Everyday Preborn Network helps mothers facing unexpected pregnancies discover hope through ultrasound
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Dr. Jessica Peck: he's here. We're gonna get through it and it's gonna be okay. Everyday PreBorn Network clinics helps mothers facing unexpected pregnancies discover hope through a free ultrasound. When a mother sees her baby and that tiny heartbeat, her baby is twice as likely to be given the gift of life. What story will God write through America's next generation? In honor of America's 250th anniversary, we're asking friends to consider a special gift of $250. Your gift can help provide nearly nine life saving ultrasounds. Dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250 baby. Or donate securely at preborn.com/AFR that's preborn.com/AFR afr Every gift is tax- deductible.
: Hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show, prescribing hope for healthy families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you prescribing hope for healthy families.
September 11th, 2001 changed people all over the country in profound ways
And as we are progressing through this year and on this day, there is a big, big day on the calendar that is looming. And there are some dates that just become etched into our collective memory. Sometimes as a nation, sometimes as a world, each generation has their own. Here in America, we know the greatest generation asks, where were you on VE Day? And the baby boomers all talk about where were you when JFK was assassinated? The Gen Xers ask, where were you when the Challenger exploded? And if you're a millennial or you were alive during this time, that pivotal moment for a generation was of course 9, 11 September 11, 2001. And for an entire generation and the generations previously, that day, it used to be just a date on the calendar, but now it's a moment that we remember almost viscerally where we were, what we were doing, who we were with, and really how the world seemed to change in a matter of hours. And we tend to think about September 11th with Geographic Pictures in our mind. We picture New York City, bright blue day with clouds of smoke. We picture the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, a field in Pennsylvania. We remember those images that came across our television screens and really the profound national grief that followed. But one of the things about tragedies like this is that it doesn't stay confined to the place where it happens. And September 11th changed people all over the country and impacted people in so many more ways, which we've seen documentarians spend decades now document the ways that people's lives have been impacted. And for today's guest, September 10th and 11th, 2001, was not just a day of national loss, but a day of personal loss. We're talking today to Tammy Trent. You may remember her as a Christian music recording artist and her husband, Trent, of 11 years. He lost his life in a scuba diving accident in Jamaica on September 10. And while the nation was experiencing that unimaginable collective trauma, for Tammy, that had a much more personal, personal lens on it. And it gives her a unique perspective for all of us who have ever looked at our own circumstances. September 11th or not, any difficulty, hardship in your life, and you've asked God, where are you? Because sometimes faith isn't tested by an intellectual question. It's tested by a phone call or a diagnosis, A, betrayal, a death, an unanswered prayer, or a life that you thought you had that all of a sudden disappeared. And that's one most difficult questions, but gut wrenching questions that we see in the Psalms. God, where are you? If God, if you care, if you love us, why does this hurt so much? And Tammy has spent decades wrestling honestly with these questions. She's an author and a speaker and a television host. She's ministered now for more than 31 years. And after her husband's death, she walked through a season of profound grief and healing before she returned to the stage and spent is now spent years as a featured speaker and performer with Women of Faith. Now she has written her story in a new book that is coming out. You can pre order it now. It's called where are you now, God? Discovering the unshakable truth that you are never alone. And she is inviting Christians to do what sometimes we're afraid to do. Ask the hard questions. Not because questioning God means you've abandoned your faith, but sometimes honesty is the doorway to a much deeper, more meaningful faith. And her message is not that Christians are going to receive a neat little explanation for every painful thing that happens. It's that even when God feels silent, he is not absent. So today, I want to tell you we are going to deal very honestly in this conversation with some really difficult subjects like death and grief and loss and abuse and trauma. And Tammy's story has those elements in it. But I just encourage you to use wisdom and discretion as you listen, Listen. And if you're walking through a season that's hard to reach out to someone for help and hope. And Tammy, I'm so grateful that you're here today to provide both of those things to our listeners. Thank you so much for joining us and spending time with us today.
Tammy Trent shares her story of overcoming grief and brokenness
Tammy Trent: I am so honored to be with you. I am sitting here in my home in Nashville, Tennessee, in my study, and listening to you speak, listening to you set up this time that we're about to have together. And I'm moved. I'm. I'm emotionally moved by it. it's my story you're sharing. You're talking about my life. And I think there's something so, profound when, When I'm sitting on the other side listening to somebody talk about me, my life, and, and setting the tone and setting the stage, it can be overwhelming because there's some part of it where I listen and think, I still cannot believe that this is my story. I can't believe that this is my path, my journey. And yet, at the same time, I can hold the tension of hurt and brokenness with. With the hope and the gratefulness of what God has done in my life and how far he's brought me. But it has not come easy, and it hasn't come without its challenges, uncertainties, and questions for God. And I'm truly honored to be sitting in this space with you. And I hope that it encourages somebody today that might be wrestling with their own questions right now.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Tammy, I can only share those elements of your story because you have shared them so graciously, so transparently, so authentically. And I know that you've told your story many, many times now on the stage, and it, just as part of your personal testimony, but it still costs you something to share that grief and that pain. And I do not take that lightly. And I know that the way that even now that you're spe, there are already people leaning in, saying, okay, I feel like I'm in the valley. How can I get to that place? And.
Tammy writes about growing up, finding the Lord, and that diving accident
And Tammy, before we talk about that tragic day that your husband, Trent, lost his life and that diving accident, that wasn't the first time in your life that you had experienced hardship or trial or trauma or tragedy or pain. And you went through some really difficult things as a child. But even then, I can see through reading your story, through hearing you, your faith was being forged. Talk about little girl Tammy growing up, finding the Lord, and the events of your life that led up to that moment in September.
Tammy Trent: Yeah, it's so interesting that you'd set it up that way. I think in my life now, at 58 years old, in the last few years, I've. I've been faced with the. The moments of going back and looking at my younger self, looking at moments that happened in my life, things that I never dealt with, things that I. I tucked away, things that I put under a rug, things that I never wanted to talk about. And so now, later in life, I felt like, especially with all these different questions that I have in this season and other people, I thought, you know what? It's only fair that I go back and kind of look at some of the things in my own childhood. It's only fair to me, to find healing, or have I found healing? What was the root of certain things in my life? When I was a little girl, I didn't even know there was a root. I don't even think I heard the word there's a root. so I think I just started uncovering some stuff as I began to write this book. And I hit it hard out of the box. Like, I started talking about things I have never talked about with anyone except for my mother, my sister, my best friend, just like, 10 years ago. But beyond them and that experience, I had never shared it. So I go back to those early years, of divorce, within my family, feeling like I was truly stuck in the middle of a broken home and wanting a father so desperately in my life every day, and not having that and trying to navigate that as a little girl and how it already began to shape me and affect me as a little girl. But again, not knowing there's a root, not knowing there was a thing I just was trying to survive and not knowing even what was going on in my little heart at six years old and seven years old, looking back now, I can totally See patterns, that I was beginning to form how things were beginning to shape me as a little girl. Feeling things of maybe a little bit of abandonment, but more so the brokenness of a family and a father's love not being there. And it was shortly after that that I went through some sexual trauma in my life as a little girl. And And that's something I carried my whole life and didn't talk to anybody about it. I think the shame, but more of the guilt or more of even for me, the unknown not understanding and the confusion that began to see set in, during that season in my life. And even as a young girl, I, I know now I can identify it, but then I couldn't identify that I was beginning to struggle with identity in my life as, as a little girl because I really didn't know at 6, 7, 8 years old, with identity in Christ even really meant. So again, I'm just carrying all these little bits and pieces of hurt and pain and disappointment and brokenness and an abuse in my life into every season of my life. And then I meet this amazing kid in my youth group when I'm 15 years old and I'm allowed to date him when I'm 16. He ends up being an incredible guy, an incredible covering in my life. So good that I'm like, I don't want to talk to him about these other things in my life that, that he would maybe think less of me then. I need to be a perfect picture of the perfect catch even for his family. And because they came from money, they came from education, they came from a lot. And I felt less than. So I'm like, I'm not going to tell him all this stuff. He thinks I'm, he thinks I'm pretty special right now. So we start dating. I carry a lot of those wounds with me, but I can see how they're even beginning to affect some of my marriage a little bit in the way I trust them, maybe even the way I treat them a lot of different things. and I, I jumped right into the marriage because we dated for seven and a half years. I went off to Bible college and came back and thought, I don't want to live without this guy another day. So we got married and, and even though I, I can go back and trace even some of our dating relationship, the way that we walk that out the way again, I can go back to the way I responded to things, the way I might have treated him, in. In certain situations, trusting abandonment, not Thinking he was going to be around forever kind of thing. So in our marriage, I carried all of that in there as well. And in not opening up about stuff, but honestly, it was one of the safest places my heart had ever known was in this marriage covered by this guy. It was the first time I'd ever truly known love. Deeply, consistently, faithfully, without condition, without keeping the score. Like, this guy was steady for me and faithful. And he loved the Lord, so he led me well. And yet it was everything I took for granted in our marriage. yet never thinking I would live a day without this kind of love in my life. I signed my first record deal in 1995. I took his first name as my last name. Together we were Tammy and Trent Linderink. But I became Tammy Trent on the platform. He started, traveling with me in ministry, he started managing me, and he became my full time ministry partner. So we went wherever God opened up a door. We just traveled, we went, we flew, we took a bus, we took a boat. Wherever it was, we went because we wanted to serve people and love people well. And I could sense, even in this season of being around him my whole life, there was just little bits and pieces of healing and wholeness that was beginning to take shape. And yet there was always that foundation of hurt and pain that I never dealt with. So, again, I'm holding attention of all of those things at the same m time.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Tammy, just hearing you talk about it, it just, it makes my heart ache a little bit. And I'm so grateful for the way that you're talking about it because you shared your age. We are in the same generation. And Tammy, our generation just didn't talk about things like that. It was really. We didn't understand what trauma did to the brain. We didn't understand the ways that God had designed our body biologically to protect ourselves from trauma, to go into a protective mode of the way it impacts memory, the way it impacts attachment. And to hear you talking about those things, I know that you sharing your story is going to bring freedom to other people who are listening, who have experienced that trauma, that grief and that pain. And to know that there's ways that we can go back and that we can find healing from that is amazing. And Tammy, as you're telling your story, you know, we started with the, with the spoiler. We know, we know what happened. We know the terrible tragedy that, that Trent dies. And we're about to talk about that. And yet, Tammy, and yet what you started your story with was still that God is still good, that God is still for you, that your faith is still there, though imperfect and in the middle of messiness and brokenness, it is still there. And we're up against our first break, but when we come back, we'll talk about that fateful trip to Jamaica and your experience and what that was like and the ways that God was with you.
