not yet, it might be yes, but he is always gonna answer your prayers. The Bible tells us he hears and he answers. Those little girls got so excited. And you see that in the book is her reaching out to God, praying for what she needs. All through the series, you're gonna see the way God becomes really real to her.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, Heather, you know when I love that you are meeting with girls and, and having book clubs and hearing back from them because I, I'm telling you, I will get on my soapbox. So, so, so quick. When people start talking about and complaining about the, the ills of this young generation and all of the negative attributes that can be labeled towards them. And I think there are young people in Gen Z and Gen Alpha Alpha who are hungry to know more about God. They want a living, breathing, working relationship with Jesus and they want to have meaningful conversations about it. They want adults to engage them. They want to have those conversations about the deep issues of life. And as I said before, Heather, I think sometimes we just underestimate what they're capable of. And so I encourage parents listening to lean into that discipleship journey to really invite those kinds of questions and work out your own faith with them. And if that's not something that you've done before, just start. I'm telling you, I've had so many parents who have done that who say their kids take onto it so fast and they'll. They'll bring them, a devotional. If they start a devotional one night, they'll bring it. Hey, don't forget we said we're gonna do this. They want our time and they want to work out these issues with us together. When we come back, we'll have some more and continue to talk to about how do we disciple our kids. One of the encouraging ways that you can do this is through this series of books by Heather Holleman This last one is called this Seat Saved. There are four. And you know what? We got a seat saved for you right after this break. Don't lose it. We'll see you right on the other side of the song.
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If The Lord Builds The House by Hope Darst and Jon Reddick: I built up my own day but the walls couldn't stay I trusted my own strength but it was seeking so I put my r into your head hands and watch you restore them like only you can Cuz if the Lord builds the house nobody can tear it down if m the Lord builds the house nobody can tear it down when it fill on his name there's nothing they going to shake this crown if the Lord builds the house nobody can tear it down welcome back, friends.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is if the Lord builds this house by Hope Darst and Jon Reddick And what an encouraging truth. I want to encourage all of you out there who are working on building the houses, the foundations of your families. And you're doing that hard work. But I promise you, miss you. It is the mundane that God uses as miraculous in your parenting journey. It's not those high moments, those one great conversations, those one great connection points. It's all of the carpooling that you're doing. It's the peanut butter and jelly sandwiches that you're making. It's the laundry that you're washing, it's the times that you tuck kids in at night. Those things matter. They matter so much more than you know. On depending. Don't let anybody tell you different. Don't let anybody discourage you. Because sometimes our kids are not the best at, giving us affirmation. It'd be great to have somebody stand in the corner of your house saying, hey, you just did a great job discipling right there. You just balanced love and truth so well. I would love that if I had that. But I've got somebody who will do that for you today.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Start learning about Jesus with your children
My guest today is Heather Holleman She's a speaker, she's an author, she's a professor. She's brilliant. She's written a lot of different books. The books that we're talking about today are a fictional series, the Elita Brown series for middle schoolers. And I encourage you, if you have any middle school, middle schooler in your life, give them a copy of this book, get it for the holidays. It's such a powerful message that no matter if you can't find a seat in the world around you, you are already seated in Christ. And Heather, you have just been such a force of encouragement already today. I, I just, just, I feel my spirit just lighter after talking to you. And right before the break, I was just saying, how about how kids are so eager to learn? They want to know about Jesus. They want to know from a trustworthy source, not just from chat or, you know, some influencer online. And they love being treated like adults. And you and I were having a great behind the scenes conversation and we said, let's bring this to air. So I would love for you to share your thoughts on, on that.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, I just know that there might be listeners that are thinking, gosh, my relationship with Jesus isn't that strong. I don't really know what I'm doing. Well, one thing I've learned is how much children value authenticity. So when I say to my girls, I am really struggling here, I want to start reading my Bible. I don't know what to do. I think I'm going to read the psalms or study the book of John. Do you guys want to do it with me? I remember one summer I did summer devotions where at the table, I said, okay, we're going to read the psalms and figure out, you know, what we learn about God because I really need encouragement this summer. The other thing is starting a family prayer journal. Even this morning I Talked to my 21 year old daughter and said, okay, what do you have for the prayer journal or the PJ, we call it that just means do you have two or three requests that I can pray for you and my girls now say, what about you, mom? What are you trusting God for today? Because nobody has arrived on their journey with Jesus. And so even if you're like, I don't really know what I'm doing, I don't know how to teach my children. My favorite teaching quote from Parker Palmer is, we teach what we most need to learn, learn. So telling your girls or your boys, you know, your children, look, I really want to grow in understanding who Jesus is and my seat, ah, at the table. Let's do it together. It'll create a sense of warm connection with your children and they'll really value the authenticity. Kids love that they do not like hypocrites. They don't like fake parents. They want real parents that are like, here's where I'm struggling, here's what we're going to do as a family. So that's what I recommend if you're struggling where if you don't feel strong in your faith, start learning and bring your children into what you're learning about him.
For dads of middle school age daughters, sometimes that can be tough time
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you talked about the organization that you and your husband started and you're talking about doing things together as a family. And I think particularly Heather, for dads of middle school age daughters, sometimes that can just be a really tough time for them because the ways they may have had of connecting before just don't seem to matter now. And I would encourage dads. Your words matter so much. I mean, I can tell my middle school daughter, I could tell her, you know, that she was beautiful and she'd be like, you have to say that because you're my mom. But if her dad told her she was beautiful, it was like, oh, so I'm a princess, am I? I mean, it had, carries like a different weight. How is your husband? Tell me about the ministry you have together and what advice do you have specifically for dads who may gain insight from your books that you've written into a middle school girl's world?