Tammy Trent's new book, Where are you now, God?
And one of the things I really appreciate about reading this book to my listeners. Where are you now, God? Discovering the unshakable truth that you're never alone. You can pre order it now. I appreciate it. She doesn't offer a simplistic answer. She doesn't say, if you have enough faith, everything's going to be fine. She just consistently points you to a God who meets you right in the middle of those messy questions. And that is really important because I know a lot of you aren't asking theoretical questions about suffering. You're living the very real realities of that. And I have found such help and such hope and the testimony of Tammy Trent. And when we come back, we'll talk more with her. And there is someone in your life who just needs you to put this book in their hands and just say, hey, I see your pain. I see what you're going through. I just thought this might encourage you. We'll have more words to encourage you right on the other side of this break. Don't go away. We'll be right back.
Without people like you, this podcast would not exist
Hello, I'm Jessica peck, host of Dr. Nursemama. did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. And that's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast. Please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.net/give that's afr.net/give.
Make It Well by MercyMe: Making well with my soul don't let me face this loneliness alone May thinking well with my soul I need a peace that only heaven knows Jesus, could you please just sit and cry with me till I can sing? Till I can sing? It is well with my m soul it is well with my m soul Whatever my life, you are still my God it is well, it is well
Dr. Jessica Peck: with my soul welcome back, friends. That is make it well. By MercyMe Of course. Those lyrics are inspired by one of the most beloved hymns of all time, it is well. And if you're not familiar with that story, those lyrics were pinned by a man named Horatio Spafford, who lost everything in a Chicago fire and then lost all of his children in a ship that sank afterwards. And as he was sailing past the point where his children had perished, penned those words. And it is that kind of hope in the midst of that kind of suffering that gets the world's attention. People understand anger and bitterness and pain, but they don't understand peace in the middle of pain. And today we're talking about that. And as we continue, we're talking about some really tough themes of grief and death and loss and abuse and unanswered prayer. And I know that can be especially tender for anyone who's walking through something tough right now. But I really hope that you won't change the dial. I hope that you'll stay with us and hear Tammy's remarkable story, not of a, happy ending, but a hopeful ending. We're talking today to Tammy Trent. You may recognize her as a Christian music recording artist. She is a speaker, an author, and she is an author of a new book that is coming out called where are you now, God? Discerning the unshakable truth that you're never alone. I've read this book, and it really. It really got a hold of me. And I know that there's a particular kind of exhaustion that just comes from feeling like you're in a season of struggle or grief or pain. And we can handle a lot when we know that there's an expiration date, when we know something's going to be over. But what happens when the diagnosis doesn't change, when that relationship doesn't get restored, when the person we've lost isn't coming back this side of heaven? That prayer doesn't get answered. And Tammy says story really speaks into that tension. And Tammy, we were just talking about you losing your precious husband, Trent on September 10th. September 11th, 2001. Yes, that was the day of 9, 11. And while we were thinking of New York skylines, you were experiencing that day in a much different lens. And so I would love to just give you the invitation to share in whatever way you would like about Trent, his life and his loss.
Tammy Trent: I sure will. So we had been together for 18 years at this point, dated seven and a half, married for 11, had a record deal, about two albums that had come out. We were traveling the world together, ministry. We've moved to Nashville, built our first home here. We're here for two years. Got a call to go to Jamaica on a mission trip. Thought, man, this is a great season to go, because we kind of also wonder what's next. What does God have next for us as a couple? Is it starting a family? Is it a mission field? Is it writing a book, another album? Like, what is it, God? We just want to be in your will. Because I think when we're in your will, truly, that's when I find the greatest peace. That's when I know my purpose. That's when I know my identity. That's when I know so much clearer who you are. And I can listen to you better when I'm walking right with you aligned, with you in your will. So let's take off to Jamaica and let's seek God and say, like, what's next?
Trent was free diving in the Blue Lagoon when he disappeared
So we took off on vacation for one week before we were to begin our mission trip on the other side of the island. So on this day in between, we traveled to this place called the Blue Lagoon. Trent wanted to free dive in the Blue Lagoon. He'd been a certified diver since the age of 12, so he wanted to dive in the Blue Lagoon with his. With his underwater scooter. And that day we headed there to the edge of the water. And, in the middle of this lagoon was a hole that went down about 100, 190 maybe to 240ft deep. And he had researched it, he had learned about it, and he said, I want to explore in the Blue Lagoon. So we're sitting there on the edge of the water. He suits up. He says, I'm going to be gone for 15 minutes, and when I get back, we'll go hang out and do something that you want to do. He got into the water, and halfway between the dock and that hole, he lifted up his head out of the water and he waved goodbye to me, and I waved back to him. And then he sunk beneath the surface and he was gone. I had no idea at that moment that that would be the last time I would ever see Trent again. I watched him come up and down for breath every few minutes because he was free diving that afternoon. That's when you hold your breath, you go in the water without oxygen. And he could hold his breath up to about three minutes underwater. So I watched him from afar, maybe every once in a while, come up and down. And then I just lost track of him. So 15 minutes turned into 30, into 45, into an hour. And I realized, man, I hadn't seen Trent. So I got close to the edge of the water and I started to look out in this lagoon, and I still saw nothing. And I remember at that moment, fear began to grip every part of my body. I was beginning to feel hopeless. I Knew something had shifted. I knew something had changed, and I couldn't do anything about it. I felt so. So completely crippled at that moment. And I remember going into this back room of this restaurant by myself, and I started to, lift up my hands and I started to pray. And it's like the only prayer that would even come out of my mouth was, help. God, help me. I don't know what to do, but I need help. And I need you to fix this. I need you to help me. I'm not smart enough. I'm not brave enough. I just. I feel numb. I feel lost. And I don't know how to fix any of this. And I need you to step in right now like you promised you would. And I need you to carry me right now. God, fix this. And I called in a dive team that began to search for Trent. And they searched through the night until it got too dark. And they said, tammy, we have to call the search off. We can't find them. We'll start again in the morning. And I went up to a home of two doctors that watched out for me that night. And the next morning, the doctor came into my room and he said, tammy, come quickly and look at the television screen. And I walked into that room the morning of September 11, 2001, as the second plane plowed into the Twin Towers in NewSong York City. And I thought for the first time in m my life, like, this must be the end of the world, because nothing made sense to me. America's falling apart. My own personal world is falling apart, like God, where are you in all of this? Where are you? I can't find you. I can't see you. I don't sense your goodness in any of this right now. And. And then I got the call that my family was grounded on planes all across the country. Not one person could get to me. And again, I thought, God, why? Like, how could this be good for my life? And then I got the next call that they found Trent in the Blue Lagoon. He was still hanging on to his underwater scooter. They found him about a hundred feet deep. And, he took his last breath. Something had struck him over the head, which I don't know what it was, but it was enough to knock him out. And he took his last breath, and he didn't survive. And I remember getting that news and just falling to the ground. I didn't know how I would survive. I just cried and I cried and I wept. And I was trying desperately to find the presence of God in that moment. And it was two days later that I was in a hotel room. And I found myself in a bathroom just clean to the vanity, just crying out to God, I need you. Where are you? I need you. Send me somebody could you just send me somebody that would hold me? I miss my mom, my sister, my best friend. Just send me somebody that would hold me I, I'm aching. It's the disappointment, the unmet expectations, like all the hurt everything is, is crashing on me right now. And the thought that I have to now walk out life by myself to try to carry this. I, I, it's too much for me to bear. Could you just send me somebody to hold me? And I remember walking out of that room and, hearing somebody in the adjoining room. I made my way over there to that opening in the doorway. Now saw this beautiful Jamaican woman standing there in a Hilton housekeeping outfit. And she looked at me, she said, I've been trying to get to you. I could hear you crying and I've been trying to get to you. And then she said, could I just come in and hold you? And it was an instant answer to my prayer. I knew at that moment, as she walked in and wrapped her arms around me, she began to pray for me. She had no idea what was going on in my life. I had no idea she was a believer. But she started to pray for me.