Dr. Heather Holleman: I, mean, you didn't even Know how you were setting this up, but one of the passions of our heart is I wrote a. A book called Six Conversations. Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. And Ash and I, we give workshops all the time on how to have better conversations. Now he's a shy, introverted. I mean, he was an organic chemist. So, goodness. When I. When my girls turned 13, it was really important that he knew how to engage them in meaningful conversations. So even asking questions like, okay, on a scale of 1 to 10, what kind of day did you have? And then what would have had to happen to make it a 10? You know, just little tricks that we would do to, like, engage people. The other thing Ash did was he learned to get really involved in whatever they cared about. I'll never forget the year Ash, sat down and watched the entire Gilmore Girls series. Because one of my daughters loved Gilmore Girls. He also learned to cross stitch. One year, he actually sat on the couch with one of my daughters and learned how to cross stitch because, she really wanted to do things like, you know, knitting and cross stitch. And so Ash really had to decide, okay, how am I going to get and involved in the lives of these two girls? He didn't have those natural abilities. One of the things, though, is don't be afraid to ask meaningful questions. We talk about the four mindsets. You know, be curious about your children, believe the best about them, express concern about whatever is going on. You can even say, okay, what's your major stressor tomorrow? I want to. I want to pray for whatever's going on, and don't forget to share your life. So we often talk to parents a lot about. It's okay. Here are some good questions you can start out with. Teenagers love to talk about their friends, so don't ask, like, how are you? Or, how was school? Say, hey, who'd you hang out with at school? Who surprised you the most? You know, they like to talk about things like the little girls next door. Whenever I don't know what to ask, I'll say, okay, were you a packer or buyer today? Tell me about your lunch. Because people love to talk about, like, what they ate or, you know, their animal friends, whatever it is. So if you buy, the seats saved, you may want to think about the six conversations or just figuring out, okay, I need a set of good questions to engage with my daughter. And these can be, like you said, in the minivan, around the table on the way to church, easy times when, as a dad, you can just ask your daughter Good questions. If you don't know how to enter into her world, you can say, okay, what is the music everyone's listening to? Or, like, what is everyone watching on TV right now? Just make your week weakness your greatest strength. In other words, whatever the problem is, that's the solution. So you say to your daughter, I have a problem. I have no idea how to connect with you. Tell me, like, what is the funniest thing you heard today in school? I don't even know the words people are using. I did that with my own college students, and they were like, Dr. H, here's what everyone's saying. And they gave me all the words. I was like, what do you mean? I'm LARPing. Someone's LARPing. If they're being fake, they still say chopped and unk. I, Do they say that in Texas?
Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Compliment them too much, they'll say, stop glazing me, Dr. H. So it's just make the problem the solution. I have a problem. I don't know how to connect with you guys. Help me. So you're gonna. You're gonna do great. If you're a dad listening, just ask a couple questions like, hey, tell me about your friends, or, tell me about whatever it is, and just make. Take that risk of forming a warm connection with Conversational connection.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Heather, that advice is gold. I mean, I am telling you, absolutely gold. Because if a dad goes to his daughter and says, hey, help me out. I don't understand this part of your world at all. Can you teach me about, like, show me your skin care routine. Everybody's talking about that. What is it? Oh, they will laugh the whole time that you might even get some moisturizer put on your face. Believe me, it'll be fine. But they love to be in the position of teaching teacher, and then it makes it more natural to be reciprocal. So I've taught you something. Now let. Now I'm gonna teach, you know, now you can teach me something. That's right. And they're more receptive to that. Instead of just you always being the teacher, always being the lecturer, always being the heavy, it's like we're learning from each other. It's this beautiful dynamic that I love. And before I let you go, Heather, because I listen, I could talk to you, like, all day long. this is so encouraging.
Heather: I encourage parents to cultivate intentionally godly mentors for their children
I do want to hear more about the ministry that you and your husband started and your heart for evangelist.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, we loved when I started speaking so much on Seated with Christ. So many, pastors were saying, gosh, I wish the men of the church could hear this. But we had also written a book called Sent Living a life that invites others to Jesus. Because once I knew I was seated just like my character Elita Brown, then you're sent. Part of the good works God has prepared for you. If you think of Acts 20:21 or, John 20:21, Jesus says, as the Father, Father has sent me, so I send you. So sending people out to be an agent of blessing and proclamation it change. It gives a young person such a great purpose to be like, wait, God, are you sending me to bless someone? To introduce them to Jesus, to invite them to the table? So two years ago, we started a ministry called Seated and Sent. And primarily now it's a coaching ministry. So Ash gathers cohorts of pastors. We often come and speak at churches who are reading Scent and. And we also do the six Conversations workshop, which is really evangelism training, how to have warm connections. So the gospel never really feels like a sales pitch or an awkward pivot in the conversation. So we've been doing that. We also are launching a podcast. We're doing a lot more with social media. So our website is called seatedandsent.com so you can follow us there. But. And we're working on some more books coming out in 2028. So we've got a lot going on. It's a lot of fun.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You do have a lot going on, and I'm so encouraged by it. And I feel like, you know, just, listening to you talk, you. You felt like a mentor to me today. Honestly, Heather, in a lot of ways. And I think that's something that we need to encourage and welcome into our lives sometimes. I think today, you know, we tend to be so closed, and we're so afraid of people seeing our dirty laundry or figuring out that our. Oh, news flash. Our family's not perfect. Sometimes it can be hard to ask those mentors into our life. That's one of the things I loved about your Elita Brown Seat Right series. Is that that mentor role that you talked about? how. What would you do to encourage parents to cultivate intentionally godly mentors for their children and welcome them into their life to reinforce the messages that we're giving them at home.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, I love. If ever there's a woman that I wish could speak into my own daughter's life, I love just going out to lunch as a family and then seeing those natural connection forms. We were the. One of the pastor's wives was out to lunch with us a couple Sundays ago. And I was amazed because Kate right away was like, wait, how did you know that you were going to marry your husband? And how did you know? Did you feel called to be a pastor's wife? I need to know the whole story. And before I knew it, they started texting, and I was like, okay, please take my daughter out to lunch. Teach her everything. And I love it when other moms say, yeah, here's how it. Cause I'm not a pastor's wife. Maybe God's calling Kate to become a pastor. Pastor's wife. And so you can identify those women. Encourage connections as a family, but you can also tell your children, always look for older women. My mentor, Sandy. I've got several women in my life that are older, in their 70s. Because I'm in my 50s. I initiate with them. I'm like, hey, I want to know, what should I be looking out for in the 50s or what? You know, the questions you're asking is really like, I need wisdom for this, this, and this. How do I protect my marriage? How do I parent adult children? Children, what's your best advice for health as I age? What's your best advice for retirement? There are so many questions at any age of life. You need older, wiser women to help you navigate them. I don't know. Do you collect mentors? I collect them. like, chocolate. I love them.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I absolutely do. It's so true. And I will say, like, I will take you to lunch now. Tell me everything that you know. Tell me the good, the bad, the ugly. I remember this one specific time, Heather, where I was. I was at La Madeleine's with this, with this mentor. We went there because, you know, they don't, like, tell you to leave the table. We could sit there for three hours and have a conversation. But the whole conversation that she told me, and it was when my kids were very young, she told me, don't love who your kids used to be more than they. Who they are becoming. Don't make them feel guilty for growing up. Don't say, oh, I loved this version of you when you were nice to me, when you wanted me in your life. Like, this was the best of your life. Like, even during those seasons of struggle, she said, celebrate each season, look forward to each season. Find something to love in each season. And that really stuck with me. And I think that really pivoted and shifted even how I looked at motherhood and that. It was just like one of those little gems that was just with me. So I am all about it. Heather, it's been so great to talk to you. I really. The series is called Elita Brown, but you heard Heather's got other books out there, too. You can find them Amazon and any other book retailer. And, this one that you're. You can look for is this seat saved.
The greatest gift you can give your kids is an identity built in Christ
And you'll find all of the other books. And really, this is one of the greatest gifts that when we're already looking forward. My holiday shopping is in full swing, let me tell you, because I, I am just waiting to get out the decorations. I know. I. Y' all think I'm crazy, but that's okay.
Dr. Heather Holleman: I'll stick with it the same way.
Dr. Jessica Peck: But the greatest gift you can give your kids is an identity that is built in Christ. A foundation that will never, ever shake, even in these waves of culture that are crashing against us. It is a foundation that is sure and that is steady. And the world is going to offer your kids plenty of tables, more than ever before. And some are built around popularity, some achievement, appearance, influence. And some require them to compromise. But the gospel gives us our kids a seat they already have. They're already seated in Christ. And Dr. Heather Holloman's this seat's yours concludes the series by reminding young readers that.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Hey.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Life struggles are part of becoming someone who depends on and reflects God. You're seated with Christ, and you're meant and sent to bless others. What in the world could be more encouraging than that? This seat is yours. I. I encourage you to have conversations with your kids like this at home and wherever you are, whatever you are doing, I pray, as I always do, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you and give you peace. I'll see you right back here tomorrow.
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Dr. Heather Holleman talks about middle school on American Family Radio
preborn.com/AFR hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing hope for
Dr. Jessica Peck: healthy families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you, prescribing hope for healthy families. And you know what? We got hope for today we have hope for something that can seem hopeless to a lot of people. I'm talking about middle school, middle school years. Do you remember your middle school years? I have yet to meet anyone who says, you know what? That was the time of m my life. If I could go back to any point in my life and relive any years, I would really Want to do middle school over again. If that's you out there, I'm so happy for you. But for most kids, it's such a tough time, and it's an even tougher time to grow up today, I think, than in generations past. Teenagers are competing with so many mixed messages and information overload and just the digital explosion that's happening in their life. And they're still asking in the midst of all of that cultural noise, who am I and what do I believe about myself to be true? What was I created for? What is my purpose? And these questions are so important because our kids are growing up in a culture today that's constantly trying to market things to them, constantly trying to generate discontent with some problem that maybe they didn't even know they had. So now they can be marketed a solution. And culture tells them to measure their worth by where they rank in the social ladder there, who likes them, how they look, what they accomplish. When we see the increase, increased professionalization of youth sports and other competitive things, how many friends they have. Because everybody knows now on your social media, you can see your friend count right there in front of for the world to see and how they present themselves online. This is image crafting. And middle school has always been a vulnerable season, and it still is, because kids are figuring out who they are and where they fit in and are they enough. And friendships, especially feel very high stakes. And I know there's a lot of parents out there, but especially mom out there, who are navigating all of the complexities of, middle school. Friendship and rejection just feels like the end of the world. And comparison just feels like an expectation now. And we are talking today to Dr. Heather Holleman. She has written a series of books for middle schoolers called Elita Brown Fiction. Now, we're in September now, and you guys know I have no shame in talking about Christmas. I love Christmas. You might be thinking about holiday shopping. If you have a middle schooler in your life, put this on your list. If you're a teacher or a librarian for middle school, if you're a church, group leader, put this on your holiday list. It's an a fiction series called Elita Brown, and it speaks directly into the question of do I have a place? And the series is written for middle grade readers to help them discover they are already seated at the best table with Jesus. And isn't that a message that every middle schooler needs to hear? Now, the first book this seat saved, which I have right here, I have it right here, was named Christianity Today's Book of the Year in the young adult category. And she has the fourth and final book. There's four of these. This last one is called this Seat's Yours. And it follows Elita through a summer filled with friendship, struggles and disappointment and trouble and adventure and a deeper understanding of forgiveness and love and dependence on God. And that's what makes our conversation so important today, because we don't want to just tell them, hey, don't worry about what other people think. I love you. I think you're the greatest. We want to give them a better place from which to understand this in a biblical worldview. We want them to know at a deep level, I was made by God. I belong to Jesus. I am loved by Him. I have a place at his table. And because I'm seated with Christ, I can be sent into the world to bless other people. So Dr. Holleman has joined us today. She is an academic. She is an author. She is just absolutely delightful, and I'm so excited for you to meet her. Heather, thank you so much for meeting with us today and, giving us some of your time. I'm so appreciative.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, I'm so excited to be on your program. This is going to be a great conversation, and I'm really grateful that you had me on.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, any person who says, like, yeah, I've got middle schoolers on my heart, I'm like, oh, you are my people. Like, you are just my people. Because that's a hard age to lean into. It can be intimidating. It can be overwhelming. It is just. It is a difficult age to navigate, and kids need some wisdom and encouragement coming their way.
Dr. Heather Holleman shares her personal testimony about ministry to middle schoolers
So before we jump in and talk about these books, Heather, let's talk about. About you and, and your personal testimony, how, you came to know the Lord and how he gave you a heart for middle schoolers and. And the platform that you have really to minister to them.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, I did pray to receive Christ when I was 12 years old because there was so much just difficulty happening in my life. That's when I became really passionate about reading the Bible and experiencing Jesus for myself. But I really didn't have great discipleship. I was involved in a youth group, but I really didn't know how to grow in my relationship with the Lord. So I really floundered through college at University of Vir. again, I was trying to walk with God, but I didn't have good discipleship. I didn't really have an understanding of the Holy Spirit or how to deal with sin in my life. And it really wasn't until graduate school when I got involved at the University of Michigan with a ministry called crew, which is Campus Crusade for Christ. That's where I really grew strong in my relationship with the Lord. And I realized that I just had major identity issues in Christ. I struggled with jealousy in comparison. I was someone who really didn't know I had a place at the table. So a lot of my ministry has to do with this idea that you said it best. You're already seated at the best table with Jesus. So I've had a long journey of just understanding my place at the table. I am an academic. I teach at Penn State, but I serve with my husband in the ministry we founded called Seated and Sent. So once you know you're seated with Jesus, he then sends you out on a supernatural adventure to lead others to Jesus.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is so encouraging. I mean, I feel encouraged already. People ask me, how do you find hope in the world? And it is through people like you. He not joking. Because just to see that, you know, God is at work all over and just calling so many people to spread encouragement, to give good news, to use their giftedness. I, I'm just all about it. I'm all for it. And when we think about middle school, I mean, all of us, anybody who went to school can remember the lunchroom drama, you know, walking in with the tray, especially on the first day. You're a new kid, you just had, you know, some shake up in your friend group and just looking around like, who am I gonna sit with? But you are giving this powerful phrase that kids are already seated with Christ. I'm picturing a kid in the lunchroom, you know, thinking, okay, I may not can find a seat in the lunchroom, but I'm seated with Christ. Give us, give us, an explanation of this really encouraging message. Tell us what, what, how should we communicate that to kids?