Tammy writes about the loss of her husband Trent in her new book
And I knew somehow in that moment, I knew it was a settling of my soul, that I wouldn't just survive, but somehow I would overcome and it wouldn't happen overnight. That God was going to take me on a journey of healing that I had never experienced before, and that my testimony would somehow become hope for somebody else that feels stuck, that feels abandoned, that doesn't know how to find God or the presence of God in the worst moments of their lives. And that became my calling, that became my step in. And I came home from that time and the healing began. And it has been 25 years without Trent. And I don't think I will ever not be able to tell that story and not feel punched in the gut. Oh, I'm healed. God has brought great healing in my life. I can shout it from a mountaintop, but just because I feel the ache sometimes doesn't mean that God has not healed my life. That that's the, the realness of what I've walked through and the massive, enormous loss that I feel every single day from this guy's presence in my life. But I can still rejoice in the goodness and faithfulness of God that has brought me to this place today. And, you know, people talk about the presence of God, and it is one of the things that has rescued me so deeply. And that's why this book is so centered around that message of discovering the unshakable truth, that you're never alone, that God never abandons us. There's a promise after promise after promise where he speaks directly to us like, I will never leave you to carry this. You are not alone. I didn't promise you you wouldn't have trouble, but I did promise you that I'd be there for you. And you can take heart that I've overcome the world like, not I will one day, but I have now. And so this is not going to be an easy journey this side of heaven, but somehow you will get through it. But the presence of God, the thing that I've learned is God's. God's presence is a truth before you can even experience it. So God's presence is a truth before it's an experience. So some people say, I've never known. I've never known the presence of God. It's a truth. So you have to land on the truth of God's word. And once you get that into your spirit, then, I think, then becomes the experience. Because feelings can come and go, but his presence always remains the same, no matter how we feel.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Tammy, you speak with such confidence. And yet I feel like people listening will say, how. How can you. How can you be so confident and thinking the prayer that you want answered is for Trent to be rescued, Trent to be found, Trent to be alive, not for a housekeeper to come. Although I. I cried when I read that in your book. It was so beautiful to see that, Tammy. And, you. You're 25 years later now. What does it look like to take those first few steps about just seeing God's providence and sending someone to you? He says he will never leave us, never forsake us. And he gave you someone tangible to express his love. What does those. What are those first few days look like? I can't even imagine, even for you. Especially trying to get home when all of the flights are grounded and you are just so completely alone. And especially after feeling like you had experienced tragedy in your childhood. But here was Trent. Here was your happy ending. That was all good. You were on a mission trip in Jamaica. It wasn't even like you were just. Just there just for fun. You were there on mission. And then to see that loss, what do those first few. Few days, few weeks, few months, what does that Part of the grief.
Tammy Trent: Look like you want the honest word. Awful. Absolutely horrific. Awful. Kicked and screamed. Hated it. Hated the new plan. Hated that everything changed. Hated the new normal. Didn't know what to do. Felt lost. wondered how I would survive on my own. How will I pay my bills? How will I travel? I mean, everything. Every question. Especially us girls, us women that have. When. When there's a man that provides, it takes care of that God has set into our lives in place like Trent was. And then it's just gone. I didn't get to say goodbye one last time. I didn't get to say I love you. It's just shifted. It's changing. So, yes. Now what do you do with it? It was. It was awful. And, and so what I did with that tension of the hurt and the awful and the, oh, I hate this is. How do I hold hope at the same time? Because I think it's possible to do the same.
Tammy Trent says she's honest with God about her pain and doubts
So that became my. My fight for my spiritual life of holding those two things, like giving myself permission. Like, pain is real, but so is hope. So I'm acknowledging my pain. I'm talking to Jesus about the ache that I feel. I'm honest with him. I'm kicking the lawnmower when I'm trying to mow the grass. I'm shouting. I'm, doing all the feels. I have such an honest relationship with God that, that he probably says, hey, put a filter on it, Tammy. But I. He gets all of it from me. But I love that because I feel safe with him. I know that he's not put off by my doubts. He's not put off by my questions. He's not put off by my. My anger at times. I. I know that I'm working through constantly things. I'm a work in progress. But I love that he doesn't say, I'm, out of here till you get your act together. I have always had a healthy understanding of God's love for me. And I think you have to almost start there. We can all, all settle on, oh, he's. He's my savior, died on the cross. Thank you for that. But sometimes we miss the. The depth of his love. And sometimes it's hard for us to wrap our. Our heads around the fact that he loves us so unconditionally. And if you don't know the love of the Father in your life, I think that becomes such a point of struggle to trust him, to grow in your faith. And so I've also learned, even in that awful season of Putting the pieces back together again. Learning to trust God when the answers didn't come for me. But also learning that my faith was not built on circumstances. My faith is not built on the outcome of what I hope for. It's built on the knowing that I know who Christ is in my life and what his promise says. If I can go back to, Let me think of, Psalms 3418. The Lord is near to the brokenhearted, and he saves. He saves those whose spirits are crushed. Okay, there's one huge promise for me, Tammy.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You have so many more words of encouragement. I have goosebumps. You're so right. The Lord is close to the brokenhearted. He welcomes our honesty. We see that poured out throughout the Psalms. If you think that it's not okay to be honest with God, read the Psalms. And you can't heal what you're not willing to name. And when it's hard, we say that it's hard. And we'll talk more about where is God now? In the middle of whatever you're facing. More with Tammy Trent on the other side of this break. Don't go away.
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Rescue by Jordan St. Cyr: oh, I've been desperate cried those loud prayers like Job on his knees saying, lord, I need more than a little help I've been surrounded felt fear on all sides like Daniel and the lions I know when I, fight, I don't fight by myself When I needed rescue Jesus, you came came through oh, in my heart is season your promise hell. Ah, true and every time I've given in, Lord, you've proven again that you're still my savior. Now, Jesus, you came through when I needed rest. Rescue.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Rescue by Jordan St. Cyr. And I know there are some of you listening who are begging God to rescue you from whatever circumstance you're facing right now, whether that's loss or betrayal or pain or abuse or trial, whatever it is that you're going through. When we are in the middle of pain, we want so desperately for God to rescue us. We're talking today to Tammy Trent about her new book coming out. It's called where are you now, God? Discovering the unshakable truth that you're never alone. You can pre order it. You may need this in your life. I guarantee you, you know, someone in your life who needs this message of hope, just put it in their ho. in their hand, send it to their house and just say, hey, I thought this might encourage you. That's all that you need to say. We're talking today about some tough things. Tammy has shared very transparently the loss of her beloved husband, Trent, on a tragic diving accident on September 10, 2001. And while the attention of the world was in NewSong City, her world was falling apart a world away in Jamaica. And she shared her journey of hope and healing. And she's talking about asking it, naming it, reclaiming it, how to ask those hard questions. How do we name that grief and trauma and disappointment or shame or rejection or unanswered prayers? How do we name those honestly before the Lord, and then begin to reclaim your identity and your purpose and your future? Because there is a very different place of faith than just living in survival mode and pretending everything is fine. Biblical faith does not require you to deny pain. We have a savior who is not unacquainted with suffering. He suffered, and he is close to the brokenhearted, as Tammy has told us. And again and again, Scripture gives us people who cry out to God in confusion and grief and fear and disappointment and unfairness, and God meets them right there. Tammy, how do you see God meeting you in the midst of unanswered prayers? And how do you move that faith from being fragile to being strong and resilient? What does that look like walking that out?
Tammy Trent: Such good questions. And can I. Can I interject and say something here, too? Yes, because we talk about questions, right? So a lot of people, even think, like, can I even ask God the hard questions? Many people have been raised in a church where they also think like I can't ask God, I'm not allowed.
Dr. Jessica Peck: He. He's.
Tammy Trent: He's the Almighty, the sovereign God. But I'm telling you, Jesus, even dying on the cross, right? He said, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? So even Jesus, just as you said, Jesus is no stranger to pain and weeping and losing friends and all the things he understands what you're going through. He totally gets it. So you must know that you were in the best place possible to bring whatever you have, whatever you're carrying today at the foot of the cross. This book is. Touches on so many different things. The diagnosis, the divorce, the wayward child, the finances, the betrayal, the rejection. And you're right, the, the ultimate reclaiming this in your life. How can you name these things, lay them down, ask the Father the questions, but then begin to walk in true freedom and breakthrough in your life so that you don't have to keep carrying this wound over and over again. Where the enemy tries to tell you the lie of who you are and the shame on your life and the how guilty you should feel, feel for this and the way something was handled years ago in your life. It is time for you to reclaim who God says you are. Step into your proper identity and your purpose and knowing what that is. And when you do, I'm telling you, you will have the upper hand over the voice of the enemy. And you will tell him, I am not listening to you anymore. You don't get to keep me in a box. I am breaking through and I'm going to live a fulfilled life in Jesus name. No matter how, how hurt I feel, the ache that I feel, I will get through this. So this book will guide you. It gives you tools, biblical stories that align with stories that you can relate to so that you don't feel isolated and that you can keep growing in your faith.
Man, unanswered prayers are hard. They are really, really hard
Man, unanswered prayers are hard. They are really, really hard. And I think it's the exhaustion of praying the same prayer over and over again. And it's not just the emotional fatigue that you feel, but it's. People feel like, where is God? Like, I, I feel like he's silent, he's not there, he's not listening to me. But the thing that I've learned is that delayed answers are not always an indication of God's absence in your life. There's never a time when Jesus is not speaking. He's always present in your life. And so sometimes his greatest work isn't just changing our circumstances, is sustaining us while we wait. On God through the different seasons we're walking through and trusting Him. Him with all the pieces of our lives.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Tammy, that's exactly the opposite of what the world tells you to do. The world tells you to seek justice, to help yourself, to, you know, do some. Some things that aren't necessarily bad. We want to have healing, but outside of your reunification with God, the strengthening of your faith, that hope is so shallow. And I remember listening to the testimony of a man who talked about his young child, child being killed in a very tragic accident. Such an unfair, horrible thing that just happened out of the blue. And he talked about being in the midst of his pain and his grief and being in his room and just wailing on the floor, just laying face down. And he said that the Lord told him, you need to get up and you need to worship me. And I think to so many people that that would sound like, oh, what kind of, you know, narcissistic being would that be? But this man said he knew that he was developing a root of bitterness and anger towards God, and God did not want that for him, that he needed God's strength and his vision and his purpose. And. And he wanted to be with him. And he got up and he. He worshiped God in that moment, and he said that was when that he. He didn't give up. He let go. And that's what you talked about in your book.
Tammy says worship helps calm her heart when prayers seem unanswered
And I want to know, Tammy, worship has been such a big part of your life, whether through song or through speaking or just the way that you live your life. How has worship helped realign your heart when those emotions are so overwhelming over those prayers that seem unanswered at the time?
Tammy Trent: Goodness. I think it's just honestly surrender. Worship is surrender for me. It takes my mind and my. My heart off of myself and my circumstances, and somehow it settles my soul in those moments of total let go and surrender and, and trusting, the presence of God in my life, that. That he has something good for me, that he promises goodness. So I think for me, it just, it. It sets a tone and an atmosphere. I think about worship for me in that moment. And it was in April, my birthday of this year, and I've had the word cancer spoken over my life a handful of times, and I've had a few skin cancers removed from. From my body. And I remember, getting a biopsy on the end of my nose in April. She was so concerned that it might be cancer. And I remember carrying the weight of that. And I go every four months for a Full body skin check. And every four months in between, I carry the weight of wondering if I'm going to hear that it's something more serious this time. But I remember coming into my bedroom thinking of worship. And I remember carrying this weight every day and what if. And oh, the nose and God, why? And all, the, the things. But I remember kneeling down and I got on my knees in my bedroom. And I lifted up my hands and I surrendered. And I said, Jesus, I know you love me. I know you have good things for me. I know you know the weight that I'm carrying. You're fully aware of this. And that I'm scared and that I don't know what would happen. If it's cancer. I don't know what kind of surgery involved. I don't know, know how it would change the way I look. If I had cancer on my nose and I had to remove it, like all the things, I just surrendered it. And I said, God, I worship you in this moment. The Lord of my life, the maker of all things good in my life. You created me for good. You know everything that's going to happen in my life. So if you know about this, then I have to trust that you also know the outcome. So I surrender this and I trust, trust you with it. No matter what. I know that you will carry me through the whole thing. Even if it's not what I hope it will be. I know it's not the end of my story. Just like the story of the road to Emmaus. These guys were so disappointed in what they thought and what they hoped was going to be. They thought Jesus dying on the cross like he was dead. And they thought, and they hoped he was the Messiah. They thought he was the one to redeem Israel. But now he was dead. And they're walking the road to Emmaus, kicking up the dust, disappointed, so upset, thinking, oh, this didn't go the way we wanted. We, hoped he was the one. And this guy catches up to them saying, what's, what's going on? What are you guys talking about? So we asked them the question. He gives them room to talk and he listens to them as they share all their disappointment, their venting their unmet expectations, everything. And they keep walking. And then this guy also challenged them a little bit, tries. He goes back into scriptures and, and, and talks about Moses and the prophets and trying to connect the dots for them. But they are so disappointed and overwhelmed in their disappointment that they can't even, they can't even hear what he has to say, but it's getting dark. They loving his company, so they say, come on in to have dinner with us. So he comes on in, they sit at the table, and this guy reaches for the bread and he blesses it and he breaks it. And all of a sudden, something shifts in that moment. These guys are looking at this man and they're like, what is different about him, the way he's breaking the bread? There's something so familiar, and all of a sudden it's just revealed to them. It's Jesus. It's Jesus setting right here. And I'm sure they're freaking out, going, I cannot believe this. And just like that, Jesus disappears. He's gone. They push back from the table, and they're like, are you kidding? We're not, Our hearts burning within us. When he was talking to us on the road, like, did we not recognize? But it was like, no. Like, we knew something was different in his presence, but we didn't know. We didn't recognize it was him because we were just so disappointed in. In the. In what might be or the. The things we hope for. But they push back, and in their excitement, like, we got to go back to Jerusalem and tell everybody he's alive. And the truth is that the end of the story, what we thought was the end of the story was not the end at all. It's the beginning with this beginning of something great. And I think that's the biblical truth of that story. The road to Emmaus is that sometimes we are so disappointed that we can't recognize Jesus, but. But we have no idea sometimes that he's the very one walking with us every step that we take. So you are never alone. Trust me when I tell you these are real stories from the Bible, real people that experience the same kinds of things we're experiencing today. But the truth of that particular story is that Jesus never left their side. That was his promise. Then it's his promise today. He's not going to leave your side. So. So even in a moment of worship, get there. Get to that place of laying it all down before the one who would do more than just get you through the storm.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Tammy, my eyes betray me as you speak, because what you're saying is so countercultural and it doesn't make sense. And you think, how can you find that peace? But then when you see that people.
Tammy, I'm convinced Trent's death has saved and will save many lives
People want that, people want that kind of unshakable truth, and you remind me of the story of Joseph in the Bible who was mistreated by his brother, brothers Thrown in a pit and sold into slavery. And when his brothers come back, you know, I remember reading in the Scriptures about how he withdrew to a private place and he wept because he was so emotional. It wasn't like this made for tv moving ending where it's like, oh, here come the brothers, and here's the happy ending. No, it was messy. But he said also he said what Satan intended for evil, God intended for good and the saving of. Of many lives. And Tammy, I am convinced, listening here today, I'm convinced that Trent's death has, saved and will save many lives. I believe that your testimony will bring people to an eternal saving faith in Christ, and that is the legacy that he can have. And as people are listening to the hope that you profess so confidently but so honestly and so authentically, that is what is going to draw people to Christ. And Tammy, I'd love to give one last invitation to people who may be in the middle of that grief journey, who haven't come 25 years or as far as you have. What do you invite them to do? In reading your book and hearing your story, what is your invitation?
Tammy Trent: Ultimately, I hope people walk away knowing they're truly never alone. Not just because I said it, but because they felt it. They felt and had an encounter with God, just like I have. I want them to discover that even in the middle of their hardest seasons and hardest questions, deepest grief, their most uncertain moments, that God is still with them, working m in ways they might not even be able to see yet. I hope they find a deeper faith, one that doesn't ignore the hard stuff, but finds God right in the middle of it all.
Dr. Jessica Peck: If your heart is burning within you, that is not a coincidence, friend. That is a message. That God sees you. He knows and he cares very, very much. And the answer isn't always that God's going to explain everything, that he's going to answer every prayer in every way that you want. Want. Sometimes the answer is just that. He will stay. He will never leave you. He will never forsake you. And he stays. Even when we're grieving, even when we're angry, when we're disappointed, and when our faith seems fragile. And Tammy's story has reminded us that God's presence is not dependent upon our ability to feel it. Silence does not mean absence. The Bible is filled with stories, as Tammy shared with you today, of people who grieved and waited and doubted and lost things. And we see God meeting people in the middle of their stories, not just at the end of the happy ending. And so as you're approaching, as we're approaching 9 11, I pray that God would use this day to remind you that he cares. He sees, he knows. The book is called where are you now? God Discovering the unshakable truth. Truth that you're never alone by Tammy Trent. I pray that the Lord will bless you and keep you. Make his face shine upon you. I'll see you back here next time. We'd like to thank our sponsors, including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion. And every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR the views and
Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Everyday Preborn Network helps mothers facing unexpected pregnancies discover hope through ultrasound
Dr. Jessica Peck: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, preborn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection. And the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby or visit preborn.com/AFR this year, America celebrates its 250th birthday. Two and centuries of courage, innovation, faith and freedom. But what will the next 250 years hold? The next generation could hold the next Billy Graham, the next Rosa Parks, the next Ronald Reagan, the next child whose life will impact generations. But first, they must be given the chance to live it. I couldn't imagine my life without him. Because of them.