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, it originally started communicating it to women. And I was speaking at women's events on the power of Ephesians 2. 6, which just says, God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms of Christ Jesus. And I would tell women, look, you are already seated with Jesus. But I would go back, Jessica, to the moment in middle school. I said, look, this has probably been a wound from the time you were a little girl. How many of you all remember the middle school lunchroom? And women would just burst into tears. And I would give a, talk on what it means to know you're seated with Christ and heal that part of you that's always fighting for a seat at the table. And what happened, the miraculous thing that happened is my own daughter. As God was teaching me about Ephesians, my own daughter was experiencing lunchroom rejection in sixth grade. And I pulled her up on my lap and I read Ephesians 2 to her. And I said, look, I know that you don't feel like you have a seat at the table, but I want you to picture yourself seated with Jesus. He chose you for his table. So when you walk into that lunchroom, you don't have to think about the popular girls. You can say to yourself, jesus chose me. I am seated at the greatest table with the greatest king. And Even as an 11 year old girl, Sarah understood the power of that Image in Ephesians 2. It's my favorite chapter in the entire Bible. I think everyone should memorize Ephesians 2:1 10. But even teaching young children that image, you can use as an educator. I love that you're also an educator, Jessica. Like, I'm always reading. Like, how do you teach people? I helped Sarah. Picture it. My daughter Sarah, we used King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. I just said, what. What's coming to your mind when you read Ephesians 2:6. Because Paul is writing from a Roman prison, but he pictured himself, it's a past tense verb. He pictured himself as seated with Jesus even though he was physically in a terrible location. So I told my girls, no matter what's going on, I want you to picture yourself seated with Jesus. It's such a powerful image of belonging and inclusion. And it kind of fortifies a little young reader to know, okay, there's going to be a room where there are tables, and I'm going to get jealous. I'm going to compare my life. I'm going to feel rejected. What do I do? But the funny thing is, if you're listening and you're in your 50s like I am, I still deal with this every time I walk into a room. I walked into a faculty meeting the other day and I thought, oh, my gosh, I don't belong here. Do you know, even academics, we can get that feeling. But then I remember, wait, I'm already seated at the best table with Jesus. It just makes all the difference.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, Heather, that is so very true. And I remember having that conversation where my own daughter had the realization, and, oh, like, you're really old, mom, and you're still having these problems. Because it is true. It doesn't matter. You can Walk into, you know, the. The community sports league, and it's like, oh, they. They've got the nice car and the. And the nice house and everything together. And I don't know, like, how do I fit into there? Or, you know, whatever it is, whatever that insecurity is, these issues do not go away. And I think so often, Heather, as parents, we so often put our energy into trying to fix the circumstances, fix the situation. Like, okay, how can I help you fit in?
Those messages just delivered over and over will take root in their heart
How can I help you make a friend? How can I help you feel better about yourself? How can I help you buy some new clothes or join this team or those kinds of things? And we often lose sight of what you're saying. Those messages just delivered over and over, over time, will take root in their heart. You are already seated with Christ. You have everything that you need. Those things are so important, and sometimes we just treat it as like a byline.
Dr. Heather Holleman wrote a series of books about middle school girls
And so I would love to know, Heather, how this became this beautiful series of books. It's. They're so, like, they're just so encouraging and cheerful when. Even when I'm looking at it, how did. How did it become. I mean, you're teaching at Penn State. How did you write this? These books for middle schoolers?
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, my publisher said, look, we really need to write a Bible study or something for girls. You have to help young readers figure this out. And it was my daughter Kate at the. She said, mom, little boys and girls are not going to read a Bible study. You need to write a story for them. Because everyone you know, when you're little and your mom buys you a book, and you can really get into it. So my daughter Kate really inspired me to fictionalize this story. Really, a lot of it comes from my own experience of what's that going to feel like when you walk into the lunchroom, there's a popular table, you don't have a seat. And so I wrote a story of a girl really trying to find her place in middle school. And what she learns is how to deal with those jealous feelings. She finds a mentor, her, who teaches her just some beautiful things about Jesus. We even learned that at the end of ephesians, Ephesians 2, it says that God. That you're God's masterpiece, created in. In Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for you to do. So my character, Elita starts to realize, wait, God made me really special. I'm different from everyone else. I'm not gonna sit at the table with all the girls doing fashion design or with the athletes. She ends up realizing God made her to love nature. And she has a, science project. She falls in love with nature. She discovers what friendship is. She does start, to have a crush for the first time. And I don't go deeply into anything that would be inappropriate. But those feelings are real. When you're 12 and 13 and maybe you feel awkward around a boy, I wanted to include some of that. And how would. She would go to the God and her mentor and kind of work out some of those feelings that middle school girls have about friends and about, you know, oh, what do I think if this boy is cute? So all of those issues are in there. There's even a bully. How do you deal with the bully? So these are great books just to help interrogate all those things that go on in middle school, and then you can talk about them as a family.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I think a story is such a relatable way to do that. You know, when I was growing up, when I was in middle school, Robin Jones Gunn, who's a author, Christian author, she wrote a book, a series of books about a girl named Kristie Anyabwile Miller, and they're still widely available. They're considered, you know, such a classic. You're nodding yes and. And reading. And I still recommend them highly, highly, highly recommend them. And reading about Christie's stories and her insecurity and how, you know, she didn't know what to wear to the beach or what to say and she was embarrassed about what she said. All those things. You know, I was like, this is so relatable. And then when my girls got to middle school, Heather, I started reading those out loud to them because it gave me such insight into their reaction. I could see, you know, they'd be like, oh, whoa, that's really bad. Or, oh, wow, I don't know what I would do about that. Or, oh, I kind of am interested in that. And I could see their reactions in real time. And we had such a beautiful conversation about those things, about issues of growing up. What would you do with a bully? Would you feel like that? And, you know, sometimes they say, like, I would never have done that. I would have stood up for myself, or I would have done this, or, oh, this did not go well. So even with these books with Elita Brown, I encourage you. It may be awkward if you're listening and you're thinking, I don't read out loud to my kids, Just say, hey, I just want to try it. Can we just do one book and read it out loud at bedtime? I'm telling you, most middle school girls will love to have your time once they get past it being, Okay. Everybody cringe when I say this. Sus.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Right?
Dr. Jessica Peck: It's suspicious. Like, what do you want, Mom? You're so sus. But reading it out loud would be a great way to bond and to open the door to some of these conversations. And Heather's giving given you the tools with a biblical message right in the middle of it. We'll have more from Dr. Heather Holleman right when we come back after this break. Don't go away. I'll see you in a minute.
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Jesus Loves by Zach Williams: All the renegades, the rebels and the runaways all the prodigals have gotten a little lost along the way and all the backsliders upon out us down in a rough these are the ones the ones that Jesus loves Every dream shattered grace bruised and battered barely hanging on Every heartbroken lonely soul Sitting all alone and every outcast Stuck in their past Scared of letting go these are the ones the ones that Jesus chose. Come on in the door is open in the savior song on the table St Is waiting Big saint, it's just for you so no more running, no more hiding Come on in and you will find but you don't have to be enough to be somewhere Jesus loves
Dr. Heather Holleman has written a series of books for middle schoolers
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Jesus Loves by Zach Williams Maybe nobody needs to hear that. More on earth than middle schoolers, I am telling you, when I look back at my own middle school time, it was one of the hardest seasons of my life. Which sounds so melodramatic, but at the moment, everything seems so big, Everything seems so overwhelming. Everything seems like you're just never gonna make it through that time in your life. And you're wondering who and who loves me. Today I'm talking to Dr. Heather Holleman She teaches at, Penn State University. I feel like for any of you who went to Penn State out there, I have to say we are. Okay, all right, you can say it back.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Penn State
Dr. Jessica Peck: There you go. Exactly. Heather. My husband is an alum, so I have to get that in there for him. but she has written this beautiful Series of books for middle schoolers. And there's four books. And you know me, I'm not ashamed to talk to you about the holiday shopping push. Put this on your list. The first one's called this seat's yours. We've got the elite seat. We've got the disappearing seat, and this last one is called this Seats Saved. And it's really all to communicate a message that our middle schoolers are already seated with Christ. So it doesn't matter if they don't have a seat in the lunchroom. And I encourage you, especially Moms and Daughters Read and Fathers to Sons to do it. But with this series of books, read it out loud to your girls. Really just go and say, I want to try something new. Let's just read this book together. If you don't want to read it out loud together, start a book club and read it together and then talk about it. This is a great way and a safe way to talk about it. Because if you want to talk about the character in a book, it's easy to say, like, okay, you know, when we all say, well, I have a friend who, you know, blah, blah, blah, when really it's just us, that's kind of how you can use this. It makes it a little less awkward. So, Heather, let's talk a little bit more about that core identity, because how do you weave that into the book, you know, without. We just don't want to give them pat spiritual answers like, it doesn't matter. You're seated with Christ. But how do we root that as a core truth?
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, she has the benefit of having a wonderful mentor who's an older woman who lives down the lane of her house. So if you're listening and you're an older woman, find younger women to invest in their life. So this older woman, she's a grandmother, she actually hires my character to help work in the with her. And she begins to open up to her and talks about some of the problems of middle school. And this grandmother says, it was the exact same when I was your age, but I learned a secret that I wish someone had told me when I was your age. And the secret is, you are already seated at the greatest table with Jesus and this little girl. Even though it's a very deep theological concept, my character really begins to understand it, and she really begins to think about, okay, what could this mean for me to picture myself with Jesus? And the Beauty of Ephesians 2 is you begin to connect with Jesus and think to yourself, wait, if I'm Seated at his table, and it's this, like, royal table. What's available to me. So in the book, we just talk about how you can begin to trust God, talk to God. She develops the spiritual discipline of journaling. She begins to talk to God about things that she's struggling with. And so that really helps to solidify. Okay, God is here with me. I can learn about him and listen to him through reading my Bible. And you're never too young to do that. When I was 12, the God's word really came alive to me, especially through the Psalms. And so there are scenes of her reading her Bible in her bedroom, alone at night, and really connecting with Jesus. I don't know. Did you. Do you remember that, Jessica, reading the Bible for the first time when you're younger and really feeling like God is with you and you're learning from him? I don't think 12 is too young.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, I don't think so either. I think we constantly underestimate what kids are able to understand. And I think even now, we see this parenting trend where we tend to delay them growing up, and we tend to keep them babies for longer, keep them younger for longer, because sometimes they're just so much part of our identity is being that caretaker. But I absolutely remember that, Heather, you know, getting my first Bible. And I remember I, you know, I really wanted to. I had seen some women at church who were my mentors, who I wanted to emulate. So I gifted myself a Bible at the age of 16. It's still the Bible that I use every day and just wanted to highlight and wanted to read and think, thought and change the name to. From you in there to Jessica. Like, this is for me. And those truths, I am convinced, really, literally and figuratively saved my life during those middle school years.
Heather writes about how technology affects middle school friendships in new series
And that's why I'm so appreciative of you being willing to lean into this space, Heather, because another thing that's really hard, that can really impact middle schoolers is friendships. And it's even more complicated now because we have, you know, the complexity of this. This digital overlay, you know, where, like, my kids think, it's absolutely barbaric just to show up at somebody's house without calling. You know, you just drop by and knock on the door. Like, that is just the height of human rudeness. You know, why don't you text like a normal person? But the kids are trying to navigate all these things. And I remember when my oldest daughter got to middle school, my husband told me one day he's like, you know, I feel like you're kind. Y' all are having these conversations, and I'm kind of on the outside, and I want to know what's going on. So I was trying to explain to him this friendship dilemma that was happening. Heather. It wasn't like. I mean, it was like two minutes in, and he's like, I'm, already lost.
Dr. Heather Holleman: I feel very lost. I don't.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Wait, who said what about who to win? And. And what. Why does this matter? What are you doing? And sometimes I think it can be hard to be sensitive in that moment, but talk about how you tackle friendship in these books and. And what biblical truths are embedded in those stories.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, you're gonna love. Readers are gonna love this book about what it brings up about friendship. Like, how. What does it mean to be a. How do you have conversation? There's even a thing called Conversation Cafe where The English teacher, Mrs. Crisp, teach them. Teaches the kids how to have good conversations with each other because they're on their phones all the time. And actually, the phone becomes a problem in this series. You're gonna see what happens when she gets involved in these group chats where there's drama and she just. The impact of social media to the point where she decides she doesn't wanna have a phone at all. So a lot of readers, you know, they'll email me and they'll say, I read. I feel the exact same way. The phone causes so much stress in my life. So it's, a really good, you know, what does it do to friendships when you're just, like, in these big group tech situations, or you're just sharing videos all the time? So there's a lot about forgiving friends that have hurt you. How do you forgive someone who's really hurt you? How do you deal with jealous feelings if you have a friend that maybe is in a different position, than you are, where maybe she's going on great vacations or has a wonderful wardrobe and your family can't afford it? All those issues that are really about socioeconomic problems, how do you deal with that? Those are all in this series. And you can talk to your young reader like, hey, what do you think about this? What does it mean to feel really secure in your relationship with God and that you have all the riches of God's kingdom available to you?
All seats provide equal viewing of the universe, Hayden Planetarium guide says
My favorite quote in the entire series is from the Hayden Planetarium, and it's the what the museum guide says to the children when they all race into the planetarium and they try to get the best seat in the front row. And they're fighting their friends to get the best seat. Seat. The guide has to say, children, all seats provide equal viewing of the universe. No matter where you sit, you won't miss any part of the show. And I told my girls that. I said, look, we live in a little house by the woods. We're not going to miss anything that God has planned for us. Just because your friend lives in a mansion and is going to Paris, those are the blessings God has for her in our seat. We're not going to miss anything God has for us. And it helps fill you with joy and it helps feel. Fill you with an ability to love your friends and the blessing God has given them. And I'm able to model that for my girls because in the 50s, of course, I have a lot of very, very wealthy friends that are able to do a lot of things. And, you know, as professors, especially in the English department, I'm like a public servant. Nobody's going to Paris. Nobody's buying a second home.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Same in nursing. Not happening. Yeah.