Dr. Jessica Peck: he's here. We're gonna get through it and it's gonna be okay. Everyday PreBorn Network clinics helps mothers facing unexpected pregnancies discover hope through a free ultrasound. When a mother sees her baby and that tiny heartbeat, her baby is twice as likely to be given the gift of life. What story will God write through America's next generation? In honor of America's 250th anniversary, we're asking friends to consider a special gift of $250. Your gift can help provide nearly nine life saving ultrasounds. Dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250 baby. Or donate securely at preborn.com/AFR that's preborn.com/AFR afr Every gift is tax- deductible.
: Hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show, prescribing hope for healthy families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you prescribing hope for healthy families.
September 11th, 2001 changed people all over the country in profound ways
And as we are progressing through this year and on this day, there is a big, big day on the calendar that is looming. And there are some dates that just become etched into our collective memory. Sometimes as a nation, sometimes as a world, each generation has their own. Here in America, we know the greatest generation asks, where were you on VE Day? And the baby boomers all talk about where were you when JFK was assassinated? The Gen Xers ask, where were you when the Challenger exploded? And if you're a millennial or you were alive during this time, that pivotal moment for a generation was of course 9, 11 September 11, 2001. And for an entire generation and the generations previously, that day, it used to be just a date on the calendar, but now it's a moment that we remember almost viscerally where we were, what we were doing, who we were with, and really how the world seemed to change in a matter of hours. And we tend to think about September 11th with Geographic Pictures in our mind. We picture New York City, bright blue day with clouds of smoke. We picture the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, a field in Pennsylvania. We remember those images that came across our television screens and really the profound national grief that followed. But one of the things about tragedies like this is that it doesn't stay confined to the place where it happens. And September 11th changed people all over the country and impacted people in so many more ways, which we've seen documentarians spend decades now document the ways that people's lives have been impacted. And for today's guest, September 10th and 11th, 2001, was not just a day of national loss, but a day of personal loss. We're talking today to Tammy Trent. You may remember her as a Christian music recording artist and her husband, Trent, of 11 years. He lost his life in a scuba diving accident in Jamaica on September 10. And while the nation was experiencing that unimaginable collective trauma, for Tammy, that had a much more personal, personal lens on it. And it gives her a unique perspective for all of us who have ever looked at our own circumstances. September 11th or not, any difficulty, hardship in your life, and you've asked God, where are you? Because sometimes faith isn't tested by an intellectual question. It's tested by a phone call or a diagnosis, A, betrayal, a death, an unanswered prayer, or a life that you thought you had that all of a sudden disappeared. And that's one most difficult questions, but gut wrenching questions that we see in the Psalms. God, where are you? If God, if you care, if you love us, why does this hurt so much? And Tammy has spent decades wrestling honestly with these questions. She's an author and a speaker and a television host. She's ministered now for more than 31 years. And after her husband's death, she walked through a season of profound grief and healing before she returned to the stage and spent is now spent years as a featured speaker and performer with Women of Faith. Now she has written her story in a new book that is coming out. You can pre order it now. It's called where are you now, God? Discovering the unshakable truth that you are never alone. And she is inviting Christians to do what sometimes we're afraid to do. Ask the hard questions. Not because questioning God means you've abandoned your faith, but sometimes honesty is the doorway to a much deeper, more meaningful faith. And her message is not that Christians are going to receive a neat little explanation for every painful thing that happens. It's that even when God feels silent, he is not absent. So today, I want to tell you we are going to deal very honestly in this conversation with some really difficult subjects like death and grief and loss and abuse and trauma. And Tammy's story has those elements in it. But I just encourage you to use wisdom and discretion as you listen, Listen. And if you're walking through a season that's hard to reach out to someone for help and hope. And Tammy, I'm so grateful that you're here today to provide both of those things to our listeners. Thank you so much for joining us and spending time with us today.
Tammy Trent shares her story of overcoming grief and brokenness
Tammy Trent: I am so honored to be with you. I am sitting here in my home in Nashville, Tennessee, in my study, and listening to you speak, listening to you set up this time that we're about to have together. And I'm moved. I'm. I'm emotionally moved by it. it's my story you're sharing. You're talking about my life. And I think there's something so, profound when, When I'm sitting on the other side listening to somebody talk about me, my life, and, and setting the tone and setting the stage, it can be overwhelming because there's some part of it where I listen and think, I still cannot believe that this is my story. I can't believe that this is my path, my journey. And yet, at the same time, I can hold the tension of hurt and brokenness with. With the hope and the gratefulness of what God has done in my life and how far he's brought me. But it has not come easy, and it hasn't come without its challenges, uncertainties, and questions for God. And I'm truly honored to be sitting in this space with you. And I hope that it encourages somebody today that might be wrestling with their own questions right now.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Tammy, I can only share those elements of your story because you have shared them so graciously, so transparently, so authentically. And I know that you've told your story many, many times now on the stage, and it, just as part of your personal testimony, but it still costs you something to share that grief and that pain. And I do not take that lightly. And I know that the way that even now that you're spe, there are already people leaning in, saying, okay, I feel like I'm in the valley. How can I get to that place? And.
Tammy writes about growing up, finding the Lord, and that diving accident
And Tammy, before we talk about that tragic day that your husband, Trent, lost his life and that diving accident, that wasn't the first time in your life that you had experienced hardship or trial or trauma or tragedy or pain. And you went through some really difficult things as a child. But even then, I can see through reading your story, through hearing you, your faith was being forged. Talk about little girl Tammy growing up, finding the Lord, and the events of your life that led up to that moment in September.
Tammy Trent: Yeah, it's so interesting that you'd set it up that way. I think in my life now, at 58 years old, in the last few years, I've. I've been faced with the. The moments of going back and looking at my younger self, looking at moments that happened in my life, things that I never dealt with, things that I. I tucked away, things that I put under a rug, things that I never wanted to talk about. And so now, later in life, I felt like, especially with all these different questions that I have in this season and other people, I thought, you know what? It's only fair that I go back and kind of look at some of the things in my own childhood. It's only fair to me, to find healing, or have I found healing? What was the root of certain things in my life? When I was a little girl, I didn't even know there was a root. I don't even think I heard the word there's a root. so I think I just started uncovering some stuff as I began to write this book. And I hit it hard out of the box. Like, I started talking about things I have never talked about with anyone except for my mother, my sister, my best friend, just like, 10 years ago. But beyond them and that experience, I had never shared it. So I go back to those early years, of divorce, within my family, feeling like I was truly stuck in the middle of a broken home and wanting a father so desperately in my life every day, and not having that and trying to navigate that as a little girl and how it already began to shape me and affect me as a little girl. But again, not knowing there's a root, not knowing there was a thing I just was trying to survive and not knowing even what was going on in my little heart at six years old and seven years old, looking back now, I can totally See patterns, that I was beginning to form how things were beginning to shape me as a little girl. Feeling things of maybe a little bit of abandonment, but more so the brokenness of a family and a father's love not being there. And it was shortly after that that I went through some sexual trauma in my life as a little girl. And And that's something I carried my whole life and didn't talk to anybody about it. I think the shame, but more of the guilt or more of even for me, the unknown not understanding and the confusion that began to see set in, during that season in my life. And even as a young girl, I, I know now I can identify it, but then I couldn't identify that I was beginning to struggle with identity in my life as, as a little girl because I really didn't know at 6, 7, 8 years old, with identity in Christ even really meant. So again, I'm just carrying all these little bits and pieces of hurt and pain and disappointment and brokenness and an abuse in my life into every season of my life. And then I meet this amazing kid in my youth group when I'm 15 years old and I'm allowed to date him when I'm 16. He ends up being an incredible guy, an incredible covering in my life. So good that I'm like, I don't want to talk to him about these other things in my life that, that he would maybe think less of me then. I need to be a perfect picture of the perfect catch even for his family. And because they came from money, they came from education, they came from a lot. And I felt less than. So I'm like, I'm not going to tell him all this stuff. He thinks I'm, he thinks I'm pretty special right now. So we start dating. I carry a lot of those wounds with me, but I can see how they're even beginning to affect some of my marriage a little bit in the way I trust them, maybe even the way I treat them a lot of different things. and I, I jumped right into the marriage because we dated for seven and a half years. I went off to Bible college and came back and thought, I don't want to live without this guy another day. So we got married and, and even though I, I can go back and trace even some of our dating relationship, the way that we walk that out the way again, I can go back to the way I responded to things, the way I might have treated him, in. In certain situations, trusting abandonment, not Thinking he was going to be around forever kind of thing. So in our marriage, I carried all of that in there as well. And in not opening up about stuff, but honestly, it was one of the safest places my heart had ever known was in this marriage covered by this guy. It was the first time I'd ever truly known love. Deeply, consistently, faithfully, without condition, without keeping the score. Like, this guy was steady for me and faithful. And he loved the Lord, so he led me well. And yet it was everything I took for granted in our marriage. yet never thinking I would live a day without this kind of love in my life. I signed my first record deal in 1995. I took his first name as my last name. Together we were Tammy and Trent Linderink. But I became Tammy Trent on the platform. He started, traveling with me in ministry, he started managing me, and he became my full time ministry partner. So we went wherever God opened up a door. We just traveled, we went, we flew, we took a bus, we took a boat. Wherever it was, we went because we wanted to serve people and love people well. And I could sense, even in this season of being around him my whole life, there was just little bits and pieces of healing and wholeness that was beginning to take shape. And yet there was always that foundation of hurt and pain that I never dealt with. So, again, I'm holding attention of all of those things at the same m time.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Tammy, just hearing you talk about it, it just, it makes my heart ache a little bit. And I'm so grateful for the way that you're talking about it because you shared your age. We are in the same generation. And Tammy, our generation just didn't talk about things like that. It was really. We didn't understand what trauma did to the brain. We didn't understand the ways that God had designed our body biologically to protect ourselves from trauma, to go into a protective mode of the way it impacts memory, the way it impacts attachment. And to hear you talking about those things, I know that you sharing your story is going to bring freedom to other people who are listening, who have experienced that trauma, that grief and that pain. And to know that there's ways that we can go back and that we can find healing from that is amazing. And Tammy, as you're telling your story, you know, we started with the, with the spoiler. We know, we know what happened. We know the terrible tragedy that, that Trent dies. And we're about to talk about that. And yet, Tammy, and yet what you started your story with was still that God is still good, that God is still for you, that your faith is still there, though imperfect and in the middle of messiness and brokenness, it is still there. And we're up against our first break, but when we come back, we'll talk about that fateful trip to Jamaica and your experience and what that was like and the ways that God was with you.