Dr. Heather Holleman: But in my seat with Jesus, I'm not going to miss anything. So my day today, I may be collecting pine cones to decorate my house for fall, or I might be going down to meet with a professor for tea. That's my seat. And those are the good things that God has prepared for me, the blessings just for me. So it's really set me free from jealousy and comparison. And I've been able to witness my daughters experiencing that, too. My oldest daughter, Sarah, just said to me, she's in grad school, getting a PhD in university, of Colorado. And she said to me, mom, if you don't know you're seated with Christmas Christ, you're going to have imposter syndrome every day of your life. You're not going to, you know, as an academic, you're like, I'm just comparing myself to everyone. But when you know you're seated, you're going to get through it. So. And friendship relates to that, because when you are jealous of your friends, that's the quickest way to destroy a friendship is jealousy.
Dr. Jessica Peck: The. The, man, congratulations to you for having a. Raising a daughter who is so wise. Sometimes, you know, my daughters will tell me things, and I think, wow, where did that come from? Because I don't think it came from me. Like, the Lord sent you to humble me, and he has been very successful in that. But these are. This is so true. And I find, you know, my daughters in that same life stage as yours And I find as my daughters get older, you know, we just have these conversations and realize, like, these things that are in middle school, we have the foundation for our identity. It makes it easier to deal with those things. And you realize the core spiritual issue is the same. It's a sense of belonging. And who am I? And who did God create me to be? And am I content? And who God create me to. Created me to be in my flourishing and the gifts that. That he has given me, and am I pursuing the mission and the path that he has laid out for me? Those things are the same whether you're 15, whether you're 50, whether you're 115. Those things are all the same. And I think one of the pitfalls that we have as moms today. Heather, tell me if you feel this way, too. I feel like we're so fearful. We're just lead from everything with fear. We hear about a threat that comes, and then we tell our kids what not to do. Like, okay, don't be friends with this person. You know, don't go to this place. Don't, like, do this activity. Don't engage in this, that, like, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. We just have this big fearful list. And I think we're missing an opportunity to model calling our daughters, calling our sons as well, to faithfulness. And I love that you give them tools on how to. To be a good friend, how to develop a good friendship, how to recognize good signs of friendship rather than telling them just to stay away from bad ones. What do you think?
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, no, I agree.
Dr. Heather Holleman says every rejection is God's protection
One of the things that a lot of readers respond to is this quote that's become our family motto and that it's every rejection is God's protection. It's not like you're gonna have an easy. You know how parents are always trying to protect their kids from this or that rejection. I mean, just look at, you know, sorority rush right now on TikTok. The number of all the money parents are spending just to make sure their daughter gets in the right sorority. The stress of at all, if you remember this, God is in control of your life. He is so good and so loving. And I tell my daughters, if you're rejected, if something bad happens to you, by the time that thing has happened to you, God is already working it for your good. That is Romans 8. This is a deeply theological position to have in your life. That is God really able to work things for my good. So when you tell people, look hard Things are going to happen. Friendships may go wrong, bad things can happen. There could be a bully. My charact has to realize, okay, why did God allow this to happen to me? Was he protecting me from something? How am I experiencing his goodness in this? Again, these are deeply theological concepts that I'm amazed at. young readers, even 8 year olds will send me emails and say, the same thing happened to me and you'll never believe what God did. Or, you know, it's amazing. I was just speaking to a group of girls reading it for book club and you would think they would ask questions about the crush or about the pets or animals. No, their question was, what's your best advice for how I can develop my relationship with Jesus? What's the number one thing I can do? That's what these girls wanted to talk about. So I talked about reading the Psalms every day, developing a quiet time routine, and having a prayer journal because that's the number one way my faith grew is asking God for what I need. I quoted to Those girls Psalm 53 where David says, in the morning, O Lord, you hear my voice in the morning, I lay my requests before you and I wait in expectation. Those girls got so excited. They were like, it says that, I can ask God and see what he's gonna do. I was like, look, he always hears, he always answers, it might be no, it might be not yet, it might be yes, but he is always gonna answer your prayers. The Bible tells us he hears and he answers. Those little girls got so excited. And you see that in the book is her reaching out to God, praying for what she needs. All through the series, you're gonna see the way God becomes really real to her.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, Heather, you know when I love that you are meeting with girls and, and having book clubs and hearing back from them because I, I'm telling you, I will get on my soapbox. So, so, so quick. When people start talking about and complaining about the, the ills of this young generation and all of the negative attributes that can be labeled towards them. And I think there are young people in Gen Z and Gen Alpha Alpha who are hungry to know more about God. They want a living, breathing, working relationship with Jesus and they want to have meaningful conversations about it. They want adults to engage them. They want to have those conversations about the deep issues of life. And as I said before, Heather, I think sometimes we just underestimate what they're capable of. And so I encourage parents listening to lean into that discipleship journey to really invite those kinds of questions and work out your own faith with them. And if that's not something that you've done before, just start. I'm telling you, I've had so many parents who have done that who say their kids take onto it so fast and they'll. They'll bring them, a devotional. If they start a devotional one night, they'll bring it. Hey, don't forget we said we're gonna do this. They want our time and they want to work out these issues with us together. When we come back, we'll have some more and continue to talk to about how do we disciple our kids. One of the encouraging ways that you can do this is through this series of books by Heather Holleman This last one is called this Seat Saved. There are four. And you know what? We got a seat saved for you right after this break. Don't lose it. We'll see you right on the other side of the song.