Tammy Trent's new book, Where are you now, God?
And one of the things I really appreciate about reading this book to my listeners. Where are you now, God? Discovering the unshakable truth that you're never alone. You can pre order it now. I appreciate it. She doesn't offer a simplistic answer. She doesn't say, if you have enough faith, everything's going to be fine. She just consistently points you to a God who meets you right in the middle of those messy questions. And that is really important because I know a lot of you aren't asking theoretical questions about suffering. You're living the very real realities of that. And I have found such help and such hope and the testimony of Tammy Trent. And when we come back, we'll talk more with her. And there is someone in your life who just needs you to put this book in their hands and just say, hey, I see your pain. I see what you're going through. I just thought this might encourage you. We'll have more words to encourage you right on the other side of this break. Don't go away. We'll be right back.
Without people like you, this podcast would not exist
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Make It Well by MercyMe: Making well with my soul don't let me face this loneliness alone May thinking well with my soul I need a peace that only heaven knows Jesus, could you please just sit and cry with me till I can sing? Till I can sing? It is well with my m soul it is well with my m soul Whatever my life, you are still my God it is well, it is well
Dr. Jessica Peck: with my soul welcome back, friends. That is make it well. By MercyMe Of course. Those lyrics are inspired by one of the most beloved hymns of all time, it is well. And if you're not familiar with that story, those lyrics were pinned by a man named Horatio Spafford, who lost everything in a Chicago fire and then lost all of his children in a ship that sank afterwards. And as he was sailing past the point where his children had perished, penned those words. And it is that kind of hope in the midst of that kind of suffering that gets the world's attention. People understand anger and bitterness and pain, but they don't understand peace in the middle of pain. And today we're talking about that. And as we continue, we're talking about some really tough themes of grief and death and loss and abuse and unanswered prayer. And I know that can be especially tender for anyone who's walking through something tough right now. But I really hope that you won't change the dial. I hope that you'll stay with us and hear Tammy's remarkable story, not of a, happy ending, but a hopeful ending. We're talking today to Tammy Trent. You may recognize her as a Christian music recording artist. She is a speaker, an author, and she is an author of a new book that is coming out called where are you now, God? Discerning the unshakable truth that you're never alone. I've read this book, and it really. It really got a hold of me. And I know that there's a particular kind of exhaustion that just comes from feeling like you're in a season of struggle or grief or pain. And we can handle a lot when we know that there's an expiration date, when we know something's going to be over. But what happens when the diagnosis doesn't change, when that relationship doesn't get restored, when the person we've lost isn't coming back this side of heaven? That prayer doesn't get answered. And Tammy says story really speaks into that tension. And Tammy, we were just talking about you losing your precious husband, Trent on September 10th. September 11th, 2001. Yes, that was the day of 9, 11. And while we were thinking of New York skylines, you were experiencing that day in a much different lens. And so I would love to just give you the invitation to share in whatever way you would like about Trent, his life and his loss.
Tammy Trent: I sure will. So we had been together for 18 years at this point, dated seven and a half, married for 11, had a record deal, about two albums that had come out. We were traveling the world together, ministry. We've moved to Nashville, built our first home here. We're here for two years. Got a call to go to Jamaica on a mission trip. Thought, man, this is a great season to go, because we kind of also wonder what's next. What does God have next for us as a couple? Is it starting a family? Is it a mission field? Is it writing a book, another album? Like, what is it, God? We just want to be in your will. Because I think when we're in your will, truly, that's when I find the greatest peace. That's when I know my purpose. That's when I know my identity. That's when I know so much clearer who you are. And I can listen to you better when I'm walking right with you aligned, with you in your will. So let's take off to Jamaica and let's seek God and say, like, what's next?
Trent was free diving in the Blue Lagoon when he disappeared
So we took off on vacation for one week before we were to begin our mission trip on the other side of the island. So on this day in between, we traveled to this place called the Blue Lagoon. Trent wanted to free dive in the Blue Lagoon. He'd been a certified diver since the age of 12, so he wanted to dive in the Blue Lagoon with his. With his underwater scooter. And that day we headed there to the edge of the water. And, in the middle of this lagoon was a hole that went down about 100, 190 maybe to 240ft deep. And he had researched it, he had learned about it, and he said, I want to explore in the Blue Lagoon. So we're sitting there on the edge of the water. He suits up. He says, I'm going to be gone for 15 minutes, and when I get back, we'll go hang out and do something that you want to do. He got into the water, and halfway between the dock and that hole, he lifted up his head out of the water and he waved goodbye to me, and I waved back to him. And then he sunk beneath the surface and he was gone. I had no idea at that moment that that would be the last time I would ever see Trent again. I watched him come up and down for breath every few minutes because he was free diving that afternoon. That's when you hold your breath, you go in the water without oxygen. And he could hold his breath up to about three minutes underwater. So I watched him from afar, maybe every once in a while, come up and down. And then I just lost track of him. So 15 minutes turned into 30, into 45, into an hour. And I realized, man, I hadn't seen Trent. So I got close to the edge of the water and I started to look out in this lagoon, and I still saw nothing. And I remember at that moment, fear began to grip every part of my body. I was beginning to feel hopeless. I Knew something had shifted. I knew something had changed, and I couldn't do anything about it. I felt so. So completely crippled at that moment. And I remember going into this back room of this restaurant by myself, and I started to, lift up my hands and I started to pray. And it's like the only prayer that would even come out of my mouth was, help. God, help me. I don't know what to do, but I need help. And I need you to fix this. I need you to help me. I'm not smart enough. I'm not brave enough. I just. I feel numb. I feel lost. And I don't know how to fix any of this. And I need you to step in right now like you promised you would. And I need you to carry me right now. God, fix this. And I called in a dive team that began to search for Trent. And they searched through the night until it got too dark. And they said, tammy, we have to call the search off. We can't find them. We'll start again in the morning. And I went up to a home of two doctors that watched out for me that night. And the next morning, the doctor came into my room and he said, tammy, come quickly and look at the television screen. And I walked into that room the morning of September 11, 2001, as the second plane plowed into the Twin Towers in NewSong York City. And I thought for the first time in m my life, like, this must be the end of the world, because nothing made sense to me. America's falling apart. My own personal world is falling apart, like God, where are you in all of this? Where are you? I can't find you. I can't see you. I don't sense your goodness in any of this right now. And. And then I got the call that my family was grounded on planes all across the country. Not one person could get to me. And again, I thought, God, why? Like, how could this be good for my life? And then I got the next call that they found Trent in the Blue Lagoon. He was still hanging on to his underwater scooter. They found him about a hundred feet deep. And, he took his last breath. Something had struck him over the head, which I don't know what it was, but it was enough to knock him out. And he took his last breath, and he didn't survive. And I remember getting that news and just falling to the ground. I didn't know how I would survive. I just cried and I cried and I wept. And I was trying desperately to find the presence of God in that moment. And it was two days later that I was in a hotel room. And I found myself in a bathroom just clean to the vanity, just crying out to God, I need you. Where are you? I need you. Send me somebody could you just send me somebody that would hold me? I miss my mom, my sister, my best friend. Just send me somebody that would hold me I, I'm aching. It's the disappointment, the unmet expectations, like all the hurt everything is, is crashing on me right now. And the thought that I have to now walk out life by myself to try to carry this. I, I, it's too much for me to bear. Could you just send me somebody to hold me? And I remember walking out of that room and, hearing somebody in the adjoining room. I made my way over there to that opening in the doorway. Now saw this beautiful Jamaican woman standing there in a Hilton housekeeping outfit. And she looked at me, she said, I've been trying to get to you. I could hear you crying and I've been trying to get to you. And then she said, could I just come in and hold you? And it was an instant answer to my prayer. I knew at that moment, as she walked in and wrapped her arms around me, she began to pray for me. She had no idea what was going on in my life. I had no idea she was a believer. But she started to pray for me.
Tammy writes about the loss of her husband Trent in her new book
And I knew somehow in that moment, I knew it was a settling of my soul, that I wouldn't just survive, but somehow I would overcome and it wouldn't happen overnight. That God was going to take me on a journey of healing that I had never experienced before, and that my testimony would somehow become hope for somebody else that feels stuck, that feels abandoned, that doesn't know how to find God or the presence of God in the worst moments of their lives. And that became my calling, that became my step in. And I came home from that time and the healing began. And it has been 25 years without Trent. And I don't think I will ever not be able to tell that story and not feel punched in the gut. Oh, I'm healed. God has brought great healing in my life. I can shout it from a mountaintop, but just because I feel the ache sometimes doesn't mean that God has not healed my life. That that's the, the realness of what I've walked through and the massive, enormous loss that I feel every single day from this guy's presence in my life. But I can still rejoice in the goodness and faithfulness of God that has brought me to this place today. And, you know, people talk about the presence of God, and it is one of the things that has rescued me so deeply. And that's why this book is so centered around that message of discovering the unshakable truth, that you're never alone, that God never abandons us. There's a promise after promise after promise where he speaks directly to us like, I will never leave you to carry this. You are not alone. I didn't promise you you wouldn't have trouble, but I did promise you that I'd be there for you. And you can take heart that I've overcome the world like, not I will one day, but I have now. And so this is not going to be an easy journey this side of heaven, but somehow you will get through it. But the presence of God, the thing that I've learned is God's. God's presence is a truth before you can even experience it. So God's presence is a truth before it's an experience. So some people say, I've never known. I've never known the presence of God. It's a truth. So you have to land on the truth of God's word. And once you get that into your spirit, then, I think, then becomes the experience. Because feelings can come and go, but his presence always remains the same, no matter how we feel.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Tammy, you speak with such confidence. And yet I feel like people listening will say, how. How can you. How can you be so confident and thinking the prayer that you want answered is for Trent to be rescued, Trent to be found, Trent to be alive, not for a housekeeper to come. Although I. I cried when I read that in your book. It was so beautiful to see that, Tammy. And, you. You're 25 years later now. What does it look like to take those first few steps about just seeing God's providence and sending someone to you? He says he will never leave us, never forsake us. And he gave you someone tangible to express his love. What does those. What are those first few days look like? I can't even imagine, even for you. Especially trying to get home when all of the flights are grounded and you are just so completely alone. And especially after feeling like you had experienced tragedy in your childhood. But here was Trent. Here was your happy ending. That was all good. You were on a mission trip in Jamaica. It wasn't even like you were just. Just there just for fun. You were there on mission. And then to see that loss, what do those first few. Few days, few weeks, few months, what does that Part of the grief.
Tammy Trent: Look like you want the honest word. Awful. Absolutely horrific. Awful. Kicked and screamed. Hated it. Hated the new plan. Hated that everything changed. Hated the new normal. Didn't know what to do. Felt lost. wondered how I would survive on my own. How will I pay my bills? How will I travel? I mean, everything. Every question. Especially us girls, us women that have. When. When there's a man that provides, it takes care of that God has set into our lives in place like Trent was. And then it's just gone. I didn't get to say goodbye one last time. I didn't get to say I love you. It's just shifted. It's changing. So, yes. Now what do you do with it? It was. It was awful. And, and so what I did with that tension of the hurt and the awful and the, oh, I hate this is. How do I hold hope at the same time? Because I think it's possible to do the same.
Tammy Trent says she's honest with God about her pain and doubts
So that became my. My fight for my spiritual life of holding those two things, like giving myself permission. Like, pain is real, but so is hope. So I'm acknowledging my pain. I'm talking to Jesus about the ache that I feel. I'm honest with him. I'm kicking the lawnmower when I'm trying to mow the grass. I'm shouting. I'm, doing all the feels. I have such an honest relationship with God that, that he probably says, hey, put a filter on it, Tammy. But I. He gets all of it from me. But I love that because I feel safe with him. I know that he's not put off by my doubts. He's not put off by my questions. He's not put off by my. My anger at times. I. I know that I'm working through constantly things. I'm a work in progress. But I love that he doesn't say, I'm, out of here till you get your act together. I have always had a healthy understanding of God's love for me. And I think you have to almost start there. We can all, all settle on, oh, he's. He's my savior, died on the cross. Thank you for that. But sometimes we miss the. The depth of his love. And sometimes it's hard for us to wrap our. Our heads around the fact that he loves us so unconditionally. And if you don't know the love of the Father in your life, I think that becomes such a point of struggle to trust him, to grow in your faith. And so I've also learned, even in that awful season of Putting the pieces back together again. Learning to trust God when the answers didn't come for me. But also learning that my faith was not built on circumstances. My faith is not built on the outcome of what I hope for. It's built on the knowing that I know who Christ is in my life and what his promise says. If I can go back to, Let me think of, Psalms 3418. The Lord is near to the brokenhearted, and he saves. He saves those whose spirits are crushed. Okay, there's one huge promise for me, Tammy.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You have so many more words of encouragement. I have goosebumps. You're so right. The Lord is close to the brokenhearted. He welcomes our honesty. We see that poured out throughout the Psalms. If you think that it's not okay to be honest with God, read the Psalms. And you can't heal what you're not willing to name. And when it's hard, we say that it's hard. And we'll talk more about where is God now? In the middle of whatever you're facing. More with Tammy Trent on the other side of this break. Don't go away.
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Rescue by Jordan St. Cyr: oh, I've been desperate cried those loud prayers like Job on his knees saying, lord, I need more than a little help I've been surrounded felt fear on all sides like Daniel and the lions I know when I, fight, I don't fight by myself When I needed rescue Jesus, you came came through oh, in my heart is season your promise hell. Ah, true and every time I've given in, Lord, you've proven again that you're still my savior. Now, Jesus, you came through when I needed rest. Rescue.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Rescue by Jordan St. Cyr. And I know there are some of you listening who are begging God to rescue you from whatever circumstance you're facing right now, whether that's loss or betrayal or pain or abuse or trial, whatever it is that you're going through. When we are in the middle of pain, we want so desperately for God to rescue us. We're talking today to Tammy Trent about her new book coming out. It's called where are you now, God? Discovering the unshakable truth that you're never alone. You can pre order it. You may need this in your life. I guarantee you, you know, someone in your life who needs this message of hope, just put it in their ho. in their hand, send it to their house and just say, hey, I thought this might encourage you. That's all that you need to say. We're talking today about some tough things. Tammy has shared very transparently the loss of her beloved husband, Trent, on a tragic diving accident on September 10, 2001. And while the attention of the world was in NewSong City, her world was falling apart a world away in Jamaica. And she shared her journey of hope and healing. And she's talking about asking it, naming it, reclaiming it, how to ask those hard questions. How do we name that grief and trauma and disappointment or shame or rejection or unanswered prayers? How do we name those honestly before the Lord, and then begin to reclaim your identity and your purpose and your future? Because there is a very different place of faith than just living in survival mode and pretending everything is fine. Biblical faith does not require you to deny pain. We have a savior who is not unacquainted with suffering. He suffered, and he is close to the brokenhearted, as Tammy has told us. And again and again, Scripture gives us people who cry out to God in confusion and grief and fear and disappointment and unfairness, and God meets them right there. Tammy, how do you see God meeting you in the midst of unanswered prayers? And how do you move that faith from being fragile to being strong and resilient? What does that look like walking that out?
Tammy Trent: Such good questions. And can I. Can I interject and say something here, too? Yes, because we talk about questions, right? So a lot of people, even think, like, can I even ask God the hard questions? Many people have been raised in a church where they also think like I can't ask God, I'm not allowed.
Dr. Jessica Peck: He. He's.
Tammy Trent: He's the Almighty, the sovereign God. But I'm telling you, Jesus, even dying on the cross, right? He said, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? So even Jesus, just as you said, Jesus is no stranger to pain and weeping and losing friends and all the things he understands what you're going through. He totally gets it. So you must know that you were in the best place possible to bring whatever you have, whatever you're carrying today at the foot of the cross. This book is. Touches on so many different things. The diagnosis, the divorce, the wayward child, the finances, the betrayal, the rejection. And you're right, the, the ultimate reclaiming this in your life. How can you name these things, lay them down, ask the Father the questions, but then begin to walk in true freedom and breakthrough in your life so that you don't have to keep carrying this wound over and over again. Where the enemy tries to tell you the lie of who you are and the shame on your life and the how guilty you should feel, feel for this and the way something was handled years ago in your life. It is time for you to reclaim who God says you are. Step into your proper identity and your purpose and knowing what that is. And when you do, I'm telling you, you will have the upper hand over the voice of the enemy. And you will tell him, I am not listening to you anymore. You don't get to keep me in a box. I am breaking through and I'm going to live a fulfilled life in Jesus name. No matter how, how hurt I feel, the ache that I feel, I will get through this. So this book will guide you. It gives you tools, biblical stories that align with stories that you can relate to so that you don't feel isolated and that you can keep growing in your faith.