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If The Lord Builds The House by Hope Darst and Jon Reddick: I built up my own day but the walls couldn't stay I trusted my own strength but it was seeking so I put my r into your head hands and watch you restore them like only you can Cuz if the Lord builds the house nobody can tear it down if m the Lord builds the house nobody can tear it down when it fill on his name there's nothing they going to shake this crown if the Lord builds the house nobody can tear it down welcome back, friends.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is if the Lord builds this house by Hope Darst and Jon Reddick And what an encouraging truth. I want to encourage all of you out there who are working on building the houses, the foundations of your families. And you're doing that hard work. But I promise you, miss you. It is the mundane that God uses as miraculous in your parenting journey. It's not those high moments, those one great conversations, those one great connection points. It's all of the carpooling that you're doing. It's the peanut butter and jelly sandwiches that you're making. It's the laundry that you're washing, it's the times that you tuck kids in at night. Those things matter. They matter so much more than you know. On depending. Don't let anybody tell you different. Don't let anybody discourage you. Because sometimes our kids are not the best at, giving us affirmation. It'd be great to have somebody stand in the corner of your house saying, hey, you just did a great job discipling right there. You just balanced love and truth so well. I would love that if I had that. But I've got somebody who will do that for you today.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Start learning about Jesus with your children
My guest today is Heather Holleman She's a speaker, she's an author, she's a professor. She's brilliant. She's written a lot of different books. The books that we're talking about today are a fictional series, the Elita Brown series for middle schoolers. And I encourage you, if you have any middle school, middle schooler in your life, give them a copy of this book, get it for the holidays. It's such a powerful message that no matter if you can't find a seat in the world around you, you are already seated in Christ. And Heather, you have just been such a force of encouragement already today. I, I just, just, I feel my spirit just lighter after talking to you. And right before the break, I was just saying, how about how kids are so eager to learn? They want to know about Jesus. They want to know from a trustworthy source, not just from chat or, you know, some influencer online. And they love being treated like adults. And you and I were having a great behind the scenes conversation and we said, let's bring this to air. So I would love for you to share your thoughts on, on that.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, I just know that there might be listeners that are thinking, gosh, my relationship with Jesus isn't that strong. I don't really know what I'm doing. Well, one thing I've learned is how much children value authenticity. So when I say to my girls, I am really struggling here, I want to start reading my Bible. I don't know what to do. I think I'm going to read the psalms or study the book of John. Do you guys want to do it with me? I remember one summer I did summer devotions where at the table, I said, okay, we're going to read the psalms and figure out, you know, what we learn about God because I really need encouragement this summer. The other thing is starting a family prayer journal. Even this morning I Talked to my 21 year old daughter and said, okay, what do you have for the prayer journal or the PJ, we call it that just means do you have two or three requests that I can pray for you and my girls now say, what about you, mom? What are you trusting God for today? Because nobody has arrived on their journey with Jesus. And so even if you're like, I don't really know what I'm doing, I don't know how to teach my children. My favorite teaching quote from Parker Palmer is, we teach what we most need to learn, learn. So telling your girls or your boys, you know, your children, look, I really want to grow in understanding who Jesus is and my seat, ah, at the table. Let's do it together. It'll create a sense of warm connection with your children and they'll really value the authenticity. Kids love that they do not like hypocrites. They don't like fake parents. They want real parents that are like, here's where I'm struggling, here's what we're going to do as a family. So that's what I recommend if you're struggling where if you don't feel strong in your faith, start learning and bring your children into what you're learning about him.
For dads of middle school age daughters, sometimes that can be tough time
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you talked about the organization that you and your husband started and you're talking about doing things together as a family. And I think particularly Heather, for dads of middle school age daughters, sometimes that can just be a really tough time for them because the ways they may have had of connecting before just don't seem to matter now. And I would encourage dads. Your words matter so much. I mean, I can tell my middle school daughter, I could tell her, you know, that she was beautiful and she'd be like, you have to say that because you're my mom. But if her dad told her she was beautiful, it was like, oh, so I'm a princess, am I? I mean, it had, carries like a different weight. How is your husband? Tell me about the ministry you have together and what advice do you have specifically for dads who may gain insight from your books that you've written into a middle school girl's world?
Dr. Heather Holleman: I, mean, you didn't even Know how you were setting this up, but one of the passions of our heart is I wrote a. A book called Six Conversations. Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. And Ash and I, we give workshops all the time on how to have better conversations. Now he's a shy, introverted. I mean, he was an organic chemist. So, goodness. When I. When my girls turned 13, it was really important that he knew how to engage them in meaningful conversations. So even asking questions like, okay, on a scale of 1 to 10, what kind of day did you have? And then what would have had to happen to make it a 10? You know, just little tricks that we would do to, like, engage people. The other thing Ash did was he learned to get really involved in whatever they cared about. I'll never forget the year Ash, sat down and watched the entire Gilmore Girls series. Because one of my daughters loved Gilmore Girls. He also learned to cross stitch. One year, he actually sat on the couch with one of my daughters and learned how to cross stitch because, she really wanted to do things like, you know, knitting and cross stitch. And so Ash really had to decide, okay, how am I going to get and involved in the lives of these two girls? He didn't have those natural abilities. One of the things, though, is don't be afraid to ask meaningful questions. We talk about the four mindsets. You know, be curious about your children, believe the best about them, express concern about whatever is going on. You can even say, okay, what's your major stressor tomorrow? I want to. I want to pray for whatever's going on, and don't forget to share your life. So we often talk to parents a lot about. It's okay. Here are some good questions you can start out with. Teenagers love to talk about their friends, so don't ask, like, how are you? Or, how was school? Say, hey, who'd you hang out with at school? Who surprised you the most? You know, they like to talk about things like the little girls next door. Whenever I don't know what to ask, I'll say, okay, were you a packer or buyer today? Tell me about your lunch. Because people love to talk about, like, what they ate or, you know, their animal friends, whatever it is. So if you buy, the seats saved, you may want to think about the six conversations or just figuring out, okay, I need a set of good questions to engage with my daughter. And these can be, like you said, in the minivan, around the table on the way to church, easy times when, as a dad, you can just ask your daughter Good questions. If you don't know how to enter into her world, you can say, okay, what is the music everyone's listening to? Or, like, what is everyone watching on TV right now? Just make your week weakness your greatest strength. In other words, whatever the problem is, that's the solution. So you say to your daughter, I have a problem. I have no idea how to connect with you. Tell me, like, what is the funniest thing you heard today in school? I don't even know the words people are using. I did that with my own college students, and they were like, Dr. H, here's what everyone's saying. And they gave me all the words. I was like, what do you mean? I'm LARPing. Someone's LARPing. If they're being fake, they still say chopped and unk. I, Do they say that in Texas?
Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Compliment them too much, they'll say, stop glazing me, Dr. H. So it's just make the problem the solution. I have a problem. I don't know how to connect with you guys. Help me. So you're gonna. You're gonna do great. If you're a dad listening, just ask a couple questions like, hey, tell me about your friends, or, tell me about whatever it is, and just make. Take that risk of forming a warm connection with Conversational connection.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Heather, that advice is gold. I mean, I am telling you, absolutely gold. Because if a dad goes to his daughter and says, hey, help me out. I don't understand this part of your world at all. Can you teach me about, like, show me your skin care routine. Everybody's talking about that. What is it? Oh, they will laugh the whole time that you might even get some moisturizer put on your face. Believe me, it'll be fine. But they love to be in the position of teaching teacher, and then it makes it more natural to be reciprocal. So I've taught you something. Now let. Now I'm gonna teach, you know, now you can teach me something. That's right. And they're more receptive to that. Instead of just you always being the teacher, always being the lecturer, always being the heavy, it's like we're learning from each other. It's this beautiful dynamic that I love. And before I let you go, Heather, because I listen, I could talk to you, like, all day long. this is so encouraging.