Man, unanswered prayers are hard. They are really, really hard
Man, unanswered prayers are hard. They are really, really hard. And I think it's the exhaustion of praying the same prayer over and over again. And it's not just the emotional fatigue that you feel, but it's. People feel like, where is God? Like, I, I feel like he's silent, he's not there, he's not listening to me. But the thing that I've learned is that delayed answers are not always an indication of God's absence in your life. There's never a time when Jesus is not speaking. He's always present in your life. And so sometimes his greatest work isn't just changing our circumstances, is sustaining us while we wait. On God through the different seasons we're walking through and trusting Him. Him with all the pieces of our lives.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Tammy, that's exactly the opposite of what the world tells you to do. The world tells you to seek justice, to help yourself, to, you know, do some. Some things that aren't necessarily bad. We want to have healing, but outside of your reunification with God, the strengthening of your faith, that hope is so shallow. And I remember listening to the testimony of a man who talked about his young child, child being killed in a very tragic accident. Such an unfair, horrible thing that just happened out of the blue. And he talked about being in the midst of his pain and his grief and being in his room and just wailing on the floor, just laying face down. And he said that the Lord told him, you need to get up and you need to worship me. And I think to so many people that that would sound like, oh, what kind of, you know, narcissistic being would that be? But this man said he knew that he was developing a root of bitterness and anger towards God, and God did not want that for him, that he needed God's strength and his vision and his purpose. And. And he wanted to be with him. And he got up and he. He worshiped God in that moment, and he said that was when that he. He didn't give up. He let go. And that's what you talked about in your book.
Tammy says worship helps calm her heart when prayers seem unanswered
And I want to know, Tammy, worship has been such a big part of your life, whether through song or through speaking or just the way that you live your life. How has worship helped realign your heart when those emotions are so overwhelming over those prayers that seem unanswered at the time?
Tammy Trent: Goodness. I think it's just honestly surrender. Worship is surrender for me. It takes my mind and my. My heart off of myself and my circumstances, and somehow it settles my soul in those moments of total let go and surrender and, and trusting, the presence of God in my life, that. That he has something good for me, that he promises goodness. So I think for me, it just, it. It sets a tone and an atmosphere. I think about worship for me in that moment. And it was in April, my birthday of this year, and I've had the word cancer spoken over my life a handful of times, and I've had a few skin cancers removed from. From my body. And I remember, getting a biopsy on the end of my nose in April. She was so concerned that it might be cancer. And I remember carrying the weight of that. And I go every four months for a Full body skin check. And every four months in between, I carry the weight of wondering if I'm going to hear that it's something more serious this time. But I remember coming into my bedroom thinking of worship. And I remember carrying this weight every day and what if. And oh, the nose and God, why? And all, the, the things. But I remember kneeling down and I got on my knees in my bedroom. And I lifted up my hands and I surrendered. And I said, Jesus, I know you love me. I know you have good things for me. I know you know the weight that I'm carrying. You're fully aware of this. And that I'm scared and that I don't know what would happen. If it's cancer. I don't know what kind of surgery involved. I don't know, know how it would change the way I look. If I had cancer on my nose and I had to remove it, like all the things, I just surrendered it. And I said, God, I worship you in this moment. The Lord of my life, the maker of all things good in my life. You created me for good. You know everything that's going to happen in my life. So if you know about this, then I have to trust that you also know the outcome. So I surrender this and I trust, trust you with it. No matter what. I know that you will carry me through the whole thing. Even if it's not what I hope it will be. I know it's not the end of my story. Just like the story of the road to Emmaus. These guys were so disappointed in what they thought and what they hoped was going to be. They thought Jesus dying on the cross like he was dead. And they thought, and they hoped he was the Messiah. They thought he was the one to redeem Israel. But now he was dead. And they're walking the road to Emmaus, kicking up the dust, disappointed, so upset, thinking, oh, this didn't go the way we wanted. We, hoped he was the one. And this guy catches up to them saying, what's, what's going on? What are you guys talking about? So we asked them the question. He gives them room to talk and he listens to them as they share all their disappointment, their venting their unmet expectations, everything. And they keep walking. And then this guy also challenged them a little bit, tries. He goes back into scriptures and, and, and talks about Moses and the prophets and trying to connect the dots for them. But they are so disappointed and overwhelmed in their disappointment that they can't even, they can't even hear what he has to say, but it's getting dark. They loving his company, so they say, come on in to have dinner with us. So he comes on in, they sit at the table, and this guy reaches for the bread and he blesses it and he breaks it. And all of a sudden, something shifts in that moment. These guys are looking at this man and they're like, what is different about him, the way he's breaking the bread? There's something so familiar, and all of a sudden it's just revealed to them. It's Jesus. It's Jesus setting right here. And I'm sure they're freaking out, going, I cannot believe this. And just like that, Jesus disappears. He's gone. They push back from the table, and they're like, are you kidding? We're not, Our hearts burning within us. When he was talking to us on the road, like, did we not recognize? But it was like, no. Like, we knew something was different in his presence, but we didn't know. We didn't recognize it was him because we were just so disappointed in. In the. In what might be or the. The things we hope for. But they push back, and in their excitement, like, we got to go back to Jerusalem and tell everybody he's alive. And the truth is that the end of the story, what we thought was the end of the story was not the end at all. It's the beginning with this beginning of something great. And I think that's the biblical truth of that story. The road to Emmaus is that sometimes we are so disappointed that we can't recognize Jesus, but. But we have no idea sometimes that he's the very one walking with us every step that we take. So you are never alone. Trust me when I tell you these are real stories from the Bible, real people that experience the same kinds of things we're experiencing today. But the truth of that particular story is that Jesus never left their side. That was his promise. Then it's his promise today. He's not going to leave your side. So. So even in a moment of worship, get there. Get to that place of laying it all down before the one who would do more than just get you through the storm.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Tammy, my eyes betray me as you speak, because what you're saying is so countercultural and it doesn't make sense. And you think, how can you find that peace? But then when you see that people.
Tammy, I'm convinced Trent's death has saved and will save many lives
People want that, people want that kind of unshakable truth, and you remind me of the story of Joseph in the Bible who was mistreated by his brother, brothers Thrown in a pit and sold into slavery. And when his brothers come back, you know, I remember reading in the Scriptures about how he withdrew to a private place and he wept because he was so emotional. It wasn't like this made for tv moving ending where it's like, oh, here come the brothers, and here's the happy ending. No, it was messy. But he said also he said what Satan intended for evil, God intended for good and the saving of. Of many lives. And Tammy, I am convinced, listening here today, I'm convinced that Trent's death has, saved and will save many lives. I believe that your testimony will bring people to an eternal saving faith in Christ, and that is the legacy that he can have. And as people are listening to the hope that you profess so confidently but so honestly and so authentically, that is what is going to draw people to Christ. And Tammy, I'd love to give one last invitation to people who may be in the middle of that grief journey, who haven't come 25 years or as far as you have. What do you invite them to do? In reading your book and hearing your story, what is your invitation?
Tammy Trent: Ultimately, I hope people walk away knowing they're truly never alone. Not just because I said it, but because they felt it. They felt and had an encounter with God, just like I have. I want them to discover that even in the middle of their hardest seasons and hardest questions, deepest grief, their most uncertain moments, that God is still with them, working m in ways they might not even be able to see yet. I hope they find a deeper faith, one that doesn't ignore the hard stuff, but finds God right in the middle of it all.
Dr. Jessica Peck: If your heart is burning within you, that is not a coincidence, friend. That is a message. That God sees you. He knows and he cares very, very much. And the answer isn't always that God's going to explain everything, that he's going to answer every prayer in every way that you want. Want. Sometimes the answer is just that. He will stay. He will never leave you. He will never forsake you. And he stays. Even when we're grieving, even when we're angry, when we're disappointed, and when our faith seems fragile. And Tammy's story has reminded us that God's presence is not dependent upon our ability to feel it. Silence does not mean absence. The Bible is filled with stories, as Tammy shared with you today, of people who grieved and waited and doubted and lost things. And we see God meeting people in the middle of their stories, not just at the end of the happy ending. And so as you're approaching, as we're approaching 9 11, I pray that God would use this day to remind you that he cares. He sees, he knows. The book is called where are you now? God Discovering the unshakable truth. Truth that you're never alone by Tammy Trent. I pray that the Lord will bless you and keep you. Make his face shine upon you. I'll see you back here next time. We'd like to thank our sponsors, including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion. And every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR the views and
Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Jessica talks with Tammy Trent about the healing journey from tragedy to restoration.
https://giving.preborn.com/preborn/checkout/afa?sc=43490GF2022&campaign=404750
Chapters:
(00:00) Everyday Preborn Network helps mothers facing unexpected pregnancies discover hope through ultrasound
(01:56) September 11th, 2001 changed people all over the country in profound ways
(06:18) Tammy Trent shares her story of overcoming grief and brokenness
(08:05) Tammy writes about growing up, finding the Lord, and that diving accident
(15:30) Tammy Trent's new book, Where are you now, God?
(16:32) Without people like you, this podcast would not exist
(21:34) Trent was free diving in the Blue Lagoon when he disappeared
(26:54) Tammy writes about the loss of her husband Trent in her new book
(31:24) Tammy Trent says she's honest with God about her pain and doubts
(33:55) As an AFA insider, you'll stay up to date on important issues
(40:17) Man, unanswered prayers are hard. They are really, really hard
(42:12) Tammy says worship helps calm her heart when prayers seem unanswered
(47:42) Tammy, I'm convinced Trent's death has saved and will save many lives
Live
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