Heather: I encourage parents to cultivate intentionally godly mentors for their children
I do want to hear more about the ministry that you and your husband started and your heart for evangelist.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, we loved when I started speaking so much on Seated with Christ. So many, pastors were saying, gosh, I wish the men of the church could hear this. But we had also written a book called Sent Living a life that invites others to Jesus. Because once I knew I was seated just like my character Elita Brown, then you're sent. Part of the good works God has prepared for you. If you think of Acts 20:21 or, John 20:21, Jesus says, as the Father, Father has sent me, so I send you. So sending people out to be an agent of blessing and proclamation it change. It gives a young person such a great purpose to be like, wait, God, are you sending me to bless someone? To introduce them to Jesus, to invite them to the table? So two years ago, we started a ministry called Seated and Sent. And primarily now it's a coaching ministry. So Ash gathers cohorts of pastors. We often come and speak at churches who are reading Scent and. And we also do the six Conversations workshop, which is really evangelism training, how to have warm connections. So the gospel never really feels like a sales pitch or an awkward pivot in the conversation. So we've been doing that. We also are launching a podcast. We're doing a lot more with social media. So our website is called seatedandsent.com so you can follow us there. But. And we're working on some more books coming out in 2028. So we've got a lot going on. It's a lot of fun.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You do have a lot going on, and I'm so encouraged by it. And I feel like, you know, just, listening to you talk, you. You felt like a mentor to me today. Honestly, Heather, in a lot of ways. And I think that's something that we need to encourage and welcome into our lives sometimes. I think today, you know, we tend to be so closed, and we're so afraid of people seeing our dirty laundry or figuring out that our. Oh, news flash. Our family's not perfect. Sometimes it can be hard to ask those mentors into our life. That's one of the things I loved about your Elita Brown Seat Right series. Is that that mentor role that you talked about? how. What would you do to encourage parents to cultivate intentionally godly mentors for their children and welcome them into their life to reinforce the messages that we're giving them at home.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Well, I love. If ever there's a woman that I wish could speak into my own daughter's life, I love just going out to lunch as a family and then seeing those natural connection forms. We were the. One of the pastor's wives was out to lunch with us a couple Sundays ago. And I was amazed because Kate right away was like, wait, how did you know that you were going to marry your husband? And how did you know? Did you feel called to be a pastor's wife? I need to know the whole story. And before I knew it, they started texting, and I was like, okay, please take my daughter out to lunch. Teach her everything. And I love it when other moms say, yeah, here's how it. Cause I'm not a pastor's wife. Maybe God's calling Kate to become a pastor. Pastor's wife. And so you can identify those women. Encourage connections as a family, but you can also tell your children, always look for older women. My mentor, Sandy. I've got several women in my life that are older, in their 70s. Because I'm in my 50s. I initiate with them. I'm like, hey, I want to know, what should I be looking out for in the 50s or what? You know, the questions you're asking is really like, I need wisdom for this, this, and this. How do I protect my marriage? How do I parent adult children? Children, what's your best advice for health as I age? What's your best advice for retirement? There are so many questions at any age of life. You need older, wiser women to help you navigate them. I don't know. Do you collect mentors? I collect them. like, chocolate. I love them.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I absolutely do. It's so true. And I will say, like, I will take you to lunch now. Tell me everything that you know. Tell me the good, the bad, the ugly. I remember this one specific time, Heather, where I was. I was at La Madeleine's with this, with this mentor. We went there because, you know, they don't, like, tell you to leave the table. We could sit there for three hours and have a conversation. But the whole conversation that she told me, and it was when my kids were very young, she told me, don't love who your kids used to be more than they. Who they are becoming. Don't make them feel guilty for growing up. Don't say, oh, I loved this version of you when you were nice to me, when you wanted me in your life. Like, this was the best of your life. Like, even during those seasons of struggle, she said, celebrate each season, look forward to each season. Find something to love in each season. And that really stuck with me. And I think that really pivoted and shifted even how I looked at motherhood and that. It was just like one of those little gems that was just with me. So I am all about it. Heather, it's been so great to talk to you. I really. The series is called Elita Brown, but you heard Heather's got other books out there, too. You can find them Amazon and any other book retailer. And, this one that you're. You can look for is this seat saved.
The greatest gift you can give your kids is an identity built in Christ
And you'll find all of the other books. And really, this is one of the greatest gifts that when we're already looking forward. My holiday shopping is in full swing, let me tell you, because I, I am just waiting to get out the decorations. I know. I. Y' all think I'm crazy, but that's okay.
Dr. Heather Holleman: I'll stick with it the same way.
Dr. Jessica Peck: But the greatest gift you can give your kids is an identity that is built in Christ. A foundation that will never, ever shake, even in these waves of culture that are crashing against us. It is a foundation that is sure and that is steady. And the world is going to offer your kids plenty of tables, more than ever before. And some are built around popularity, some achievement, appearance, influence. And some require them to compromise. But the gospel gives us our kids a seat they already have. They're already seated in Christ. And Dr. Heather Holloman's this seat's yours concludes the series by reminding young readers that.
Dr. Heather Holleman: Hey.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Life struggles are part of becoming someone who depends on and reflects God. You're seated with Christ, and you're meant and sent to bless others. What in the world could be more encouraging than that? This seat is yours. I. I encourage you to have conversations with your kids like this at home and wherever you are, whatever you are doing, I pray, as I always do, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you and give you peace. I'll see you right back here tomorrow.
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Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Dr. Heather Holleman talks with Jessica about navigating middle school and finding a place to belong. She also shares about her book series for young adults, the "Elita Brown Series".
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Chapters:
(00:00) More than 80% of abortion vulnerable women choose life after seeing ultrasound at a PreBorn Network clinic
(01:47) Dr. Heather Holleman talks about middle school on American Family Radio
(06:38) Dr. Heather Holleman shares her personal testimony about ministry to middle schoolers
(12:13) Those messages just delivered over and over will take root in their heart
(12:41) Dr. Heather Holleman wrote a series of books about middle school girls
(16:49) Without people like you, this podcast would not exist
(18:53) Dr. Heather Holleman has written a series of books for middle schoolers
(23:34) Heather writes about how technology affects middle school friendships in new series
(26:13) All seats provide equal viewing of the universe, Hayden Planetarium guide says
(29:59) Dr. Heather Holleman says every rejection is God's protection
(34:12) Wesley Biblical Seminary trains pastors and Christian leaders through biblical education
(37:16) Dr. Heather Holleman: Start learning about Jesus with your children
(39:53) For dads of middle school age daughters, sometimes that can be tough time
(44:53) Heather: I encourage parents to cultivate intentionally godly mentors for their children
(49:43) The greatest gift you can give your kids is an identity built in Christ
(51:18) Preborn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion
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